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15:43:11 <sajkaj> agenda?
15:43:24 <sajkaj> Meeting: Silver Conformance Options Subgroup
15:43:31 <sajkaj> Date 09 Sep 2021
15:43:38 <sajkaj> Chair: sajkaj
15:43:45 <sajkaj> rrsagent, make log public
15:44:29 <sajkaj> Agenda+ Agenda Review & Administrative Items
15:44:29 <sajkaj> agenda+ Media Considerations https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Media_Considerations
15:44:32 <sajkaj> agenda+ Other Business
15:44:34 <sajkaj> agenda+ Be Done
15:45:10 <sajkaj> Regrets: Bruce_Bailey
15:45:15 <sajkaj> rrsagent, make minutes
15:45:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/09-silver-conf-minutes.html sajkaj
15:57:20 <Wilco> Wilco has joined #silver-conf
16:01:45 <JF> JF has joined #silver-conf
16:01:54 <jeanne> present+
16:01:59 <Wilco> scribe: Wilco
16:02:01 <Wilco> present+
16:02:49 <PeterKorn> PeterKorn has joined #silver-conf
16:02:54 <PeterKorn> Present+
16:03:00 <Wilco> zakim, take up next
16:03:00 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review & Administrative Items -- taken up [from sajkaj]
16:03:01 <JF> Present+
16:03:14 <sajkaj> present+
16:03:29 <sajkaj> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2021JulSep/0136.html
16:03:40 <Wilco> Janina: Going to talk about media today. We have some implementation of what we started to prototype
16:04:15 <Wilco> ... User generated content passed AGWG's CFC. This will be part of the updated draft publication.
16:04:43 <Wilco> Jeanne: Draft will probably be week 3 or 4 of September.
16:07:34 <Wilco> zakim, take up next
16:07:34 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Media Considerations https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Media_Considerations -- taken up [from sajkaj]
16:08:06 <Wilco> Peter: We left last week with an outline, is that still present?
16:08:34 <Wilco> Janina: The outline is subsumed in the document. A lot of it is gone, some of the language is still there.
16:09:11 <Wilco> Peter: ... reading from document.
16:11:58 <sajkaj> q+
16:15:33 <jeanne> q+ to add requirements to make the media as accessible as possible (media lacking access techniques
16:17:22 <JF> Q+ to comment on capitalization "...for Media Content. Unless media Content ..."
16:18:08 <Wilco> Peter: For legacy media, one thought was to treat it a bit like building codes.
16:18:30 <Wilco> ... When first digitised, or significantly refreshed bring it up to code
16:19:31 <jeanne> q+ to remove the scoring and levels until we have that worked out.  Speculation is distracting.
16:20:52 <Wilco> Janina: This does not read like a conformance section, but that may not be a bad first outing with AGWG. Maybe a little chatty rather than standard speak shows the concepts. A later version can come back with something more conformance-like.
16:22:11 <Wilco> ... Media in publications we have strong allies in EPUB. I think we can point them to thing WCAG can't cover them yet because EPUB hasn't done it yet.
16:22:23 <Wilco> ack saj
16:22:54 <sajkaj> ack sajk
16:22:58 <sajkaj> ack jean
16:22:58 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to add requirements to make the media as accessible as possible (media lacking access techniques and to remove the scoring and levels until we have that worked
16:23:01 <Zakim> ... out.  Speculation is distracting.
16:23:29 <Wilco> Jeanne: The editors note, in the last paragraph it mentions informing users before access. I think we want to add the phrase "make it as accessible as possible".
16:23:38 <sajkaj> q?
16:24:00 <JF> +1 to Jeanne
16:24:02 <Wilco> ... I would like it if we could remove references to scoring / levels. We shouldn't discuss this until it is worked out.
16:24:36 <Wilco> q+ to answer as accessible as possible
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16:26:18 <ToddLibby> present+
16:27:08 <Wilco> Peter: ... editing as suggested
16:28:33 <Wilco> Peter: Page saved, any other edits?
16:29:34 <Wilco> JF: In the example, we capitalise "Media". But to the larger issue, it sounds like this is a protocol
16:30:16 <Wilco> ... I'd like to leave the door open for protocols for legacy content, or media that has restrictions.
16:30:35 <Wilco> ... Rather than come up with specific instance, if we had a global protocol, that could be adopted as the larger solution for conformance.
16:31:06 <Wilco> Peter: We may have a group working on that soon.
16:31:10 <PeterKorn> q?
16:31:22 <PeterKorn> ack JF
16:31:22 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to comment on capitalization "...for Media Content. Unless media Content ..."
16:31:52 <sajkaj> q?
16:31:55 <Wilco> Janina: We want mechanisms to reward organisations that do more
16:31:55 <Wilco> ack w
16:31:55 <Zakim> Wilco, you wanted to answer as accessible as possible
16:32:40 <PeterKorn> Wilco: we should avoid "as accessible as possible"; AGWG will hit that text as not being specific enough.
16:33:02 <PeterKorn> ... not sure what jeanne was getting at with that.  Can have exemptions for specific parts, not an exemption for everything
16:33:18 <PeterKorn> jeanne: thinking in terms of, we have guidelines that will have instructions for what they should do.
16:33:24 <JF> Q+
16:33:39 <PeterKorn> ... "accessible as possible" was a vague expression.  For things like 3D immersive technologies, you can make it a11y for people
16:33:52 <PeterKorn> ... with low vision, for people with hearing disabilities; maybe not for screen reader users.
16:34:11 <PeterKorn> ... won't punish you if there isn't a way to make a11y for screen reader users.
16:34:16 <sajkaj> q?
16:34:21 <PeterKorn> ... you must follow the specific guidelines
16:34:30 <PeterKorn> Wilco: e.g. interliner text needs to meet color:contrast
16:34:36 <sajkaj> ack jf
16:34:41 <sajkaj> q+
16:35:26 <Wilco> JF: Specifics steps to conform does not yet have specific steps.
16:35:46 <PeterKorn> q+
16:36:03 <Wilco> ... Bringing it up to code is not a step. I get this is a strawman, but the approach may not be right.
16:36:14 <sajkaj> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2021JulSep/0204.html
16:36:38 <Wilco> Peter: Maybe the heading should be "Treatments by media types". It's what is special about legacy vs common.
16:36:52 <Wilco> JF: Yes, that goes a long way.
16:37:15 <Wilco> Peter: The steps aren't so much specific as they are not common.
16:37:38 <PeterKorn> ack Pet
16:37:44 <JF> Q+
16:38:34 <Wilco> Janina: We did guidelines specifics for user generated.
16:38:57 <Wilco> ... We have different points to make, we're collecting a list of categories we may need guidelines for when relevant.
16:39:17 <Wilco> ... This is a structural thing we're pushing off on the WCAG schema.
16:39:21 <sajkaj> q?
16:39:29 <sajkaj> ack saj
16:39:30 <sajkaj> ack jf
16:40:07 <Wilco> JF: For retitiling the section, maybe the term "objectives". Perhaps this section could be Conformance objectives by content type
16:40:36 <Wilco> ... Replace "specific steps to conform" with "conformance objectives"
16:40:57 <Wilco> ... They are not steps, they are objectives.
16:41:52 <Wilco> Peter: The stuff in brackets is short-hand for steps we want to replace them with
16:43:02 <Wilco> Peter: Let me take a stab at media; Step 1. upon digitisation use all the broadly available techniques.
16:43:40 <Wilco> ... Step 2. When updating the media, add audio description.
16:44:18 <Wilco> JF: I agree with the process, but to what is described here is a process
16:44:22 <Wilco> +1
16:44:52 <Wilco> Janina: The requirements are what can be applied today.
16:45:10 <jeanne> q+ to ask if the problem is the word "steps"
16:45:15 <sajkaj> q?
16:45:47 <jeanne> q-
16:45:49 <Wilco> q+ to suggest expectations
16:47:05 <PeterKorn> Wilco: maybe "expectations" works here, also "outcomes"
16:48:01 <sajkaj> q?
16:48:27 <Wilco> Peter: It does not feel strict, but I don't have a strong opinion on the adverb
16:48:37 <Wilco> ack w
16:48:37 <Zakim> Wilco, you wanted to suggest expectations
16:49:25 <Wilco> Todd: I'm good with objectives
16:50:09 <Wilco> Peter: I propose we take this to AGWG a week from Tuesday.
16:50:25 <Wilco> ... We'll make clear we are looking for directional feedback.
16:50:58 <Wilco> Jeanne: I don't think we'll be able to get on the agenda of the 21st
16:51:25 <Wilco> ... I can put it on the Silver agenda
16:52:19 <Wilco> Janina: I want to get responses on the chattiness. Can we be chattier on first-round explanation
16:52:30 <Wilco> Peter: I think some of it is unhelpful
16:52:37 <Wilco> +1
16:53:24 <Wilco> Wilco: Agreed, we can do it in notes, probably best not to in expected normative content
16:53:36 <JF> Q+
16:54:05 <sajkaj> ack jf
16:54:22 <Wilco> JF: The "We" statements could be made as editors notes. We have at least one editors note that does not stand out.
16:54:50 <Wilco> ... Some of the commentary, I wonder if in the wiki we can call it out more
16:55:35 <Wilco> ... As we get it to share more widely, there would be a value to that.
16:56:58 <Wilco> Janina: We should not have too many editors notes.
16:57:31 <Wilco> ... In common steps, do we put it on web publisher, or facilitate users to complain
16:58:00 <Wilco> Peter: Really don't know. Part is to shift the responsibility where it belongs.
16:58:32 <Wilco> ... Indicating who the copyright holder is may be a problem, I want to be thoughtful about that.
16:58:47 <Wilco> Janina: If you have a copyright, you will declare it.
16:59:38 <Wilco> JF: Would depend on the license agreement, I don't know enough about that. Copyright holders can be different in different areas.
16:59:57 <Wilco> ... So pointing to one copyright holder is an internationalisation issue.
17:00:13 <Wilco> Peter: It is potentially multiple publishers, depending on the domain.
17:01:17 <Wilco> zakim, end meeting
17:01:17 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jeanne, Wilco, PeterKorn, JF, sajkaj, ToddLibby
17:01:19 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:01:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/09-silver-conf-minutes.html Zakim
17:01:22 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Wilco; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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