15:05:47 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #matf
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15:05:51 <trackbot> Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:05:51 <trackbot> Date: 09 September 2021
15:05:58 <Detlev> present+
15:06:02 <JakeAbma> JakeAbma has joined #matf
15:06:08 <JakeAbma> present+
15:06:10 <Sukriti_> present+
15:15:54 <Sukriti_> scribe:Sukriti
15:17:03 <Sukriti_> Jake: in general, in the last few calls it's clear that a structure and relationship is not clear. Should we do experiments? Mapping between outcomes, guidelines, user needs
15:17:37 <Sukriti_> ...in various groups. We need to have that conformance model and structure in place
15:18:00 <Sukriti_> ...decisions made to start a group on structure of guidelines, another for conformance, another for processes
15:18:43 <Sukriti_> ...have shared some work from the attempt to produce master list of functional needs
15:19:24 <Sukriti_> correction, the master user needs list
15:19:28 <JakeAbma> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/2021-03_user-needs/?login
15:19:43 <JakeAbma> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1POhgI_xHZtSoNbHFp3r5HYIkl6ePaP8DC5d90SZ1tF4/edit#gid=752043294
15:20:58 <JakeAbma> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eJkgXqbh7dx3uD6XAy8XAANmwfbbVZ5GKb_gbsUdkVs/edit#
15:22:39 <Sukriti_> Detlev: Have questions about the granularity of overall structure within WCAG 3. Last comments on the mapping document were 2 years ago
15:23:57 <Sukriti_> Kim: need to figure out the granularity-related questions
15:25:19 <Sukriti_> Detlev: what are the potential benefits of reorganizing the material we've had for years. An exercise around core functional needs and outcomes eg. activation and focusing
15:25:44 <Sukriti_> ...crucial things which is difficult to tackle because of the complexity depending on the mode
15:26:00 <Sukriti_> ...regarding this cluster of concerns, what are the outcomes/
15:26:22 <Sukriti_> ...is the outcome the element can be activated - with screen reader, with tab, with speech
15:26:33 <Sukriti_> ...higher level outcome that breaks down the mode, technique
15:27:23 <Sukriti_> ...lacking basic understanding of the overall scheme before doing a 1:1 transfer from 2.1
15:28:56 <Sukriti_> Kim: Looking for emails re: granularity
15:29:22 <Sukriti_> ...and open to doing work in a different way
15:29:45 <Sukriti_> Detlev: other group has aspects that can be tested in atomic ways
15:30:02 <Sukriti_> ...when the more complex and important ones that can't be tested as well yet aren't
15:30:22 <Sukriti_> Jake: this sounds like a change from the second conformance testing group
15:30:43 <Sukriti_> ...they are working on the more technical parts of ACT
15:32:14 <Sukriti_> Jake: I have been working on other aspects, which might help address some of these concerns. Will be presented in the larger group
15:34:27 <Detlev> scribe:Detlev
15:35:33 <Detlev> KIm: We need the resources
15:35:53 <Detlev> ...can you out in a pointer to the presentation, Jake?
15:37:11 <Detlev> Spreadsheet with user needs was useful for people
15:37:32 <Detlev> Kim: You are in another level
15:37:48 <Detlev> ...we should also look what's new in the OSs
15:39:59 <Detlev> Jake: presentation is not online right now
15:40:09 <Detlev> Kim: can you email?
15:40:13 <Detlev> Jake: yes
15:41:35 <kim_patch> Jake is going to give us a brief version of his thoughts on user needs
15:42:33 <kim_patch> Jake: challenge that we are trying to solve is to put people up front in both the fast group and silver. Create guidelines or methods or proof points – give them a name from within the human beings – the people
15:42:55 <kim_patch> functional needs, I call them user functions. Those 54 also created in functional needs group
15:43:23 <kim_patch> Detlev: Can you hone in on the outcome
15:43:49 <kim_patch> Jake: 14 main categories and 54 subcategories
15:44:12 <kim_patch> Jake: on the other side we been working on what is a user need – performance, error prevention, all have different ways of defining a user need
15:44:50 <kim_patch> Jake: we have been focusing on what is the master user list. Those two together, the Function list and the user list create the requirements
15:45:24 <kim_patch> Jake: I'm blind or I have a motor requirement And I want to operate – what are my needs
15:45:38 <kim_patch> Jake: are we on track for a master user needs list?
15:46:04 <kim_patch> Detlev: I don't see this is the main problem whether we have more or less or split the user needs differently – I don't see how the outcomes are related
15:46:53 <kim_patch> Jake: I've been trying to search for a very simple formula everyone can understand
15:47:14 <kim_patch> Jake: Added personalization
15:48:34 <kim_patch> And discoverability, Distractions
15:48:46 <kim_patch> What are the requirements – that is the user outcome
15:49:07 <kim_patch> Jake: I just placed the user functions at the top of the spreadsheet and the user needs master list in the first column of the spreadsheet
15:49:16 <kim_patch> Jake: in every cell where they intersect I add the requirements for that intersection
15:49:52 <kim_patch> Jake: so if you are blind and using a screen reader you need text-to-speech or maybe braille, must be depth independent – just the basic stuff what is the requirement for that intersection for user to perceive content
15:50:29 <kim_patch> Jake: this is just one very simple formula is a function, user need, all the requirements – I started working them out in the spreadsheet
15:51:13 <kim_patch> Jake: this formula of having a functional need having a user need and Where they intersect is very clear
15:51:50 <kim_patch> Jake: I tried to put error prevention in this document. Only the bold ones are pretty mature. Error prevention is all about instructions. Synonym to prevent errors. I've been going through the error prevention work and I came back with six out comes
15:53:23 <kim_patch> Jake: the guidelines are basically just an outcome but error prevention with synonyms, that's the endgame of my story – we were looking for a framework structure to place those functional needs on and to come up with outcomes. The master user need list – they are like guidelines. Users can orient themselves in immersive environments, can operate navigation, can perceive changes the content, can perceive content. Those are like guidelines [CUT]
15:54:25 <kim_patch> Jake: our structure is we can use the renewed core principles – perceivable operable personalization understanding with user needs
15:55:08 <kim_patch> Jake: so we don't talk about methods, not descriptions, not how to's, just this list.
15:56:04 <kim_patch> Jake: I worked on can users perceive content today
15:57:29 <kim_patch> Detlev: I'm still struggling where Touch input, speech input comes into this
15:57:42 <kim_patch> Jake: we are at the layer were we don't need to talk about methods –
16:01:51 <kim_patch> ACTION: Jake to write an email explaining briefly a proposed useful task for MATF that has to do with line 15
16:01:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-98 - Write an email explaining briefly a proposed useful task for matf that has to do with line 15 [on Jake Abma - due 2021-09-16].
16:18:35 <kim_patch> zakim, list participants
16:18:35 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Detlev, JakeAbma, Sukriti_
16:18:47 <kim_patch> present+
16:19:01 <kim_patch> rrsagent, make minutes
16:19:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/09-matf-minutes.html kim_patch
16:19:40 <kim_patch> chair: Kimberly_Patch
16:27:59 <kim_patch> zakim, list participants
16:27:59 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Detlev, JakeAbma, Sukriti_, kim_patch
16:42:43 <kim_patch> rrsagent, make minutes
16:42:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/09-matf-minutes.html kim_patch
16:43:41 <kim_patch> Scribe:kim
16:43:58 <kim_patch> rrsagent, make minutes
16:43:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/09-matf-minutes.html kim_patch
18:31:06 <Zakim> Zakim has left #matf
18:46:44 <kim_patch> rrsagent, bye
18:46:44 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2021/09/09-matf-actions.rdf :
18:46:44 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Jake to write an email explaining briefly a proposed useful task for MATF that has to do with line 15 [1]
18:46:44 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2021/09/09-matf-irc#T16-01-51