13:51:21 RRSAgent has joined #i18n 13:51:21 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/09/09-i18n-irc 13:51:25 Zakim has joined #i18n 13:51:33 trackbot, prepare teleconference 13:51:36 RRSAgent, make logs public 13:51:39 Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference 13:51:39 Date: 09 September 2021 13:51:48 agendabot, find agenda 13:51:48 addison, OK. This may take a minute... 13:51:49 agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2021Sep/0006.html 13:51:49 clear agenda 13:51:49 agenda+ Agenda Review 13:51:49 agenda+ Action Items 13:51:51 agenda+ Info Share 13:51:53 agenda+ RADAR Review 13:51:55 agenda+ TPAC planning 13:51:57 agenda+ UAX50 change request 13:52:00 agenda+ webAuthn proposal 13:52:02 agenda+ "Awaiting Comment Resolution" reviews 13:52:05 agenda+ AOB? 13:52:12 agenda request to close payment-request issues 13:52:25 agenda+ request to close payment-request issues 13:52:50 Chair: Addison Phillips 13:52:54 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/09-i18n-minutes.html addison 13:54:43 xfq has joined #i18n 13:56:33 regrets+ JcK 13:58:51 fsasaki has joined #i18n 13:59:19 present+ Addison, Atsushi, Fuqiao, Fatima 13:59:45 present+ Felix 14:00:18 scribe: fsasaki 14:03:51 topic: new member 14:04:03 Fatima is introducing herself to the grop 14:04:13 s/grop/group/ 14:04:33 fatima: hope to work e.g. on translating material 14:04:47 richard: you do not have the technical background we have ... 14:04:54 agenda? 14:04:58 ... but there are many areas in which you can make a great difference 14:05:02 fatima: happy to help 14:05:05 zakim, take up agendum 1 14:05:05 agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:05:25 zakim, take up agendum 2 14:05:26 agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:05:32 https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open 14:05:58 action-1034? 14:05:58 action-1034 -- Addison Phillips to Triage awaiting comment resolution items -- due 2021-06-24 -- OPEN 14:05:58 https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1034 14:06:11 addison: will work on this during this call and others, keep this open 14:06:13 action-1039? 14:06:13 action-1039 -- Addison Phillips to Propose pr for https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/4814 -- due 2021-07-01 -- OPEN 14:06:13 https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1039 14:06:21 addison: I made the changes after our discussion 14:06:33 .. Richard made further comments, these are now merged in 14:06:42 close action-1039 14:06:42 Closed action-1039. 14:06:46 action-1048? 14:06:46 action-1048 -- Addison Phillips to Create PR on webauthn with new metadata proposal -- due 2021-07-21 -- OPEN 14:06:46 https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1048 14:06:55 addison: topic for our call 14:07:06 ... keep the action open 14:07:11 action-1051? 14:07:11 action-1051 -- Addison Phillips to File issues about domexception against webidl to add metadata and to provide for localizability -- due 2021-07-22 -- OPEN 14:07:11 https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1051 14:07:17 addison: pending 14:07:23 action-1061? 14:07:24 action-1061 -- Richard Ishida to Remove encoding tests and put a link to wpt tests -- due 2021-08-26 -- OPEN 14:07:24 https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1061 14:07:30 richard: done 14:07:33 close action-1061 14:07:33 Closed action-1061. 14:08:20 action-1062? 14:08:20 action-1062 -- Richard Ishida to Review open css-text-decor issues for close or escalation -- due 2021-08-26 -- OPEN 14:08:20 https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1062 14:08:30 richard: ongoing 14:08:34 action-1063? 14:08:34 action-1063 -- Addison Phillips to Respond to vocab-dcat issues pinging for updates -- due 2021-08-26 -- OPEN 14:08:34 https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1063 14:08:39 ongoing 14:10:51 David has joined #I18n 14:11:06 action-1064? 14:11:06 action-1064 -- Felix Sasaki to Propose health warning text on vocab-dcat and language -- due 2021-08-26 -- OPEN 14:11:06 https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1064 14:11:17 waiting for discussion on language tag reg. discussion 14:11:26 action-1067? 14:11:26 action-1067 -- Addison Phillips to Follow up on previous action related to language tag registry online -- due 2021-09-02 -- OPEN 14:11:26 https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1067 14:11:29 ongoing 14:11:38 action-1066? 14:11:38 action-1066 -- Richard Ishida to Move pronunciation-gap-analysis issues to new document -- due 2021-08-26 -- OPEN 14:11:38 https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1066 14:11:41 ongoing 14:11:44 action-1070? 14:11:44 action-1070 -- Addison Phillips to Reply to css about scrollbars -- due 2021-09-09 -- OPEN 14:11:44 https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1070 14:11:47 pending 14:11:50 action-1071? 14:11:50 action-1071 -- Richard Ishida to Send uax50 change request document for review by wg -- due 2021-09-09 -- OPEN 14:11:51 https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1071 14:11:55 done 14:12:02 close action-1071 14:12:02 Closed action-1071. 14:12:04 action-1072? 14:12:04 action-1072 -- Fuqiao Xue to Send feedback from clreq to jlreq on uax50 proposed changes -- due 2021-09-09 -- OPEN 14:12:04 https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1072 14:12:09 done 14:12:14 close action-1072 14:12:14 Closed action-1072. 14:12:18 action-1073? 14:12:18 action-1073 -- Atsushi Shimono to Coordinate citpc and w3c publication of uax50 change request -- due 2021-09-09 -- OPEN 14:12:18 https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1073 14:12:26 ongoing 14:12:34 action-1074? 14:12:34 action-1074 -- Addison Phillips to Respond to personalization-semantics that we can meet the 13th at 1400z -- due 2021-09-09 -- OPEN 14:12:34 https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1074 14:12:42 done 14:12:47 close action-1074 14:12:47 Closed action-1074. 14:12:54 action-1075? 14:12:54 action-1075 -- Addison Phillips to Respond to css confirm 27 oct at 1600z for tpac crossover meeting -- due 2021-09-09 -- OPEN 14:12:54 https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1075 14:12:56 done 14:12:59 close action-1075 14:12:59 Closed action-1075. 14:13:04 action-1076? 14:13:04 action-1076 -- Fuqiao Xue to Review css open issues for important items to resolve in tpac -- due 2021-09-09 -- OPEN 14:13:04 https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1076 14:13:15 done 14:13:18 close action-1076 14:13:18 Closed action-1076. 14:13:36 zakim, take up agendum 3 14:13:36 agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:13:54 richard: next week is geek week 14:14:20 ... I will probably be at our meeting, but will not have done much prep 14:14:37 zakim, take up agendum 4 14:14:38 agendum 4 -- RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:14:46 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1 14:15:16 addison: two new requests 14:15:32 ... richard looked at CSS display 3, did not find anything 14:15:47 addison: ok to move the spec to done? 14:16:00 richard: fine if others are OK with that 14:16:12 ... it is in CR at the moment 14:16:23 ... there have been some additions, I did not see any issues 14:16:33 addison: so move this to completed? 14:16:36 Fine by me 14:16:49 richard: ok 14:16:52 addison: ok 14:17:17 addison: moving to "secure payment confirmation" 14:18:36 action: addison: ping ian about joint meeting during tpac in re: secure payment confirmation 14:18:37 Created ACTION-1077 - Ping ian about joint meeting during tpac in re: secure payment confirmation [on Addison Phillips - due 2021-09-16]. 14:19:01 richard: they have not done their own self-review 14:19:14 addison: will mention that 14:19:25 agenda? 14:20:14 zakim, take up agendum 6 14:20:14 agendum 6 -- UAX50 change request -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:20:37 richard: have people read the request, do you have any requests? 14:21:06 addison: xfq wrote a mail about chinese ... I did not see controversial things 14:21:19 richard: can we vote to move forward as a group? 14:21:38 addison: so that the doc has the group endorsement 14:21:40 +1 14:21:43 +1 14:21:44 +1 14:21:45 +1 14:21:48 +1 14:21:51 +0 14:22:29 approved 14:22:47 RESOLVED: working group approved publication of UAX50 request 14:23:12 atsushi: will bring proposal from current wiki to docs 14:23:32 ... will prepare other things and bring them back to the WG 14:23:35 present+ 14:23:47 ... without touching the main content 14:24:18 zakim, take up agendum 10 14:24:18 agendum 10 -- request to close payment-request issues -- taken up [from addison] 14:24:30 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2021Sep/0011.html 14:24:45 https://www.w3.org/PM/horizontal/review.html?shortname=payment-request 14:25:45 richard: I did not look into this in detail, also did not do the review 14:26:10 ... a bunch of the comments is like: they removed the features from the spec 14:26:17 .. so we can close these issues 14:26:30 ... in other cases they say: we do this not in this but in the next version 14:26:44 ... that is worrying since you do not know if there will be a next version 14:27:24 ... we should put a paragraph in the spec saying: these are issues we have discussed with the i18n wg, and will consider them in the next version 14:27:36 ... for things which are not in the spec 14:27:54 ... we want to make implementers aware that there may be additonal changes 14:29:32 action: addison: review payment-request issues 14:29:32 addison: will take an action to review this 14:29:32 Created ACTION-1078 - Review payment-request issues [on Addison Phillips - due 2021-09-16]. 14:29:51 addison: is it OK to close issues we were satisfied by in the past? 14:30:11 ... as you say, Richard, we can insert health warnings if they do not intend to address things 14:30:12 +1 14:30:43 addison: I will close the related issue, as part of my action item 14:31:29 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2021Sep/0012.html 14:31:47 https://aphillips.github.io/webauthn/#sctn-strings-langdir 14:31:58 https://github.com/aphillips/webauthn/commit/34cc220f46de904f092a64130aef948fcedddc0e 14:32:06 addison: in a webauth spec, the web auth people invented an approach to indicate language and directionality 14:32:19 ... also sent a note to Martin about this, did not yet see a response from him 14:32:30 ... above links show my proposed changes to the spec 14:33:02 ... I did have a conversation with the group a few weeks ago, reported on that 14:33:16 ... they prefer to append information at the end 14:33:40 ... I ignored the "terminating character (sequence)" piece 14:33:51 david: the terminating character gives them a signal 14:34:10 addison: correct, they wanted that to indicate that the string has been truncated 14:34:25 ... using non ascii characters increases the byte count 14:34:42 ... the encoding I proposed is inspired by JSON-LD, but not the same 14:34:59 ... risk of using characters that are more common: more likelyhood to be confused with real strings 14:36:27 richard: we may set a precedent here 14:36:39 ... we are designing a way to do what people should not do 14:36:47 ... and are coming up with a new way to do that 14:37:05 ... also not sure if it is our job to solve the problem 14:37:27 ... we should give them advice, e.g. like "use the ascii character" or "you may need a final character" and "look at json-ld" 14:37:44 ... but rather than writing their text, we should say: go and research this how to do it 14:38:01 addison: we did that. I tend to agree with Richard 14:38:11 ... maybe I should insert a health warning in their text 14:38:20 ... it does not say why the string serialization exists 14:39:07 ... if we had a big red box saying: "this was invented for compatibility with a wide array of low capability devices, do not copy this in your spec" 14:39:27 richard: we are inventing a tech solution, without research and review 14:40:14 discussion on writing text vs. telling how to write the text 14:40:25 richard: they need to dicuss how to do this 14:40:42 addison: I could say: these are the decisions you need to make 14:40:58 ... how to encode language tags, direction etc. ... 14:41:10 richard: that would be better 14:41:36 addison: I would have this PR to edit it, with a box: you need to decide how to handle language and direction metadata 14:41:43 richard: and put the advice in the issue 14:41:46 addison: will do 14:42:18 ... what about the details I put? 14:42:32 ... about language tags I said: BCP47, folded to lower case 14:43:17 "If language metadata is present it is encoded as a sequence of ASCII code points representing a language tag mapped to lowercase. " 14:43:48 richard: this is like writing the spec 14:44:08 addison: nobody will disagree with using ASCII code points 14:44:50 richard: in charmod, we made a distinction between case folding and case mapping 14:44:59 addison: refrained from linking to charmod 14:45:14 richard: just worried about "mapped" to lower case 14:45:21 addison: understand 14:46:10 addison: about directionality, they had rlm and lrm 14:46:33 ... with my proposal the ascii sequences can be truncated, but still will be unambigous 14:46:55 ... most of the strings will never be truncated 14:47:08 ... and the string will remain unambigous even if truncated 14:47:21 atsushi_ has joined #i18n 14:47:56 richard: you do not want to see ltr and rtl on screen 14:48:13 ... if you had underscore followed by lrm or rlm, it should be removed before display 14:48:25 addison: naive displays could not handle htis 14:48:31 s/htis/this/ 14:51:16 addison: would we recommend a different mechanism than ascii strings for direction? 14:51:36 no suggestions 14:51:50 s/suggestions/suggestions for other mechanisms/ 14:52:02 richard: if you display these things they are bidirectional 14:52:06 addison: agree 14:52:34 david: on a naive device, that may create issues 14:52:43 addison: the language tag would display OK 14:53:01 ... but things could be displayed on the wrong side 14:53:25 richard explains further on the directional run in the example 14:53:33 حبیبالرحمان^^^ar-sa_rtl 14:54:11 richard: in the browser this is a left-to-right directional context 14:56:43 addison showing a demo of bidi issues 14:56:56 david: had similar issues decades ago in payment systems, seem to come back 14:57:16 addison: does that mean anything for what we would suggest? 14:57:21 s/payment/pager/ 14:57:22 richard: do not think so 14:57:44 addison: I will remove our recommendation on how to decorate the string 14:58:00 ... and keep the language related recommendation? 14:58:15 richard: I would remove all concrete suggestions 14:58:25 ... the two paragraphs plus the bullet list 14:58:37 ... in the issue you can have an example of how to do things 14:58:47 addison: that is what I intend to do 14:58:56 ... if we decide not to do the pull request 14:59:11 ... I would say in the issue: here is where you need to make decisions 14:59:21 ... meta question is: do we need to make recommendations? 14:59:37 ... saying: here is the list of choices, and here is our recommendation 14:59:47 richard: this will take a long time to come up with 15:00:01 ... these guys will better know what fits into the industry 15:00:14 addison: they are guessing, and they want us to tell them how to do this 15:02:01 ... should I prepare a proposed comment until next week? 15:02:04 all agree 15:02:33 addison: we should also put these things into string meta, although that won't be in time for this group 15:02:46 ... we could write down the considerations in string meta 15:02:57 ... my concern is: see e.g. json-ld 15:03:02 ... I know json-ld exists 15:03:14 ... having more ways to do this is not the right things 15:03:53 david: could it happen that they put other metadata into the string? 15:04:00 addison: we do not want this 15:04:15 https://w3c.github.io/string-meta/ 15:04:16 richard: string-meta is the place to start to write about this 15:04:39 (thank you) 15:04:53 ... describe situation carefully in which you do not follow the advice we give in string meta 15:05:09 ... we need to say: you need to have very good reasons for doing this 15:05:17 ... and we need to describe those reasons 15:05:53 action: addison to prepare comment for web auth until next week 15:05:53 Created ACTION-1079 - Prepare comment for web auth until next week [on Addison Phillips - due 2021-09-16]. 15:06:31 addison: AOB for this week? 15:06:49 nothing, adjourned 15:11:01 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/09-i18n-minutes.html addison 15:11:21 zakim, bye 15:11:21 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Addison, Atsushi, Fuqiao, Fatima, Felix, David 15:11:21 Zakim has left #i18n