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12:40:06 <dom> Meeting: Web & Networks 18th meeting: Client-Edge-Cloud coordination Use Cases and Requirements
12:40:12 <dom> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-networks-ig/2021Aug/0000.html
12:40:24 <dom> Chair: Sudeep, Song, DanD
12:41:43 <dom> -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-networks-ig/2021Sep/att-0002/Client-Edge-Cloud_coordination___Use_Cases_and_Requirements__.pdf Slides
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13:04:47 <dom> Present+ Dom, Sudeep, AliBegen, ChrisNeedham, DapengMax, JonDevlin, LarryZaho, SOngXu, YajunChen
13:05:24 <dom> Sudeep: welcome - long time since our last meeting in June
13:05:31 <dom> Present+ EricSiow
13:05:43 <dom> ... this is our 18th meeting of Web & Networks
13:06:28 <dom> ... two topics on the agenda today - a few updates from the chairs, followed by a talk on Edge Computing focused on client-edge-cloud coordination use cases & requirements by our guest Max from Alibaba
13:06:41 <dom> Topic: IG updates
13:06:53 <dom> Sudeep: TPAC 2021 is coming
13:07:10 <dom> ... opportunity for breakout sessions the week of October 18, with a deadline for proposals on October 8
13:07:22 <dom> -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2021/SessionIdeas TPAC 2021 breakout sessions proposals
13:09:12 <dom> Sudeep: second week (October 25-29) is for group meetings - the Web & Networks IG is planning to meet there to give updates on its workstreams: edge computing, networking tools
13:09:31 <dom> ... and network info/prediction
13:09:51 <dom> ... date soon to be determined
13:10:20 <dom> ... the IG is also invited to the Multicast CG meeting during TPAC - that group started after a discussion with MEIG & our IG last spring
13:11:07 <dom> ... date set to Oct 27 at 3pm UTC
13:11:47 <dom> ... There is also a call for demos as part of TPAC that was forwarded to the list
13:11:57 <dom> ... Jake Holland is preparing one on Multicast
13:12:14 <dom> ... all the IG participants are invited to think about topics that might be worth a demo
13:12:34 <dom> ... demo descriptions are expected next week, and demo recordings by end of the month
13:13:00 <dom> Song: Larry (my colleague from China Mobile) is planning on developing a proposal
13:14:26 <dom> Sudeep: in terms of new work: we have a new workstream on network emulation tools
13:14:48 <dom> Song: an invitation to a call for that workstream has been sent to the group with an agenda
13:15:12 <dom> ... including standardization needs around a trace format
13:16:50 <dom> Sudeep: based on that meeting, it would be great to see if that might justify a meeting for TPAC, e.g. as breakout session or as part of our TPAC IG meeting
13:17:20 <dom> Sudeep: another new piece wor is the one I mentioned earlier: the Multicast CG
13:17:40 <dom> ... active related discussions in IETF
13:17:52 <dom> ... from a browser perspectives, questions around privacy & security
13:18:04 <dom> ... but lot's of possible value e.g. in games, media, etc
13:18:24 <dom> -> https://www.w3.org/community/multicast/ Multicast CG
13:18:57 <dom> Topic: Client-Edge-Cloud coordination Use Cases and Requirements
13:19:09 <dom> Sudeep: part of our Edge COmputing workstream
13:19:26 <dom> ... by our guest Max (Dapeng) Liu, part of the Alibaba standardization team
13:19:51 <dom> -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-networks-ig/2021Sep/att-0002/Client-Edge-Cloud_coordination___Use_Cases_and_Requirements__.pdf Slides
13:20:49 <dom> Max: there have been previous discussions in the IG around Edge Computing
13:21:03 <dom> ... from our Alibaba Cloud experiences, we have requirements and proposals we would like to share
13:21:08 <dom> ... to help move forward the work in the group
13:25:27 <dom> ... First use case is based on Tmall Genie
13:25:46 <dom> ... we use it to run a smart speaker app in the cloud, reducing the cost of smart speaker devices
13:25:54 <dom> ... because most of the computing can move to the edge/cloud
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13:26:18 <dom> ... which means the smart speaker can use very cheap hardware, while improving the UX
13:26:44 <dom> ... the Edge Cloud being close to the smart speaker device ensures low latency
13:27:05 <dom> ... This architecture is specific - not standardized for interop across cloud providers
13:27:24 <dom> ... this is a general direction we're seeing emerge from the industry
13:27:35 <dom> ... Second use case is about AR/VR scenarios
13:27:57 <dom> ... the bottom picture shows the user perspective of an online shopping application
13:28:11 <dom> ... it allows the user to see information related to various products (prices and more)
13:28:43 <dom> ... this requires a lot of computing power - there are good opportunities to commercialize this kind of solutions with the arrival of 5G
13:28:54 <dom> ... by transferring data and content from the edge to the AR/VR headsets
13:29:12 <dom> ... 3rd use case is linked to Machine Learning
13:29:37 <dom> ... this architecture is based on an Alibaba open source project, with a client-side model provided to developers
13:30:09 <dom> ... the use case would be to have some of the models offloaded from the end-user device to the edge
13:30:21 <dom> ... 4th use case is related to high availability applications
13:30:35 <dom> ... one example is for live broadcasting
13:31:27 <dom> ... if you're live broadcasting from a situation where the network is not very stable, but with several network interfaces (e.g. LAN, cellular, multiple cellular interfaces)
13:32:09 <dom> ... you could run the computing-intensive tasks in several edge nodes, so that they can stay available if one network interface falls
13:32:22 <dom> ... Based on these said use cases, I suggest 2 requirements
13:32:35 <dom> ... R1: Client should be able to offload computing intensive work to the edge cloud
13:32:50 <dom> ... R2: edge back to client
13:33:07 <dom> ... Part 3 proposes a high level architecture proposal
13:33:18 <dom> ... with 3 nodes: the client, the edge cloud and central cloud
13:33:49 <dom> ... the architecture allows offloading from client to edge, edge to cloud, and vice-versa
13:34:09 <dom> ... A specific proposal to discuss is whether WebAssembly can provide a unified runtime for client and edge
13:34:26 <dom> ... this would require some extension to the WASM run time to support the hand-over
13:34:49 <dom> Present+ Shan_Huaqi
13:35:17 <dom> ... To implement this, we would need standardization of the API and the communication mechanisms between the runtimes to enable the hand-over
13:35:49 <dom> ... This presentation is a high level proposal - my suggestion is that the IG should develop use cases & requirements as a formal output of the IG
13:35:59 <dom> ... which can then help incubate a specific charter for the standardization work
13:36:03 <dom> q+
13:36:27 <cpn> q+
13:36:53 <cpn> scribe+ cpn
13:37:14 <cpn> Dom: I support your suggestion to anchor the work with use cases and requirements. The presentation is a good seed for such a document
13:37:22 <cpn> ... I hope you can help develop that document
13:38:01 <cpn> ... Any insight from your experience around edge computing on discovery: is an edge node available, what capabilities, do you have the access rights to it?
13:38:33 <cpn> ... My sense is that today most of the edge infrastructure is oriented to supporting cloud to edge rather than client to edge. Is the other direction also being pursued in industry?
13:39:07 <dom> max: I have a proposal to seed the use cases doc
13:39:23 <dom> ... re discovery from the client of the edge infrastructure
13:39:42 <dom> ... our proposal would be to use an API with a parameter the developer could use to point to a specific provider
13:39:55 <dom> ... it could be a domain name or some other identity mechanism
13:40:07 <dom> ... which would be used to orient where the offloading would happen
13:40:14 <dom> ... there are other ways that could be explored
13:41:00 <dom> Chris: thanks for the presentation - this is an area the BBC is interested in
13:41:40 <dom> ... a use case have is around consumer media devices where we want to render visual scenes that may require more compute capabalities than are available on the device
13:41:51 <dom> ... e.g. like a game rendering done on the edge
13:42:11 <dom> ... Are you thinking that the client device is also running a Web browser? i.e. is this based on a Web app?
13:42:32 <dom> ... if so, do we need to think of the transfer of input/sensor information from the client back to the edge as input to the computation?
13:42:44 <dom> Max: thanks - important use case worth including the use cases doc
13:43:16 <dom> ... to your question - Web application is one use case; for native apps, they can also leverage Web technologies to enable this kind of scenarios
13:43:47 <dom> ... we need a standardize mechanism to enable communication between the client and the edge
13:44:09 <dom> ... the Web Assembly runtimes might be developed by different vendors who would need to communicate one with another
13:44:14 <dom> ... including security mechanisms
13:45:02 <dom> Song: Chris, when you talk about media devices - are you talking about set top boxes, smart tv? or professional video recorders?
13:45:05 <dom> Chris: the former
13:46:16 <dom> q+ to mention the ByteCode Alliance might be useful to reach out in this context https://bytecodealliance.org/
13:46:34 <dom> Chris: there was some work a number of years ago in the Media & Entertainment IG on Cloud Browser technologies
13:46:52 <dom> -> https://www.w3.org/TR/cloud-browser-arch/ Cloud Browser Architecture
13:48:09 <dom> Song: I understand better the context of the use case and the need for standardization in that space
13:48:51 <dom> Song: we've had similar discussions around offloading computing
13:49:16 <dom> ... using WebAssembly as a unified runtime in this context is a useful addition
13:50:00 <cpn> Dom: For this specific idea of WebAssembly, there's the Bytecode Alliance which is looking at the role WASM can take as a computing platform
13:50:12 <cpn> ... Could be useful to reach out to them
13:50:51 <dom> Max: +1 to coordination on Bytecode Alliance and the W3C Web Assembly WG
13:51:16 <dom> ... I've discussed with @@@ - they're supportive with the direction
13:51:30 <dom> ... this could be extended to offloading JS to the edge as well
13:51:43 <dom> ... if there is agreement in the direction, we can study in more depth both approaches
13:52:26 <dom> q- dom
13:52:28 <dom> q- cpn
13:52:49 <dom> Sudeep: thanks Max for the presentation - your help in driving use cases would be very much appreciated
13:54:02 <dom> ... one general comment - I think there is some work in the Web of Things WG on Thing Description, and they've indicated interest in describing Edge Nodes as Things which may help with describing capabilities as part of the discovery process
13:54:16 <dom> ... we can help make the connection if that's useful to leverage
13:54:57 <dom> ... Another comment: we've also been looking at how to measure network parameters - if you want to offload, how do you get data about the network conditions to evaluate whether or not to offload?
13:55:22 <dom> q+ Louay
13:55:26 <dom> Present+ Louay
13:55:57 <dom> Sudeep: from the network perspective, at what level would be you looking at? protocol / API / runtime
13:56:20 <dom> Max: this presentation doesn't try to go deep on the solution space, but some initial idea we have in this space:
13:56:31 <dom> ... the most important standardization piece is the communication between runtime engines
13:56:43 <dom> ... without standardization, no communication can happen, so this is essential
13:57:39 <dom> ... for the other parts (e.g. determining network conditions to decide whether or not to offload), this could be left to runtimes to assess - the specific policies could be left implementation dependent
13:58:00 <dom> ... app developers could have their policies that could be matched with edge provider policies
13:58:10 <dom> ... the standardization would be around defining the policies
13:58:20 <dom> ... but this is an early idea, this needs a lot more discussion
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13:59:27 <dom> Louay: thanks for the presentation - would this be only for web apps?
13:59:41 <dom> ... we have similar scenarios implemented using Unity Edge Tunneling (?)
13:59:55 <dom> ... there are lots of open questions on standardization interfaces for communications between client & edge
14:00:12 <dom> ... webRTC might be a protocol to consider to stream media from/to the edge
14:00:48 <dom> Max: for the communication mechanism, we haven't done much research on that, but there are plenty of candidates with existing standards from IETF, incl WebRTC
14:01:05 <dom> ... once we get into the solution design phase, we can compare the various options
14:01:48 <dom> ... in terms of the type of applications - Web apps is one category of apps that can be supported by this proposal, but native apps could also use this kind of approach because they can leverage Web technologies via embedding
14:02:35 <dom> Sudeep: we'll create a github issue on the topic; Max, would you be willing draft the use cases you've captured to serve as a baseline for discussion on standardization?
14:02:43 <dom> Max: happy to help
14:03:00 <dom> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:03:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/08-web-networks-minutes.html dom
14:03:20 <dom> RRSAgent, make log public
14:04:43 <dom> i/<dom> Sudeep: welcome/Scribe+ dom/
14:04:45 <dom> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:04:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/08-web-networks-minutes.html dom
14:06:00 <dom> i/Agenda:/Scribe+ dom/
14:06:01 <dom> RRSAgent, draft minutes
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