20:02:46 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dxwg
20:02:46 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/09/07-dxwg-irc
20:02:49 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dxwg
20:02:57 <plh> Meeting: DXWG Plenary
20:03:02 <plh> Chair: Caroline
20:03:05 <riccardoAlbertoni> present+
20:03:07 <plh> present+
20:03:09 <Ana> Present+
20:04:55 <Caroline_> Present+
20:04:59 <AndreaPerego> present+
20:05:02 <DaveBrowning> present+
20:05:18 <plh> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2021.09.07
20:05:34 <PWinstanley> present+
20:05:49 <plh> scribeNick: plh
20:06:01 <plh> Topic: Admin
20:06:11 <plh> Approve https://www.w3.org/2021/06/29-dxwg-minutes
20:06:16 <AndreaPerego> +1
20:06:24 <SimonCox> 0 - not present
20:06:29 <Caroline_> +1
20:06:30 <plh> +1
20:06:31 <DaveBrowning> 0 - not present
20:06:32 <riccardoAlbertoni> +0 (i was not present)
20:06:34 <annette_g> annette_g has joined #dxwg
20:06:39 <Ana> +1
20:07:09 <plh> Resolved: Approved June 20 minutes https://www.w3.org/2021/06/29-dxwg-minutes
20:07:22 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes
20:07:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/07-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego
20:07:35 <kcoyle> +1
20:07:48 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, make logs world
20:07:51 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes
20:07:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/07-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego
20:08:45 <AndreaPerego> regrets+ Antoine
20:08:47 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes
20:08:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/07-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego
20:09:05 <annette_g> s/91832729517?pwd=UDlJQkJjMGp0U0VKT20wTHhZaVJUdz09/redacted/
20:09:29 <plh> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dxwg-wg/2021Sep/0018.html
20:10:03 <plh> Plh: we're now part of the calendar. check your inbox or login to the website to get meeing information
20:10:08 <plh> s/meeing/meeting/
20:10:38 <plh> Topic: subgroup updates
20:10:41 <riccardoAlbertoni> +q
20:10:53 <Caroline_> ack riccardoAlbertoni
20:11:08 <plh> riccardoAlbertoni: met last week after the break
20:11:15 <plh> ... discussed different issues.
20:11:22 <plh> ... 2 need attention
20:11:23 <riccardoAlbertoni> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/1358
20:11:45 <plh> ...... #1358 raised by APA WG
20:11:56 <plh> ... asking an a11y considerations section
20:12:04 <plh> ... we have a proposed section
20:12:06 <riccardoAlbertoni> https://w3c.github.io/dxwg/dcat/#accessibility.
20:12:22 <plh> ... we asked for their feedback in May
20:12:26 <plh> ... did not hear back
20:12:38 <plh> ... can we close the issue?
20:12:45 <plh> ... they can reopen it if needed
20:12:49 <plh> q+
20:13:43 <Caroline_> ack plh
20:14:38 <riccardoAlbertoni> https://w3c.github.io/dxwg/dcat/#inverse-properties
20:14:39 <plh> plh: close the issue and I'll let the team  contact know
20:14:51 <plh> riccardo: second issue is about inverse properties
20:15:01 <plh> ... appointed Andrea to shape the section
20:15:11 <plh> ... aim to have a starting draft
20:15:51 <plh> AndreaPerego: main issue was that we don't need them since they can be derived and may hinder interop
20:16:08 <plh> ... if one provide a property and its inverse
20:16:16 <plh> ... ie breaking consistency
20:16:41 <plh> ... so we tried to propose a tentative solution to the problem
20:16:58 <plh> ... based on 2 assumptions: the dialect
20:17:27 <SimonCox> What use-cases _require_ inverse properties?
20:17:37 <plh> ... some dialect don't need inverse. but some use cases do.
20:18:04 <plh> ... initially, we'll only include the list of properties without their inverse and move the inverse in a separate section
20:18:26 <plh> ... where we give recommendations there
20:18:42 <plh> ... you must be aware of you should not use those properties alone
20:18:47 <SimonCox> In PROV-O they reserved the _names_ of the inverse properties, but did not include them in the RDF.
20:18:56 <SimonCox> q
20:19:01 <SimonCox> q+
20:19:04 <Caroline_> ack SimonCox
20:19:30 <plh> SimonCox: what use case are we trying to solve? RDF or graph model?
20:19:46 <plh> ... you can reverse direction in those
20:19:48 <riccardoAlbertoni> +q
20:20:05 <plh> AndreaPerego: some platforms are not RDF-based
20:20:37 <SimonCox> OK - so it is a consequence of the expressivity of the source or target technology
20:20:43 <plh> ... in other cases, when harvesting data across catalogs, you may want to have explicit properties
20:20:44 <riccardoAlbertoni> q-
20:21:02 <plh> ... probably, we don't have the full picture yet
20:21:24 <plh> ... idea is to provide guidance without breaking interop
20:21:49 <plh> ... we have a number of properties with their inverse from dublin core
20:22:04 <plh> ... like replacedWith, replacedBy
20:22:17 <SimonCox> Risk is that if they are available in the RDF, then people will use them anyway, regardless of the guidance in the spec (which they probably won't read)
20:22:17 <plh> ... trying to make it clear that the properties should not be used alone
20:22:33 <SimonCox> ... even if they don't need them
20:22:35 <plh> ... we're still discussing this topic
20:22:50 <plh> ... so feedback is more than welcome. looking for discussion
20:23:07 <plh> ... proposal is to fuel the discussion
20:23:41 <plh> SimonCox: explanation doesn't surprise me, I pushed not to have inverse props
20:23:59 <SimonCox> Guidance should be heavily based on examples!
20:24:01 <annette_g> q+
20:24:14 <plh> AndreaPerego: again, we welcome feedback so please comment
20:24:24 <plh> .... also welcome to join the DCAT subgroup
20:25:09 <SimonCox> * apologies for not joining meetings for many months. I try to keep up with issues on GitHub in lieu
20:25:17 <plh> ... use https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/1336 or open a new one
20:26:09 <plh> ack annette_g
20:26:10 <Caroline_> ack annette_g
20:26:19 <plh> annette_g: I support this approach. it's a good one
20:26:31 <plh> AndreaPerego: welcome suggestions for text improvements
20:26:56 <AndreaPerego> q+
20:27:00 <Caroline_> ack AndreaPerego
20:27:38 <plh> AndreaPerego: the point here is that we have to decide which inverse props we'll want to define
20:27:43 <plh> ... not all of them need to
20:27:56 <plh> ... this will require a separate discussion
20:29:02 <plh> Caroline_: any other subgroup updates?
20:30:02 <plh> karen: we met about and talked about how to approach the profile guidance
20:30:13 <plh> ... but work is happening in the dublin core area
20:30:24 <plh> ... including if a prof could be used in what we're doing
20:30:36 <plh> ... not reviewed by the group but would like to present it here
20:30:52 <plh> ... I'll meet again with Annette and see if we can come up with something
20:31:13 <DaveBrowning> RRSAgent, draft minutes
20:31:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/07-dxwg-minutes.html DaveBrowning
20:32:06 <plh> Topic: TPAC
20:32:48 <plh> Caroline_: it will be online again
20:32:57 <plh> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2021/GroupMeetings#WG.2FIG.2FBG_Group_Meetings_details
20:33:44 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes
20:33:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/07-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego
20:33:54 <plh> ... is the plenary meeting at TPAC ? or subgroup?
20:34:07 <plh> ... or can we do a short video on our work?
20:34:27 <plh> q+
20:34:40 <Caroline_> ack plh
20:35:26 <plh> https://www.w3.org/Guide/meetings/tpac.html
20:35:55 <plh> https://www.w3.org/2020/10/TPAC/group-updates.html
20:37:35 <annette_g> +1 for meeting at tpac
20:37:41 <AndreaPerego> q+
20:37:44 <kcoyle> q+
20:37:55 <Caroline_> ack AndreaPerego
20:38:39 <plh> AndreaPerego: we should meet consider an opportunity for a longer meeting but we have to decide what we'll like to discuss, such as profile guidance
20:39:17 <Caroline_> ack kcoyle
20:39:31 <plh> kcoyle: what is the general nature of those videos and how much does it take?
20:40:34 <annette_g> q+
20:41:49 <Caroline_> ack annette_g
20:41:57 <plh> plh: general audience
20:42:11 <plh> annette_g: I'd look to use it as outreach as well
20:43:02 <riccardoAlbertoni>  +q
20:43:26 <Caroline_> ack riccardoAlbertoni
20:44:11 <plh> riccardoAlbertoni: we're expected to finish in January
20:44:32 <plh> ... so how long will we keep working?
20:46:22 <plh> plh: charter runs out in January but we can always recharter
20:46:32 <Caroline_> q+
20:46:33 <plh> ... should have a draft by mid-October and iterate then
20:47:29 <plh> Caroline_: we can a general video and talk about our work and maybe gather more people to get involved
20:47:49 <plh> ... other thing is to think about the future of the group beyond January
20:48:10 <plh> ... and is group willing to meet around tpac?
20:48:27 <plh> ack Caroline_
20:48:31 <plh> q+
20:48:42 <Caroline_> ack Caroline_
20:49:55 <plh> ack plh
20:50:32 <plh> Caroline_: can we make a list of future work, issues that we'd like to solve?
20:50:50 <plh> ... and then discuss them at TPAC?
20:50:57 <kcoyle> +1
20:51:32 <AndreaPerego> Don't know yet.
20:51:38 <annette_g> +1
20:51:43 <AndreaPerego> q+
20:52:03 <plh> riccardoAlbertoni: it will be difficult to finish by January
20:52:20 <Caroline_> ack AndreaPerego
20:52:29 <PWinstanley> I am wondering if we need to think about the generalised cataloging issue and move away from 'data'
20:52:49 <plh> AndreaPerego: we should also consider going into next steps
20:53:02 <plh> ... our use cases did not involve since 2014
20:53:17 <plh> ... and still, things changed. DCAT will become a silo
20:53:21 <PWinstanley> the "D" in "DCAT" is, to a great extent historical, coming from the interest in public sector open data
20:53:22 <annette_g> s/involve/evolve/
20:53:43 <plh> ... we had some unexpected feedback from users
20:53:47 <PWinstanley> we need to address the "F" in "FAIR"
20:53:53 <plh> ... can we do a "DCAT reloaded" ?
20:54:02 <PWinstanley> q+
20:54:36 <plh> AndreaPerego: it would be nice to discuss that around TPAC, not sure who will present it
20:54:48 <plh> ... otherwise we'll become a niche tech
20:54:54 <Caroline_> ack PWinstanley
20:55:14 <plh> PWinstanley: the D in DCAT is historical, due to its origin
20:55:27 <plh> ... version 2, we got the possibility of extending any resource
20:55:44 <plh> ... we should look into being Fair
20:56:08 <plh> Caroline_: ok, proposal is to address these at the TPAC meeting
20:56:19 <plh> ... DCAT, profile guidance
20:56:51 <plh> Proposal: meet around TPAC to discuss the future of DCAT, profile guidance, and this WG
20:57:22 <kcoyle> +1 90 minutes
20:57:26 <PWinstanley> s/we should look into being Fair/we should look to provide a generalisable "Findability" solution in FAIR/
20:57:26 <plh> plh: suggest 90 minutes
20:57:36 <kcoyle> +1
20:57:36 <AndreaPerego> +1
20:57:38 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1
20:57:38 <Caroline_> +1
20:57:39 <Ana> +1
20:57:42 <annette_g> +1
20:57:45 <PWinstanley> +1
20:57:47 <DaveBrowning> +1
20:57:53 <SimonCox> +1
20:58:14 <annette_g> wiki page
20:58:17 <AndreaPerego> q+
20:58:23 <plh> Resolved: Group will meet at TPAC
20:58:31 <DaveBrowning> RRSAgent, draft minutes
20:58:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/07-dxwg-minutes.html DaveBrowning
20:58:38 <kcoyle> github is good
20:58:44 <Caroline_> ack AndreaPerego
20:59:11 <plh> AndreaPerego: if we prefer to fill a template, GH is the preferred
20:59:54 <annette_g> q+
21:00:11 <Caroline_> ack annette_g
21:00:38 <plh> plh: I'll create a repo for the next charter and gather issues
21:01:02 <plh> ACTION: plh to create a repo for the next charter and gather issues
21:01:22 <plh> Proposal: Create a group update video for TPAC
21:01:29 <annette_g> +1
21:01:31 <kcoyle> +1
21:01:31 <AndreaPerego> 0
21:01:35 <plh> 0
21:01:38 <riccardoAlbertoni> 0
21:01:41 <DaveBrowning> 0
21:01:46 <PWinstanley> 0
21:01:51 <Caroline_> +1
21:01:58 <Ana> +1
21:02:29 <SimonCox> 0
21:02:52 <plh> Caroline_: my suggestion is, if anyone is willing to record it, let me know
21:03:47 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:04:02 <SimonCox> @me I need to go
21:04:05 <Caroline_> ack AndreaPerego
21:04:05 <plh> ack AndreaPerego
21:04:34 <plh> [adjourned]
21:04:37 <plh> rrsagent, generate minutes v2
21:04:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/07-dxwg-minutes.html plh
21:04:41 <Ana> Bye
21:19:15 <AndreaPerego> AndreaPerego has joined #dxwg
21:20:13 <AndreaPerego> present+ SimonCox
21:20:19 <AndreaPerego> present+ kcoyle
21:20:31 <AndreaPerego> present+ annette_g
21:21:11 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:21:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/07-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:22:58 <AndreaPerego> s/karen/kcoyle/
21:23:00 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:23:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/07-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:24:15 <AndreaPerego> s/riccardo:/riccardoAlbertoni:/
21:24:17 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:24:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/07-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:26:32 <AndreaPerego> s/replacedWith/replaces/
21:26:51 <AndreaPerego> s/replacedBy/IsReplacedBy/
21:26:53 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:26:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/07-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:35:57 <annette_g> present+