17:00:59 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:00:59 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/09/02-aria-irc
17:01:01 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:01:02 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
17:01:02 <jamesn> present+
17:01:10 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA WG
17:01:40 <jamesn> chair: JamesNurthen
17:03:20 <jamesn> agenda+ [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/3ywacVd)
17:03:20 <jamesn> agenda+  [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3t1OaIR)
17:03:20 <jamesn> agenda+  Group chair update
17:03:20 <jamesn> agenda+  [Upcoming Deep Dive calls](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/calendar)
17:03:20 <jamesn> agenda+  [Deep Dives for future weeks](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates)
17:03:21 <jamesn> agenda+  [Remaining 1.2 Issues](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3A%22ARIA+1.2%22)
17:03:21 <jamesn> agenda+  [TPAC 2021](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1482)
17:03:37 <MarkMcCarthy> MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria
17:03:41 <MarkMcCarthy> present+
17:03:49 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
17:03:52 <spectranaut> scribe: spectranaut
17:03:58 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
17:04:04 <spectranaut> zakim, next item
17:04:04 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/3ywacVd) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:04:10 <spectranaut> present+
17:04:21 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/144
17:04:41 <spectranaut> jamesn: new issue against accname, in relation to proposed changes to inner text
17:05:30 <spectranaut> jamesn: bryan, can you put together a comment for james craig and others to look at it? is this a blocking issue?
17:05:58 <spectranaut> joanie: if there is an aria label, use it, if there is not, use inner text
17:06:36 <WilliamTennisNFCU> WilliamTennisNFCU has joined #aria
17:06:43 <WilliamTennisNFCU> present+
17:06:46 <spectranaut> garaventa: yeah originally that is what we were doing, essentially we are not checking attributes now for hidden content. the whole point is that he doesn't want to check attributes on hidden text
17:07:25 <sarah_higley> sarah_higley has joined #aria
17:07:31 <spectranaut> joanie: if a node is directly referenced by aria-labelled by, just that node is looked at, not the descendants, I think. it wouldn't be hard in webkit to grab that aria-label value instead of innertext
17:07:53 <CurtBellew> CurtBellew has joined #aria
17:08:14 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/144
17:09:34 <spectranaut> zakim, next item
17:09:34 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3t1OaIR) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:09:51 <spectranaut> zakim, close item
17:09:51 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close item', spectranaut
17:09:55 <spectranaut> zakim, next item
17:09:55 <Zakim> agendum 2 was just opened, spectranaut
17:10:03 <spectranaut> zakim, close item 2
17:10:03 <Zakim> agendum 2, [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3t1OaIR), closed
17:10:04 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:10:04 <Zakim> 3. Group chair update [from jamesn]
17:10:10 <spectranaut> zakim next item
17:10:16 <spectranaut> zakim, next item
17:10:16 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Group chair update -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:10:57 <spectranaut> jamesn: joanie will be stepping down from ARIA chair, after 5 years \o/
17:11:08 <spectranaut> jamesn: we will be looking for a new chair!
17:11:18 <cyns> Thank you, Joanie!
17:11:21 <MarkMcCarthy> cheers and hurrahs for Joanie!
17:11:31 <StefanS> big hand clap
17:11:44 <spectranaut> jamesn: Joanie has helped transform the group and has been wonderful part of ARIA
17:12:00 <spectranaut> joanie: I'll be sticking around as a working bee and help others take over all the work I've been doing
17:13:56 <CurtBellew> present +
17:14:06 <StefanS> present+
17:14:48 <spectranaut> zakim, next item
17:14:48 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- [Upcoming Deep Dive calls](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/calendar) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:15:06 <spectranaut> jamesn: I added layout grid part two for next week
17:15:16 <spectranaut> jamesn: treegrid posinset for the week following
17:15:28 <spectranaut> jamesn: wasn't there something else from this morning we wanted to add.....??
17:15:29 <joanie> q+
17:16:07 <spectranaut> joanie: on the posinset and setsize, I'm going to be away that week, and I am not essential for the convo. I'll implement a solution if you figure it out, but if I need to be there then we'd need to move out a week
17:16:20 <joanie> q-
17:16:23 <spectranaut> jamesn: anyone ok with rescheduling? seems like its ok
17:17:16 <spectranaut> zakim, next item
17:17:16 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- [Deep Dives for future weeks](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:17:38 <spectranaut> cyns: accname whitespace?
17:17:49 <spectranaut> jamesn: we need bryan for that.. how about the 30th?
17:18:44 <spectranaut>  melanie: I'll be speaking at a conference on the 30th so I won't be here
17:19:03 <spectranaut> jamesn: 16th and 30th is open, email me if you want a topic
17:19:05 <spectranaut> zakim, next item
17:19:06 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- [Remaining 1.2 Issues](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3A%22ARIA+1.2%22) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:19:20 <spectranaut> jamesn: three issues left
17:19:26 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1560
17:19:45 <spectranaut> jamesn: author must statements -- authors much manage focus
17:20:02 <spectranaut> jamesn: can we write a test on this? I think it's not possible
17:20:16 <spectranaut> jamesn: lets close it unless anyone has an idea
17:20:52 <spectranaut> jamesn: closed
17:21:02 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1576
17:21:09 <spectranaut> jamesn: test case aria error-msg, jon is not here
17:21:16 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1588
17:21:24 <spectranaut> jon created a PR for this, and I had a comment and wanted other people's views on this to resolve it
17:21:36 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1588#pullrequestreview-741968817
17:21:58 <spectranaut> jamesn: jon is testing a failure if aria-errormsg is empty. is that a failure?
17:22:59 <spectranaut> stefan: seems like there is a use case to have an empty aria-errormsg
17:23:25 <siri> siri has joined #aria
17:23:46 <spectranaut> most people seem to agree it's not a failure
17:24:07 <spectranaut> melanie: AT won't say anything if it is blank, right?
17:24:12 <spectranaut> jamesn: right
17:25:05 <spectranaut> garaventa: if you have an invalid field, it definately should have content
17:25:22 <jamesn> Sometimes states and properties are present in the DOM but have a zero-length string ("") as their value. Authors MAY specify a zero-length string ("") for any supported (but not required) state or property. User agents SHOULD treat state and property attributes with a value of "" the same as they treat an absent attribute.
17:25:44 <spectranaut> jamesn: specification  text ^
17:26:13 <spectranaut> melanie: I think we shouldn't put it in until you need it, but it's not wrong according ot the spec
17:26:23 <spectranaut> jamesn: let's get jon to fix this then
17:27:12 <cyns> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_KNKQVTakhP11wekPWhT5FJTtknwJPE7heswUfhHfUs/edit?usp=sharing
17:27:57 <spectranaut> cyns: highlighted stuff is new text
17:29:11 <spectranaut> cyns: this is basically changing from dom strings to nullable dom strings, because that is what seems to be implemented. 6.2.4 I have a question, nullable dom string is not a seperate type, but maybe it makes sense to add a def here.
17:29:38 <spectranaut> cyns: 6.3 in the first paragraph, I changed from having things defaulting to their default from the ctables to defaulting to not existing when they are not present
17:29:58 <spectranaut> cyns: all aria attributes are nullable dom strings, including boolean (this was in non normative section before)
17:30:29 <spectranaut> cyns: move some examples to 6.3.1, normative paragraphs, summarizing what the html spec says
17:30:49 <spectranaut> cyns: moved the "MUST" from the html
17:31:10 <spectranaut> cyns: which is: if the attribute is not there, and you query it, it returns null
17:31:30 <spectranaut> jamesn: I wouldn't recommend the block quote, because if that spec is updated, then we have to update the HTML spec
17:31:39 <spectranaut> cyns: can we have a scripted link?
17:31:43 <spectranaut> jamesn: that would be ok
17:31:50 <spectranaut> cyns: we missed this when writing tests before
17:32:14 <spectranaut> jamesn: i don't know if there is a way to do that from respec
17:32:27 <spectranaut> jcraig: I think we shouldn't move the spec
17:32:45 <spectranaut> jcraig: I don't think we should quote the HTML
17:33:07 <spectranaut> joanie: I think SOMETHING needs to be here so that people know what user agents should do
17:33:33 <spectranaut> jcraig: maybe make an acknowledgement of when the text was copied, and maybe put it in a note, say go check the REAL reference
17:34:01 <spectranaut> actually, jamesn said that ^
17:34:29 <spectranaut> cyns: I'll get to it next week, if you can do it sooner that'd be great
17:35:31 <spectranaut> jamesn: is it ok to put a quote from another spec in our spec, michael cooper?
17:35:40 <spectranaut> MichaelC: I have seen it before, seems fine
17:37:32 <spectranaut> MichaelC: now I think this needs to be considered more
17:37:48 <spectranaut> MichaelC: I would use their latest review draft
17:38:00 <spectranaut> cyns: that is were I got this
17:38:04 <spectranaut> cyns: how do I say that?
17:38:12 <spectranaut> MichaelC: this comes from the HTML5 spec
17:38:18 <spectranaut> cyns: this part of the spec is pretty stable
17:38:55 <spectranaut> MichaelC: it seems safest for me to do the quote in a non normative way
17:39:10 <spectranaut> MichaelC: we can have our OWN requirements that compliment the HTML5
17:39:25 <spectranaut> MichaelC: aren't all references to HTML5 "advisory"
17:39:33 <spectranaut> jamesn: not necessarially
17:39:52 <spectranaut> cyns: the references are either normative or non normative, int his case it is normative
17:40:10 <spectranaut> cyns: I can include it by reference or...
17:40:41 <spectranaut> MichaelC: it's ok to quote, and say any normative statements in the quote should be reaffirmed somehow.
17:41:20 <spectranaut> cyns: what I have right now is: (cyns quotes the document)
17:41:54 <spectranaut> 6.3.1 ARIA Enumerated Attributes in HTML5
17:41:54 <spectranaut> As noted in Mapping WAI-ARIA Value Types to Languages, attributes are included in host languages, and the syntax for representation of enumerated value types is governed by the host language.
17:41:54 <spectranaut> When the host language is HTML5, ARIA enumerated attributes MUST follow the HTML5 rules for reflecting nullable DOMString IDL attributes.
17:42:13 <spectranaut> cyns: if your aria is in HTML, this is what you should do
17:42:31 <spectranaut> jamesn: do we need to version our quote of hte html 5 spec?
17:42:46 <spectranaut> cyns: can I say "these are the rules as of <date>"
17:43:01 <spectranaut> MichaelC: lets start with date and ask a friendly person in html how to reference?
17:43:16 <spectranaut> jamesn: say "html" not "html5"
17:44:04 <spectranaut> jamesn: I'll make some edits here in this document
17:44:14 <spectranaut> jamesn: there are some examples, are they ok, joanie ?
17:44:22 <spectranaut> and jcraig ?
17:44:29 <spectranaut> jcraig: seems reasonable ot me
17:46:19 <spectranaut> joanie: the value of foo, aria-pressed="foo", I don't think implementations are checking that
17:46:41 <spectranaut> cyns: should we document reality or try to get the spec to align with the html5 spec behavior
17:46:56 <spectranaut> jamesn: if the browsers are consistent, we should document reality
17:48:12 <spectranaut> cyns: I think there isn't a invalid default
17:48:27 <spectranaut> joanie: this is invalid, aria-pressed can be true, false or undefined
17:48:50 <spectranaut> joanie: but are user agents are doing anything in terms of checking what they expose as aria attributes...?
17:48:59 <spectranaut> cyns: I think we did do that for forward compatibility
17:49:22 <spectranaut> cyns: I think in spec language, these enumerated values don't have invalid default. if you put an invalid value, it doesn't do what the defaul tis
17:49:38 <spectranaut> cyns: in the case where there is no invalid default in html5, I think that is what is uppose to happen
17:50:08 <spectranaut> joanie: core-aam is not in CR yet
17:50:40 <spectranaut> joanie: can we change the spec in this one place...
17:50:58 <spectranaut> cyns: if what we want to do is document reality, I'll find out
17:51:31 <spectranaut> joanie: the paragraph about the missing default... should it be removed...?
17:51:47 <spectranaut> joanie: I made a comment on it
17:52:09 <spectranaut> cyns: we don't have default values when we switch it to nullables
17:52:25 <spectranaut> jcraig: I wrote that sentence, based on the fact that it is ennumerated attributes
17:52:39 <spectranaut> jcraig: but I think joanie pointed out that doesn't matter any more
17:52:51 <spectranaut> jcraig: they are nullable in the dom, but they are NOT nullable in the accessibility APIs
17:53:30 <spectranaut> joanie: but does that parapgraph say that?
17:53:32 <spectranaut> jcraig: nope
17:53:56 <jamesn> agenda?
17:54:08 <spectranaut> jcraig: either that sentence could be removed or changed to make it clear that it applies to the AAM not the dom
17:54:15 <spectranaut> cyns: lets move it to the AAM
17:54:27 <spectranaut> joanie: I'm ok with that but is it an AAM thing?
17:54:39 <spectranaut> joanie: user agents aren't doing that on a platform by platform basis
17:55:15 <spectranaut> joanie: aria-busy by default is false, if it is not in the dom, then UA prentend it is false, treat it likes it's false, that should be in the aria spec, but the platform spec, its not a mapping
17:55:27 <spectranaut> joanie: it is how the user agent should interpret the infor
17:55:32 <spectranaut> joanie: 5.2.3:
17:55:42 <spectranaut> aria 5.2.3
17:56:12 <spectranaut> joanie: there is nothing to change in the aam
17:56:19 <joanie> https://w3c.github.io/aria/#supportedState
17:56:23 <spectranaut> cyns: ok we will update
17:58:03 <spectranaut> joanie: not a lot of validation in browsers
17:58:16 <spectranaut> joanie: so we should remove that part
17:59:15 <spectranaut> jcraig: since this language is similar to the html language, I'd rather have a sentence that says this is the value for the dom, and another sentence that says the accessibility API mapping should be ... it should be back to back sentences for clarity
18:00:00 <spectranaut> jcraig: ..... (I didn't catch but cyns seemed to agree)
18:00:16 <spectranaut> cyns: I think I know what to do
18:00:42 <spectranaut> jamesn: should we meet with anyone during TPCA??
18:01:10 <spectranaut> MichaelC: the breakout sessions are not yet being scheduled/suggested
18:01:35 <spectranaut> how do I make minutes??
18:02:00 <spectranaut> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:02:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/02-aria-minutes.html spectranaut