15:47:37 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #apa
15:47:37 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/08/25-apa-irc
15:47:39 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:47:39 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #apa
15:47:41 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Platform Architectures Working Group Teleconference
15:47:41 <trackbot> Date: 25 August 2021
15:47:52 <becky> agenda?
15:48:18 <becky> agenda+ Agenda Review & Announcements; W3C Calendar: https://www.w3.org/Guide/meetings/organize.html
15:48:18 <becky> agenda+ [TPAC Planning](https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2021/GroupMeetingsagenda+ Task Force Updates; agenda+ FAST Progress)
15:48:18 <becky> agenda+ New Charters Review
15:48:18 <becky> agenda+ Accessibility Review Comment Tracker
15:48:19 <becky> agenda+ New on TR
15:48:19 <becky> agenda+ CSS Update (Amy)
15:48:19 <becky> agenda+Dangling Spec Review Cleanup:
15:48:19 <becky> agenda+ Actions Checkin (Specs)
15:48:19 <becky> agenda+ Other Business
15:48:39 <becky> chair: becky
15:58:01 <FredrikFischer> FredrikFischer has joined #apa
15:58:07 <FredrikFischer> present+
15:58:40 <janina> trackbot, start meeting
15:58:43 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:58:46 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Platform Architectures Working Group Teleconference
15:58:46 <trackbot> Date: 25 August 2021
15:58:49 <janina> agenda?
15:59:29 <janina> zakim, clear agenda
15:59:29 <Zakim> agenda cleared
15:59:32 <janina> agenda+ Agenda Review & Announcements; W3C Calendar: https://www.w3.org/Guide/meetings/organize.html <https://www.w3.org/Guide/meetings/organize.html>
15:59:35 <janina> agenda+ TPAC Planning <https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2021/GroupMeetings>
15:59:37 <janina> agenda+ Task Force Updates;
15:59:40 <janina> agenda+ FAST Progress)
15:59:42 <janina> agenda+ New Charters Review <https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Horizontal+review+requested>
15:59:45 <janina> agenda+ Accessibility Review Comment Tracker <https://w3c.github.io/horizontal-issue-tracker/?repo=w3c/a11y-review>
15:59:48 <janina> agenda+ New on TR <http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html>
15:59:48 <IanPouncey> IanPouncey has joined #apa
15:59:51 <janina> agenda+ CSS Update (Amy) <https://github.com/w3c/css-a11y/issues>
15:59:53 <janina> agenda+Dangling Spec Review Cleanup: <https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Category:Spec_Review_Assigned>
15:59:56 <janina> agenda+ Actions Checkin (Specs) <https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/open>
15:59:59 <janina> agenda+ Other Business
16:00:07 <janina> Chair: Becky
16:00:56 <mike_beganyi> mike_beganyi has joined #apa
16:01:05 <mike_beganyi> present+
16:01:07 <IanPouncey> present+
16:02:01 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger has joined #apa
16:02:09 <PaulG_> present+
16:02:10 <Lionel_Wolberger> agenda?
16:02:19 <Lionel_Wolberger> present?
16:02:34 <Lionel_Wolberger> present+
16:03:44 <becky> present+
16:03:47 <janina> present+
16:03:49 <amy_c> amy_c has joined #apa
16:03:53 <amy_c> present+
16:04:10 <Lionel_Wolberger> scribe: Lionel_Wolberger
16:04:33 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
16:04:33 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review & Announcements; W3C Calendar: https://www.w3.org/Guide/meetings/organize.html <https://www.w3.org/Guide/meetings/organize.html> -- taken up [from
16:04:36 <Zakim> ... janina]
16:05:04 <becky> regrets, Gottfried Zimmerman, David Fazio
16:05:43 <Lionel_Wolberger> becky: We are trying the new calendar
16:05:52 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... you can opt out of updates if you wish
16:10:03 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger: APA Chairs encourage every task force to enter the meetings into the calendar
16:10:56 <Lionel_Wolberger> becky: This should me it easier to track meetings.
16:11:04 <Lionel_Wolberger> Zakim, take up item 2
16:11:04 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- TPAC Planning <https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2021/GroupMeetings> -- taken up [from janina]
16:11:49 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: Personalization requested a full session of their own.
16:12:07 <Jonny_James> Jonny_James has joined #apa
16:12:09 <Jonny_James> present+
16:12:14 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... RQTF has decided to bow out of the full meeting
16:12:22 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... the wiki list is up-to-date
16:12:31 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... a new meeting on automotive accessibility
16:12:49 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... will be organized as a breakout session
16:13:57 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... THe meeting pattern is based on our live in person TPACs
16:14:13 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
16:14:13 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review & Announcements; W3C Calendar: https://www.w3.org/Guide/meetings/organize.html <https://www.w3.org/Guide/meetings/organize.html> -- taken up [from
16:14:16 <Zakim> ... janina]
16:14:30 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, close item 1
16:14:30 <Zakim> agendum 1, Agenda Review & Announcements; W3C Calendar: https://www.w3.org/Guide/meetings/organize.html <https://www.w3.org/Guide/meetings/organize.html>, closed
16:14:33 <Zakim> I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:14:33 <Zakim> 3. Task Force Updates; [from janina]
16:14:38 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, close item 2
16:14:38 <Zakim> agendum 2, TPAC Planning <https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2021/GroupMeetings>, closed
16:14:40 <Zakim> I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:14:40 <Zakim> 3. Task Force Updates; [from janina]
16:14:47 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, take up item 3
16:14:47 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Task Force Updates; -- taken up [from janina]
16:15:37 <Lionel_Wolberger> Joshue108: XAUR has been published
16:17:18 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: RQTF is discussing SAUR
16:17:29 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... it will soon be ready
16:17:43 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... there was a relevant white paper from BBC
16:18:54 <Lionel_Wolberger> PaulG_: Pronunciation is clarifying language around the suggestion API
16:19:01 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... an i18n issues
16:19:24 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger: Personalization spent a lot of the meeting planning for TPAC
16:20:08 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... Smoothed how we track actions, not using the wiki so much as git (with labels) and w3c action tracker
16:20:14 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
16:20:15 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- FAST Progress) -- taken up [from janina]
16:20:48 <Lionel_Wolberger> Joshue108: Jake has been working on a methodology that we can use for gap analysis of user needs and outcomes
16:21:45 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... Jake from Functional needs (also active in Silver)
16:22:09 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... In the Error TF (sub-group of Silver)
16:22:23 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... checking if the errors can be parsed through this methodology is effective
16:22:31 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... user needs list and various functional outcomes
16:22:41 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... should have results by end of this week
16:23:00 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
16:23:00 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- New Charters Review <https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Horizontal+review+requested> -- taken up [from janina]
16:23:36 <MichaelC> present+
16:23:39 <Lionel_Wolberger> MichaelC: No new charters this week
16:23:51 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, close item 5
16:23:51 <Zakim> agendum 5, New Charters Review <https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Horizontal+review+requested>, closed
16:23:53 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:23:53 <Zakim> 6. Accessibility Review Comment Tracker <https://w3c.github.io/horizontal-issue-tracker/?repo=w3c/a11y-review> [from janina]
16:23:57 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, take up item 6
16:23:57 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- Accessibility Review Comment Tracker <https://w3c.github.io/horizontal-issue-tracker/?repo=w3c/a11y-review> -- taken up [from janina]
16:24:16 <Lionel_Wolberger> q?
16:24:17 <MichaelC> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/6351
16:24:38 <Lionel_Wolberger> MichaelC: Scroll bar width, Paul put in a comment and generated some debate
16:25:35 <Lionel_Wolberger> PaulG_: In the discussion, the trend is to assume that we cannot influence browser behavior
16:26:01 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... I advocated for adding thick
16:26:29 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... Browsers are bad at detecting when scroll bars are needed
16:26:49 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... "thin" is in the spec, but "thick" was shot down
16:27:12 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... the justification is the use of the spec when that is not a feature that they want authors to control, that is not appropriate
16:27:40 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... since APA has not said that thick is generally required, they have nothing to point to
16:27:55 <Lionel_Wolberger> becky: can't users override CSS, and a user could request 'thick'?
16:28:04 <Lionel_Wolberger> PaulG_: Sounds good to me, but not to them
16:28:05 <Lionel_Wolberger> C
16:28:40 <Lionel_Wolberger> MichaelC: Sounds like they are ignoring an a11y issue for reasons that are not very well founded
16:28:55 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: We had a use case as well: on zoom, this would be needed
16:29:18 <Lionel_Wolberger> PaulG_: They retort that zoom is handled by zoom, the browsers can have a setting that scroll bars grow with zoom or remain as-is
16:29:33 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... all of the above is in the browsers' hands, and not in the CSS
16:30:20 <Lionel_Wolberger> PaulG_: We could assert a AAA requirement that a widget's scrollbars could be thickened with CSS
16:31:10 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: AAA is a 2.x specification for WCAG, it's likely late for 2.2
16:31:20 <becky> q?
16:31:51 <PaulG_> the "reel" https://every-layout.dev/layouts/reel/
16:31:58 <Lionel_Wolberger> MichaelC: I do see that it is browser developers pushing back in that discussion
16:32:12 <IanPouncey> IanPouncey has joined #apa
16:32:41 <Lionel_Wolberger> PaulG_: How could it be a AAA issue without a CSS method to control it? Implies needing a ton of JS
16:33:10 <Lionel_Wolberger> becky: Use case, designing an exam for low vision people. The page is designed to have large text, and that population would want the thick scrollbar.
16:33:56 <Lionel_Wolberger> IanPouncey: Leaning on WCAG for this has an issue, as they dont rely on browser defaults (similar issue with placeholder text)
16:34:31 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: Add this to the agenda of the group meeting
16:35:44 <Lionel_Wolberger> becky: We could say, if 'thin' was a mistake and you do not want thin & wide, then remove 'thin'
16:36:19 <Lionel_Wolberger> MichaelC: Recording that APA thinks our use cases are enough of a reason to address this, and we should meet at TPAC
16:37:06 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
16:37:06 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- New on TR <http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html> -- taken up [from janina]
16:37:28 <MichaelC> -> https://www.w3.org/TR/localizable-manifests/ Developing Localizable Manifests
16:38:39 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: p11n is going to raise the issue that 'lang' attribute does not support today's and tomorrow's text-to-speech needs
16:38:48 <MichaelC> -> https://www.w3.org/TR/virtual-keyboard/ VirtualKeyboard API
16:40:50 <becky> q?
16:40:50 <Lionel_Wolberger> action: FredrikFischer to review VirtualKeyboard API  https://www.w3.org/TR/virtual-keyboard/
16:40:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2307 - Review virtualkeyboard api  https://www.w3.org/tr/virtual-keyboard/ [on Fredrik Fischer - due 2021-09-01].
16:41:06 <MichaelC> action-2307: https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/VirtualKeyboard_API
16:41:06 <trackbot> Notes added to action-2307 Review virtualkeyboard api https://www.w3.org/tr/virtual-keyboard/.
16:41:43 <MichaelC> -> https://www.w3.org/TR/webxr-ar-module-1/ WebXR Augmented Reality Module - Level 1
16:43:07 <Lionel_Wolberger> MichaelC: No review needed.
16:43:17 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
16:43:17 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- CSS Update (Amy) <https://github.com/w3c/css-a11y/issues> -- taken up [from janina]
16:43:36 <amy_c> https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues/11
16:43:45 <amy_c> https://www.w3.org/TR/2021/CRD-css-masking-1-20210805/#intro
16:44:20 <Lionel_Wolberger> amy_c: CSS Masking Module Level 1. The main focus deals with SVGs
16:44:59 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... seems that APA will not have a lot to say here
16:45:28 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: Let's propose the TPAC joint meeting be at this hour, which we share anyway
16:47:59 <Lionel_Wolberger> becky: Regarding CSS Masking Module Level 1, decided: APA has no comments.
16:48:25 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
16:48:25 <Zakim> agendum 9 -- Dangling Spec Review Cleanup: <https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Category:Spec_Review_Assigned> -- taken up [from janina]
16:48:31 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, close item 9
16:48:31 <Zakim> agendum 9, Dangling Spec Review Cleanup: <https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Category:Spec_Review_Assigned>, closed
16:48:34 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:48:34 <Zakim> 10. Actions Checkin (Specs) <https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/open> [from janina]
16:48:35 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, take up item 10
16:48:35 <Zakim> agendum 10 -- Actions Checkin (Specs) <https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/open> -- taken up [from janina]
16:49:27 <becky> discussing Review mitigating browser fingerprinting in web specifications (https://www.w3.org/wai/apa/wiki/mitigating_browser_fingerprinting_in_web_specifications)
16:49:58 <becky> https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/2306
16:50:38 <becky> https://www.w3.org/TR/fingerprinting-guidance/
16:51:25 <IanPouncey> IanPouncey has joined #apa
16:55:07 <Lionel_Wolberger> FredrikFischer: The only note I had was the accessibility is used as a word meaning "available" or "connected." It would avoid confusion if the note used another word
16:56:37 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: availability is a generally accepted word for this concept. So APA should point this out.
16:57:42 <Lionel_Wolberger> FredrikFischer: I will communicate this to them.
16:57:45 <becky> ACTION-2302: Review epub 3 text-to-speech enhancements 1.0,  https://www.w3.org/tr/epub-tts-10,
16:57:45 <trackbot> Notes added to ACTION-2302 Review epub 3 text-to-speech enhancements 1.0, https://www.w3.org/tr/epub-tts-10, due in 2 weeks.
16:58:39 <Lionel_Wolberger> FredrikFischer: I find it good work, a good doc. Its work is overtaken by p11n
16:59:38 <Lionel_Wolberger> becky: We know we will be discussing this further at TPAC, so no further action needed at this time.
17:00:23 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, end meeting
17:00:23 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been FredrikFischer, mike_beganyi, IanPouncey, PaulG_, Lionel_Wolberger, becky, janina, amy_c, Jonny_James, MichaelC
17:00:26 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:00:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/08/25-apa-minutes.html Zakim
17:00:28 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Lionel_Wolberger; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:00:32 <Zakim> Zakim has left #apa
17:00:33 <becky> rrsagent, make minutes
17:00:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/08/25-apa-minutes.html becky
17:01:15 <Lionel_Wolberger> says to becky: looks good
17:01:53 <janina> janina has changed the topic to: APA Weekly Teleconference; Wednesday 1 September at 1600Z
17:01:56 <becky> rrsagent, bye
17:01:56 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2021/08/25-apa-actions.rdf :
17:01:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: FredrikFischer to review VirtualKeyboard API  https://www.w3.org/TR/virtual-keyboard/ [1]
17:01:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2021/08/25-apa-irc#T16-40-50-1