17:51:26 RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg 17:51:26 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/08/24-aria-apg-irc 17:51:38 Zakim has joined #aria-apg 17:51:48 zakim, clear agenda 17:51:48 agenda cleared 17:51:54 rrsagent, make log public 17:52:27 MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force 17:52:36 CHAIR: Jemma 17:53:17 Jemma has joined #aria-apg 17:53:32 rrsagent, make minutes 17:53:32 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/08/24-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King 17:53:38 present+ 17:53:40 present+ 17:55:03 agenda: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/August-24%2C-2021-Agenda 18:00:25 Rich_Noah has joined #aria-apg 18:00:34 MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria-apg 18:00:42 present+ 18:00:55 present+ 18:02:07 jongund has joined #aria-apg 18:02:16 present+ jongund 18:03:16 scribe: MarkMcCarthy 18:03:42 TOPIC: APG redesgin project update (Rich Noah) 18:04:28 Rich_Noah: we've looked at all the feedback we've gotten so far and tried to separate between functionality, usability, and content 18:05:19 Rich_Noah: we've got the timing set, for how long it'll take to accomplish each goal, and Isaac is going to have to go through and see what he'll need to change. looks like we can start changes next week, after which Isaac can start usability reviews 18:05:41 sarah_higley has joined #aria-apg 18:05:42 Rich_Noah: he may start those the week of 13 September 18:06:04 Matt_King: did you list the changes you'll be making? 18:06:07 https://github.com/w3c/apg-redesign/issues/1#issuecomment-896255700 18:06:22 Rich_Noah: not yet, we're still sorting out some details. once we do that, it'll be included in the issue 18:06:26 Matt_King: awesome, thanks so much! 18:06:55 siri has joined #aria-apg 18:07:00 jongund: what will people be asked to do in the usability study? 18:07:20 Rich_Noah: it'll follow the normal path of giving a task and recording what barriers or detractors exist. Isaac will define that 18:07:30 Matt_King: they'll all be related to the information architecture 18:07:34 Rich_Noah: yep that's right 18:07:48 Matt_King: so essentially top level nav, how that's represented, and general layout. we're not going very deep 18:07:50 Rich_Noah: correct 18:08:29 q+ to ask who will be the testers and how they will be recruited. 18:08:31 Matt_King: so we're not looking _specifically_ at the example pages or jump to functions, it's just the presentation 18:08:42 jongund: that makes sense, I was just curious about the tasks 18:08:49 present+ Jamesn 18:08:52 Matt_King: would Isaac be able to give us an update on that next week, Rich_Noah? 18:08:53 present+ Siri 18:08:58 Rich_Noah: I can ask him, sure! 18:09:57 Matt_King: we should note that there's US holiday weekend coming up, so we may want to shift around the 7 September meeting. Should that be another topic Jemma? 18:09:58 Jemma: sure 18:10:19 ack Je 18:10:19 Jemma, you wanted to ask who will be the testers and how they will be recruited. 18:10:35 Jemma: I was wondering who the target testers are? 18:10:58 Rich_Noah: Last I heard from Isaac, APG members, Slack a11y group participants (if they choose) as 3rd party input 18:11:02 Jemma: that's right, cool,, thanks! 18:11:05 Topic: meeting schedule next week 18:11:16 TOPIC: Meeting for 7 September? 18:11:54 Matt_King: 6 September is Labor Day in the US. 18:12:05 s/meeting schedule next week/ 18:12:10 Jemma: Objections to no meeting on 7 September? 18:12:28 Matt_King: I'd like to have a meeting if there are enough people to do so, unless lots of folks with extended plans 18:12:43 Matt_King: if we didn't meet, the next meeting would be 14 Sept 18:12:48 Jemma: Let's decide next week 18:12:51 TOPIC: Tooltip design meeting Update (Sarah Higley) 18:13:27 jesdaigle has joined #aria-apg 18:13:37 sarah_higley: we got time to talk about behavior but not semantics, yet 18:13:57 sarah_higley: looking at the error example, conclusion was that "people do it, but should we?" 18:14:14 feedback "Notes from the meeting on 8/17: 18:14:14 18:14:14 Example brainstorming: 18:14:14 18:14:14 example of double-tooltip: info and error on the same input at the same time (had pushback on showing this as an example, question of whether it's actually a common enough pattern to warrant showing it + it has a lot of drawbacks) 18:14:14 Show both an icon button toolbar w/ tooltips and a single icon tooltip 18:14:14 form field tooltip 18:14:16 toggletips and non-modal dialogs 18:14:16 Need to make sure it's clarified that a toggletip is not a tooltip, and be very clear on which examples don't use the tooltip role 18:14:16 Guidance section: 18:14:16 18:14:16 General guidance section: 18:14:16 18:14:17 clearly define traditional tooltip, and what that is vs. toggle-tips/dialogs 18:14:17 a traditional tooltip supposed to replicate the host tooltip/title attribute 18:14:17 that's why there's no interactive content or structured content in a tooltip 18:14:18 segue to next section: if you need anything that couldn't be covered in a title attribute, you also shouldn't put it in a custom tooltip. You'd actually want toggletip/dialog 18:14:18 Behavior: 18:14:18 18:14:19 dismiss on delay: stay away from auto-dismissal entirely -- because if APG shows it, people will complain that their tooltip fails WCAG. APG should not show WCAG-failing examples (Scott, Eric, Jerra all agree) 18:14:19 dismiss on ctrl AND escape (optional) in our example, specify why escape has issues (e.g. in a modal) 18:14:19 (OPTIONAL): delay to show (browsers do) 18:14:20 two examples, toolbar w/ bunch of icon buttons = delay, tooltip on form field = no delay 18:14:20 needs note that explains why optional, why one person might want a delay but another might not, but be internally consistent 18:14:20 Touch: 18:14:21 apple has done some work on this, e.g. first tap shows tooltip, second performs action 18:14:21 apple again: title attribute shows on long press (don't think we can replicate this?) 18:14:21 should we actually do the one touch to show tooltip, second to perform action (straw poll: don't do this, seems counterintuitive) 18:14:22 Suggestion: show the tooltip on touchstart, dismiss on touchend 18:14:22 Voice: doesn't work with this 18:14:22 Need to check with reader view, HCM (e.g. does a tooltip get inserted into the text in reader mode? Does using HTML hidden fix it if it does?) 18:14:23 Doesn't work on a static element either, need to specify that it's bad practice and why (keyboard triggering and screen reader support). Good place to note that one would need a toggle tip instead. 18:14:23 — 18:14:23 You are receiving this because you commented. 18:14:24 Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or unsubscribe." 18:14:33 sarah_higley: it's important to clarify what a traditional tooltip is vs. some alterations. It was clear traditional tooltip should emulate browser behavior (title) 18:14:57 s/—/ 18:15:00 s/You are receiving this because you commented./ 18:15:06 s/Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or unsubscribe."/ 18:15:25 sarah_higley: it's important to show a few different examples because people may be familiar with different styles 18:15:54 sarah_higley: another behavior that might be optional is delaying to show, which browsers sometimes do 18:16:02 sarah_higley: and clarify why you might want delay or not 18:16:32 sarah_higley: we talked about touch a bit. what seemed the most promising was "show on touch start, hide on touch end" which shouldn't interfere with mouse, keyboard, eye control, voice, etc. 18:17:03 sarah_higley: we should double check with reader views and HCM, and if focus behaves weirdly. guidance should be provided for each of those too 18:17:32 sarah_higley: some specific examples we talked about were form fields 18:17:44 siri: you're not talking about tooltips on non-focusable elements, right? 18:17:50 sarah_higley: we did in the sense of "don't do that" 18:18:06 siri: ah ok, I see lots on non-focusable elements which causes issues 18:18:21 siri: what about browse mode with screen readers? 18:18:33 sarah_higley: generally or specifically on non-interactive elements? 18:19:01 sarah_higley: it depends on if focus follows the virtual cursor, and if they work with hover or focus 18:19:10 sarah_higley: the cool thing that came from the meeting was touch start/end 18:19:24 sarah_higley: which could extend to on.focus and on.blur 18:20:08 present+ curtisbellew 18:20:16 Matt_King: is there any discussion about the relavance of the tooltip role itself, and whether or not it's helpful or useful? i'm wondering if, when we test this with a screen reader in ARIA AT, are we going to have an assertion related to the role itself? 18:20:21 present+ sarahhigley 18:20:39 Matt_King: also, do we even need the tooltip role? is that on the agenda to discuss? 18:20:44 CurtBellew has joined #aria-apg 18:20:55 sarah_higley: yes, i'm also interested in that. we didn't get to semantics last time, but hope to this time. 18:20:57 present + 18:21:05 present- curtisbellew 18:21:15 sarah_higley: i'm guessing that'll be the main thing we need to figure out now 18:21:36 pleses join the second last tooltip meeting today at 2pm in cst 18:21:49 Matt_King: so we haven't written assertions for aria-describedby yet, but as we all know it's supported differently across screen readers 18:22:04 Matt_King: it won't be a trivial discussion to get screen reader devs to agree 18:22:41 Matt_King: i don't know if tooltips are a special case and should be treated a special way, like error messages and aria-errormessage 18:22:51 https://uic.zoom.us/j/83190829032?pwd=S0c1Z0E0Uk1MeEt2b053MHB6SzdGdz09 18:23:21 tooltip zoon meeting link is above. 18:23:26 Matt_King: for instance, what if a tooltip contains an error message? we'll need to think about how to give a hint whether something should be automatically announced, and when 18:24:41 Matt_King: i feel like we don't have enough expressions of intent in ARIA for how to deal with some of this stuff, and what should be automatically done, etc. 18:24:59 +1 for discouraging tooltip for error message 18:25:07 sarah_higley: a few things, for the error message, good guidance might be "dont use tooltips for error messages," because those messages are critical and tooltip behavior is inconsistent 18:25:32 s/a few things,/a few things: 18:26:04 sarah_higley: relavent to tooltips specificially, the text in it probably can't be reached with virtual cursor so therre's not necessarily another mechanism to reach it 18:26:24 sarah_higley: generally, the text isn't "on" the page - opposed to a form field with a static description, that's _on_ the page 18:26:55 sarah_higley: maybe hammer in the guidance that "aria-description/-describedby is inconsistent, so don't use for critical behavior" 18:27:20 Matt_King: I don't want to teach people not to use something because ARIA is messy. rather, I want our guidance to be focused around how ARIA should be rendered 18:27:52 Matt_King: maybe it's temporary guidance. something that'd probably be useful to come out of this group is a clear statement of where ARIA falls short WRT tooltips 18:28:25 Matt_King: if we can get some help defining ideal tooltip behavior, that'd give us some more info about what's missing from ARIA to make that work in the real world 18:28:40 +1 to matt 18:28:43 sarah_higley: not just ARIA, the interaction is very inconsistent. so even ironing out ARIA won't make something foolproof 18:28:56 s/is very inconsistent/is also very inconsistent 18:29:22 Matt_King: if we had more consistent behavior in browsrs and AT it'd be clearer to people how these things should work, and would help with more long-term approaches 18:29:33 sarah_higley: i think so too 18:29:43 Matt_King: thank you so much Sarah, I super appreciate your effort 18:30:13 Jemma: any other feedback for Sarah? 18:30:59 siri: how many words are we allowing in a tooltip, or recommendations for something like? 18:31:24 sarah_higley: not sure how we're going to determine the recommended number of words, but that's a good point 18:31:35 sarah_higley: no interactive items for sure, that's a toggle tip 18:31:55 Jemma: can you share who was in the first meeting? 18:32:07 sarah_higley: I didn't note who was there, but 8 people 18:32:16 Jemma: do you expect the same people or different? 18:32:31 sarah_higley: maybe some others in addition, as they couldn't attend this one 18:33:32 q+ 18:33:43 sarah_higley: are there strong opinions on the tooltip role from this group? I don't have any, and not sure if anyone who comes will have any 18:33:50 jamesn: if we recommend it, it should *do* something 18:33:57 ack jamesn 18:34:50 Matt_King: i think that if we were going to recommend it, it should be with the idea in mind that it does something for AT. a suggestion for "this is what it should do" and a good reason for why 18:35:27 Matt_King: I don't want to put us in the spot of having a solution looking for a problem 18:35:38 Matt_King: jamesn, is there a strong reason not to deprecate a role? 18:36:09 jamesn: it _does_ have mappings to things in AT, it's just that AT chooses not to do anything with them. I'd have a hard time justifying deprecation 18:36:34 jamesn: there's a lot of things in ARIA we don't really want people to use, but deprecating is a bit of a nuclear step 18:37:04 Matt_King: another thing to keep in mind then - just because we have a role it doesn't have to be directly surfaced to users 18:37:26 Matt_King: if AT can benefit from knowing which element is a tooltip and it can do something under the hood, then sure, that's neat 18:37:52 jamesn: maybe something like screen magnifiers could use it to make sure to show the tooltip if it comes into view, just spitballing an idea 18:38:12 jamesn: they were created for a reason in the past, i'm just not sure what or why 18:38:32 Matt_King: I'm not sure what system developers would do if that role wasn't there, that's important too 18:39:02 sarah_higley: maybe guidance saying "it's not used, but it's present in the API, and it's not doing harm, and it may be helpful in the future" -- or something like that 18:39:35 TOPIC: Switch pattern 18:39:51 https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1891.html#switch 18:40:07 Matt_King: here's a link to a preview of Jon's pattern 18:41:11 Matt_King: it feels like the description ("A switch is a type of checkbox that has on/off values...") isn't something we want in the APG. Everyone's thoughts? 18:41:20 jongund: that's how it's described in ARIA spec 18:42:08 jongund: it has true and false, the mixed value is invalid. Not sure we want to veer too far away from spec 18:42:33 Matt_King: to me, it doesn't convey an answer to "why use a switch instead of a checkbox?" 18:43:48 Matt_King: we can't say that an AT would say "on/off" vs "checked/not checked," right? 18:44:14 Matt_King: in other words, and simply, how is a switch different from a checkbox? 18:44:23 jongund: basically it comes down to the visual rendering 18:45:01 jamesn: normally the difference is that switches change a state immediately whereas checkboxes often-but-not-always require a submission. this may not always be the case but is often the case 18:46:23 Matt_King: because there's no switch state property in ARIA, and because it's a subclass of checkbox, does that mean if an AT reads it as "switch checkbox, checked," should that pass as a support for switch? 18:46:26 jongund: i'd say no 18:46:44 jamesn: i'd say intermediate. it's a "pass with exceptions" kind of thing 18:47:16 sarah_higley: well, why wouldn't that pass? if a screen reader decides to announce it as a checkbox, say for intution sake, why should that be incorrect? 18:47:29 jongund: to that, if checked/not checked is the same, why have the switch role at all? 18:48:10 Matt_King: Apple wanted something that allowed web UIs to work like iOS UIs, so we made it a subclass of checkbox as a compromise. now we're running into this issue in real life, that's a bit confusing 18:49:17 Matt_King: because the ARIA spec doesn't have anything in it that says the checked attribute should be annonuced differently if that attribute is on a switch... 18:49:40 jongund: i still think that, because it's a switch, it should say "on/off." 18:50:40 Matt_King: what do we tell authors about why a switch should be used? if it behaves like a checkbox, then use a checkbox. if it's about visual rendering, that goes _against_ what we've written in the APG 18:50:49 Jemma: i think writing a note for the spec would be helpful 18:51:28 sarah_higley: the trouble is that it _is_ a visual rendering thing. what jamesn was saying isn't always true anymore. functionally, people use the switch role if it looks like a switch. things like that aren't often used in forms, whereas checkboxes can be used anywhere. 18:51:45 sarah_higley: tl;dr - people use the switch if the thing is supposed to look like an Apple switch 18:52:09 sarah_higley: NVDA moved to announcing switches as checkboxes, right? I don't think it'd be good to say they're wrong, they did that for a reason 18:52:37 jamesn: that's their decision though. if they want to do that, fine. but if a user is reading "click on the switch" and NVDA says it's a checkbox, the user should be aware of those difference 18:53:05 jongund: the competitor to using aria-checked was aria-pressed, right? 18:53:08 siri: a togglebutton, right 18:53:44 jongund: so say for instance, I decided to use a button with aria-pressed to make my switch, instead of a switch role, but it visually looks like a switch. is that wrong? 18:54:34 sarah_higley: i don't think so. we do have 3 different things that have significant overlap, and they all work. so... [chuckle] if they all work in practice, then... 18:54:40 jamesn: right 18:54:48 Jemma: let's call things here -- 18:55:07 Matt_King: we'll continue next week. I have a lot of other questions, and am more conflicted about this. it's a good discussion! 18:55:20 TOPIC: Update on Merged and Open PRs 18:55:28 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pulls?q=is%3Apr+sort%3Aupdated-desc+is%3Aopen++NOT+%22Infrastructure%3A+%22 18:55:34 Matt_King: basically, jongund has already responded to feedback on radios, that's awesome thanks so much! 18:55:55 Matt_King: i'm working on burning down this list, we're getting there. jesdaigle is working on some things too. 18:56:07 zakim, who is here? 18:56:07 Present: Matt_King, Jemma, Rich_Noah, MarkMcCarthy, jongund, Jamesn, Siri, sarahhigley 18:56:09 On IRC I see CurtBellew, jesdaigle, siri, sarah_higley, jongund, MarkMcCarthy, Rich_Noah, Jemma, Zakim, RRSAgent, Matt_King, github-bot, jamesn, MichaelC, s3ththompson, ZoeBijl, 18:56:09 ... trackbot 18:56:37 RRSAgent, make minutes 18:56:37 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/08/24-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy 22:15:53 Zakim has left #aria-apg