IRC log of aria-apg on 2021-08-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/08/24-aria-apg-irc
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17:51:48 [Matt_King]
zakim, clear agenda
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agenda cleared
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rrsagent, make log public
17:52:27 [Matt_King]
MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
17:52:36 [Matt_King]
CHAIR: Jemma
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17:53:32 [Matt_King]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:53:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/08/24-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King
17:53:38 [Matt_King]
present+
17:53:40 [Jemma]
present+
17:55:03 [Matt_King]
agenda: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/August-24%2C-2021-Agenda
18:00:25 [Rich_Noah]
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18:00:34 [MarkMcCarthy]
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18:00:42 [Rich_Noah]
present+
18:00:55 [MarkMcCarthy]
present+
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18:02:16 [jongund]
present+ jongund
18:03:16 [MarkMcCarthy]
scribe: MarkMcCarthy
18:03:42 [MarkMcCarthy]
TOPIC: APG redesgin project update (Rich Noah)
18:04:28 [MarkMcCarthy]
Rich_Noah: we've looked at all the feedback we've gotten so far and tried to separate between functionality, usability, and content
18:05:19 [MarkMcCarthy]
Rich_Noah: we've got the timing set, for how long it'll take to accomplish each goal, and Isaac is going to have to go through and see what he'll need to change. looks like we can start changes next week, after which Isaac can start usability reviews
18:05:41 [sarah_higley]
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18:05:42 [MarkMcCarthy]
Rich_Noah: he may start those the week of 13 September
18:06:04 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: did you list the changes you'll be making?
18:06:07 [Jemma]
https://github.com/w3c/apg-redesign/issues/1#issuecomment-896255700
18:06:22 [MarkMcCarthy]
Rich_Noah: not yet, we're still sorting out some details. once we do that, it'll be included in the issue
18:06:26 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: awesome, thanks so much!
18:06:55 [siri]
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18:07:00 [MarkMcCarthy]
jongund: what will people be asked to do in the usability study?
18:07:20 [MarkMcCarthy]
Rich_Noah: it'll follow the normal path of giving a task and recording what barriers or detractors exist. Isaac will define that
18:07:30 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: they'll all be related to the information architecture
18:07:34 [MarkMcCarthy]
Rich_Noah: yep that's right
18:07:48 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: so essentially top level nav, how that's represented, and general layout. we're not going very deep
18:07:50 [MarkMcCarthy]
Rich_Noah: correct
18:08:29 [Jemma]
q+ to ask who will be the testers and how they will be recruited.
18:08:31 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: so we're not looking _specifically_ at the example pages or jump to functions, it's just the presentation
18:08:42 [MarkMcCarthy]
jongund: that makes sense, I was just curious about the tasks
18:08:49 [Jemma]
present+ Jamesn
18:08:52 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: would Isaac be able to give us an update on that next week, Rich_Noah?
18:08:53 [Jemma]
present+ Siri
18:08:58 [MarkMcCarthy]
Rich_Noah: I can ask him, sure!
18:09:57 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: we should note that there's US holiday weekend coming up, so we may want to shift around the 7 September meeting. Should that be another topic Jemma?
18:09:58 [MarkMcCarthy]
Jemma: sure
18:10:19 [MarkMcCarthy]
ack Je
18:10:19 [Zakim]
Jemma, you wanted to ask who will be the testers and how they will be recruited.
18:10:35 [MarkMcCarthy]
Jemma: I was wondering who the target testers are?
18:10:58 [MarkMcCarthy]
Rich_Noah: Last I heard from Isaac, APG members, Slack a11y group participants (if they choose) as 3rd party input
18:11:02 [MarkMcCarthy]
Jemma: that's right, cool,, thanks!
18:11:05 [Jemma]
Topic: meeting schedule next week
18:11:16 [MarkMcCarthy]
TOPIC: Meeting for 7 September?
18:11:54 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: 6 September is Labor Day in the US.
18:12:05 [Jemma]
s/meeting schedule next week/
18:12:10 [MarkMcCarthy]
Jemma: Objections to no meeting on 7 September?
18:12:28 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: I'd like to have a meeting if there are enough people to do so, unless lots of folks with extended plans
18:12:43 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: if we didn't meet, the next meeting would be 14 Sept
18:12:48 [MarkMcCarthy]
Jemma: Let's decide next week
18:12:51 [MarkMcCarthy]
TOPIC: Tooltip design meeting Update (Sarah Higley)
18:13:27 [jesdaigle]
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18:13:37 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_higley: we got time to talk about behavior but not semantics, yet
18:13:57 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_higley: looking at the error example, conclusion was that "people do it, but should we?"
18:14:14 [Jemma]
feedback "Notes from the meeting on 8/17:
18:14:14 [Jemma]
18:14:14 [Jemma]
Example brainstorming:
18:14:14 [Jemma]
18:14:14 [Jemma]
example of double-tooltip: info and error on the same input at the same time (had pushback on showing this as an example, question of whether it's actually a common enough pattern to warrant showing it + it has a lot of drawbacks)
18:14:14 [Jemma]
Show both an icon button toolbar w/ tooltips and a single icon tooltip
18:14:14 [Jemma]
form field tooltip
18:14:16 [Jemma]
toggletips and non-modal dialogs
18:14:16 [Jemma]
Need to make sure it's clarified that a toggletip is not a tooltip, and be very clear on which examples don't use the tooltip role
18:14:16 [Jemma]
Guidance section:
18:14:16 [Jemma]
18:14:16 [Jemma]
General guidance section:
18:14:16 [Jemma]
18:14:17 [Jemma]
clearly define traditional tooltip, and what that is vs. toggle-tips/dialogs
18:14:17 [Jemma]
a traditional tooltip supposed to replicate the host tooltip/title attribute
18:14:17 [Jemma]
that's why there's no interactive content or structured content in a tooltip
18:14:18 [Jemma]
segue to next section: if you need anything that couldn't be covered in a title attribute, you also shouldn't put it in a custom tooltip. You'd actually want toggletip/dialog
18:14:18 [Jemma]
Behavior:
18:14:18 [Jemma]
18:14:19 [Jemma]
dismiss on delay: stay away from auto-dismissal entirely -- because if APG shows it, people will complain that their tooltip fails WCAG. APG should not show WCAG-failing examples (Scott, Eric, Jerra all agree)
18:14:19 [Jemma]
dismiss on ctrl AND escape (optional) in our example, specify why escape has issues (e.g. in a modal)
18:14:19 [Jemma]
(OPTIONAL): delay to show (browsers do)
18:14:20 [Jemma]
two examples, toolbar w/ bunch of icon buttons = delay, tooltip on form field = no delay
18:14:20 [Jemma]
needs note that explains why optional, why one person might want a delay but another might not, but be internally consistent
18:14:20 [Jemma]
Touch:
18:14:21 [Jemma]
apple has done some work on this, e.g. first tap shows tooltip, second performs action
18:14:21 [Jemma]
apple again: title attribute shows on long press (don't think we can replicate this?)
18:14:21 [Jemma]
should we actually do the one touch to show tooltip, second to perform action (straw poll: don't do this, seems counterintuitive)
18:14:22 [Jemma]
Suggestion: show the tooltip on touchstart, dismiss on touchend
18:14:22 [Jemma]
Voice: doesn't work with this
18:14:22 [Jemma]
Need to check with reader view, HCM (e.g. does a tooltip get inserted into the text in reader mode? Does using HTML hidden fix it if it does?)
18:14:23 [Jemma]
Doesn't work on a static element either, need to specify that it's bad practice and why (keyboard triggering and screen reader support). Good place to note that one would need a toggle tip instead.
18:14:23 [Jemma]
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18:14:23 [Jemma]
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18:14:24 [Jemma]
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18:14:33 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_higley: it's important to clarify what a traditional tooltip is vs. some alterations. It was clear traditional tooltip should emulate browser behavior (title)
18:14:57 [MarkMcCarthy]
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18:15:25 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_higley: it's important to show a few different examples because people may be familiar with different styles
18:15:54 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_higley: another behavior that might be optional is delaying to show, which browsers sometimes do
18:16:02 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_higley: and clarify why you might want delay or not
18:16:32 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_higley: we talked about touch a bit. what seemed the most promising was "show on touch start, hide on touch end" which shouldn't interfere with mouse, keyboard, eye control, voice, etc.
18:17:03 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_higley: we should double check with reader views and HCM, and if focus behaves weirdly. guidance should be provided for each of those too
18:17:32 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_higley: some specific examples we talked about were form fields
18:17:44 [MarkMcCarthy]
siri: you're not talking about tooltips on non-focusable elements, right?
18:17:50 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_higley: we did in the sense of "don't do that"
18:18:06 [MarkMcCarthy]
siri: ah ok, I see lots on non-focusable elements which causes issues
18:18:21 [MarkMcCarthy]
siri: what about browse mode with screen readers?
18:18:33 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_higley: generally or specifically on non-interactive elements?
18:19:01 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_higley: it depends on if focus follows the virtual cursor, and if they work with hover or focus
18:19:10 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_higley: the cool thing that came from the meeting was touch start/end
18:19:24 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_higley: which could extend to on.focus and on.blur
18:20:08 [Jemma]
present+ curtisbellew
18:20:16 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: is there any discussion about the relavance of the tooltip role itself, and whether or not it's helpful or useful? i'm wondering if, when we test this with a screen reader in ARIA AT, are we going to have an assertion related to the role itself?
18:20:21 [Jemma]
present+ sarahhigley
18:20:39 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: also, do we even need the tooltip role? is that on the agenda to discuss?
18:20:44 [CurtBellew]
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18:20:55 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_higley: yes, i'm also interested in that. we didn't get to semantics last time, but hope to this time.
18:20:57 [CurtBellew]
present +
18:21:05 [MarkMcCarthy]
present- curtisbellew
18:21:15 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_higley: i'm guessing that'll be the main thing we need to figure out now
18:21:36 [Jemma]
pleses join the second last tooltip meeting today at 2pm in cst
18:21:49 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: so we haven't written assertions for aria-describedby yet, but as we all know it's supported differently across screen readers
18:22:04 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: it won't be a trivial discussion to get screen reader devs to agree
18:22:41 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: i don't know if tooltips are a special case and should be treated a special way, like error messages and aria-errormessage
18:22:51 [Jemma]
https://uic.zoom.us/j/83190829032?pwd=S0c1Z0E0Uk1MeEt2b053MHB6SzdGdz09
18:23:21 [Jemma]
tooltip zoon meeting link is above.
18:23:26 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: for instance, what if a tooltip contains an error message? we'll need to think about how to give a hint whether something should be automatically announced, and when
18:24:41 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: i feel like we don't have enough expressions of intent in ARIA for how to deal with some of this stuff, and what should be automatically done, etc.
18:24:59 [Jemma]
+1 for discouraging tooltip for error message
18:25:07 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_higley: a few things, for the error message, good guidance might be "dont use tooltips for error messages," because those messages are critical and tooltip behavior is inconsistent
18:25:32 [MarkMcCarthy]
s/a few things,/a few things:
18:26:04 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_higley: relavent to tooltips specificially, the text in it probably can't be reached with virtual cursor so therre's not necessarily another mechanism to reach it
18:26:24 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_higley: generally, the text isn't "on" the page - opposed to a form field with a static description, that's _on_ the page
18:26:55 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_higley: maybe hammer in the guidance that "aria-description/-describedby is inconsistent, so don't use for critical behavior"
18:27:20 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: I don't want to teach people not to use something because ARIA is messy. rather, I want our guidance to be focused around how ARIA should be rendered
18:27:52 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: maybe it's temporary guidance. something that'd probably be useful to come out of this group is a clear statement of where ARIA falls short WRT tooltips
18:28:25 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: if we can get some help defining ideal tooltip behavior, that'd give us some more info about what's missing from ARIA to make that work in the real world
18:28:40 [Jemma]
+1 to matt
18:28:43 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_higley: not just ARIA, the interaction is very inconsistent. so even ironing out ARIA won't make something foolproof
18:28:56 [MarkMcCarthy]
s/is very inconsistent/is also very inconsistent
18:29:22 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: if we had more consistent behavior in browsrs and AT it'd be clearer to people how these things should work, and would help with more long-term approaches
18:29:33 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_higley: i think so too
18:29:43 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: thank you so much Sarah, I super appreciate your effort
18:30:13 [MarkMcCarthy]
Jemma: any other feedback for Sarah?
18:30:59 [MarkMcCarthy]
siri: how many words are we allowing in a tooltip, or recommendations for something like?
18:31:24 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_higley: not sure how we're going to determine the recommended number of words, but that's a good point
18:31:35 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_higley: no interactive items for sure, that's a toggle tip
18:31:55 [MarkMcCarthy]
Jemma: can you share who was in the first meeting?
18:32:07 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_higley: I didn't note who was there, but 8 people
18:32:16 [MarkMcCarthy]
Jemma: do you expect the same people or different?
18:32:31 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_higley: maybe some others in addition, as they couldn't attend this one
18:33:32 [jamesn]
q+
18:33:43 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_higley: are there strong opinions on the tooltip role from this group? I don't have any, and not sure if anyone who comes will have any
18:33:50 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: if we recommend it, it should *do* something
18:33:57 [MarkMcCarthy]
ack jamesn
18:34:50 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: i think that if we were going to recommend it, it should be with the idea in mind that it does something for AT. a suggestion for "this is what it should do" and a good reason for why
18:35:27 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: I don't want to put us in the spot of having a solution looking for a problem
18:35:38 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: jamesn, is there a strong reason not to deprecate a role?
18:36:09 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: it _does_ have mappings to things in AT, it's just that AT chooses not to do anything with them. I'd have a hard time justifying deprecation
18:36:34 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: there's a lot of things in ARIA we don't really want people to use, but deprecating is a bit of a nuclear step
18:37:04 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: another thing to keep in mind then - just because we have a role it doesn't have to be directly surfaced to users
18:37:26 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: if AT can benefit from knowing which element is a tooltip and it can do something under the hood, then sure, that's neat
18:37:52 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: maybe something like screen magnifiers could use it to make sure to show the tooltip if it comes into view, just spitballing an idea
18:38:12 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: they were created for a reason in the past, i'm just not sure what or why
18:38:32 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: I'm not sure what system developers would do if that role wasn't there, that's important too
18:39:02 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_higley: maybe guidance saying "it's not used, but it's present in the API, and it's not doing harm, and it may be helpful in the future" -- or something like that
18:39:35 [MarkMcCarthy]
TOPIC: Switch pattern
18:39:51 [Jemma]
https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1891.html#switch
18:40:07 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: here's a link to a preview of Jon's pattern
18:41:11 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: it feels like the description ("A switch is a type of checkbox that has on/off values...") isn't something we want in the APG. Everyone's thoughts?
18:41:20 [MarkMcCarthy]
jongund: that's how it's described in ARIA spec
18:42:08 [MarkMcCarthy]
jongund: it has true and false, the mixed value is invalid. Not sure we want to veer too far away from spec
18:42:33 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: to me, it doesn't convey an answer to "why use a switch instead of a checkbox?"
18:43:48 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: we can't say that an AT would say "on/off" vs "checked/not checked," right?
18:44:14 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: in other words, and simply, how is a switch different from a checkbox?
18:44:23 [MarkMcCarthy]
jongund: basically it comes down to the visual rendering
18:45:01 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: normally the difference is that switches change a state immediately whereas checkboxes often-but-not-always require a submission. this may not always be the case but is often the case
18:46:23 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: because there's no switch state property in ARIA, and because it's a subclass of checkbox, does that mean if an AT reads it as "switch checkbox, checked," should that pass as a support for switch?
18:46:26 [MarkMcCarthy]
jongund: i'd say no
18:46:44 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: i'd say intermediate. it's a "pass with exceptions" kind of thing
18:47:16 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_higley: well, why wouldn't that pass? if a screen reader decides to announce it as a checkbox, say for intution sake, why should that be incorrect?
18:47:29 [MarkMcCarthy]
jongund: to that, if checked/not checked is the same, why have the switch role at all?
18:48:10 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: Apple wanted something that allowed web UIs to work like iOS UIs, so we made it a subclass of checkbox as a compromise. now we're running into this issue in real life, that's a bit confusing
18:49:17 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: because the ARIA spec doesn't have anything in it that says the checked attribute should be annonuced differently if that attribute is on a switch...
18:49:40 [MarkMcCarthy]
jongund: i still think that, because it's a switch, it should say "on/off."
18:50:40 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: what do we tell authors about why a switch should be used? if it behaves like a checkbox, then use a checkbox. if it's about visual rendering, that goes _against_ what we've written in the APG
18:50:49 [MarkMcCarthy]
Jemma: i think writing a note for the spec would be helpful
18:51:28 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_higley: the trouble is that it _is_ a visual rendering thing. what jamesn was saying isn't always true anymore. functionally, people use the switch role if it looks like a switch. things like that aren't often used in forms, whereas checkboxes can be used anywhere.
18:51:45 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_higley: tl;dr - people use the switch if the thing is supposed to look like an Apple switch
18:52:09 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_higley: NVDA moved to announcing switches as checkboxes, right? I don't think it'd be good to say they're wrong, they did that for a reason
18:52:37 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: that's their decision though. if they want to do that, fine. but if a user is reading "click on the switch" and NVDA says it's a checkbox, the user should be aware of those difference
18:53:05 [MarkMcCarthy]
jongund: the competitor to using aria-checked was aria-pressed, right?
18:53:08 [MarkMcCarthy]
siri: a togglebutton, right
18:53:44 [MarkMcCarthy]
jongund: so say for instance, I decided to use a button with aria-pressed to make my switch, instead of a switch role, but it visually looks like a switch. is that wrong?
18:54:34 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_higley: i don't think so. we do have 3 different things that have significant overlap, and they all work. so... [chuckle] if they all work in practice, then...
18:54:40 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: right
18:54:48 [MarkMcCarthy]
Jemma: let's call things here --
18:55:07 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: we'll continue next week. I have a lot of other questions, and am more conflicted about this. it's a good discussion!
18:55:20 [MarkMcCarthy]
TOPIC: Update on Merged and Open PRs
18:55:28 [Jemma]
https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pulls?q=is%3Apr+sort%3Aupdated-desc+is%3Aopen++NOT+%22Infrastructure%3A+%22
18:55:34 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: basically, jongund has already responded to feedback on radios, that's awesome thanks so much!
18:55:55 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: i'm working on burning down this list, we're getting there. jesdaigle is working on some things too.
18:56:07 [MarkMcCarthy]
zakim, who is here?
18:56:07 [Zakim]
Present: Matt_King, Jemma, Rich_Noah, MarkMcCarthy, jongund, Jamesn, Siri, sarahhigley
18:56:09 [Zakim]
On IRC I see CurtBellew, jesdaigle, siri, sarah_higley, jongund, MarkMcCarthy, Rich_Noah, Jemma, Zakim, RRSAgent, Matt_King, github-bot, jamesn, MichaelC, s3ththompson, ZoeBijl,
18:56:09 [Zakim]
... trackbot
18:56:37 [MarkMcCarthy]
RRSAgent, make minutes
18:56:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/08/24-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy
22:15:53 [Zakim]
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