IRC log of silver on 2021-08-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/08/20-silver-irc

13:21:34 [Zakim]

RRSAgent, make logs Public

13:21:35 [Zakim]

Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group

13:22:00 [jeanne]

present:

13:22:00 [jeanne]

chair: Shawn, jeanne

13:22:00 [jeanne]

present+

13:22:00 [jeanne]

zakim, clear agenda

13:22:00 [Zakim]

agenda cleared

13:22:01 [jeanne]

rrsagent, make minutes

13:22:01 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/08/20-silver-minutes.html jeanne

13:22:01 [jeanne]

q?

13:22:06 [jeanne]

q-

13:29:27 [jeanne]

agenda+ TPAC

13:29:27 [jeanne]

agenda+ Approach to Publishing WCAG 3 survey

13:29:27 [jeanne]

agenda+ Alt Text update

13:29:27 [jeanne]

agenda+ Issues

13:52:50 [Lauriat]

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13:52:53 [Lauriat]

agenda?

13:53:01 [Lauriat]

Present+

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14:00:11 [JF]

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14:00:29 [JF]

agenda?

14:00:35 [JF]

Present+

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14:01:23 [jenniferS]

present+

14:01:29 [bruce_bailey]

present+

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14:05:30 [ChrisLoiselle]

scribe: ChrisLoiselle

14:05:44 [Lauriat]

Zakim, take up item 1

14:05:44 [Zakim]

agendum 1 -- TPAC -- taken up [from jeanne]

14:05:55 [Chuck]

agenda?

14:06:04 [jeanne]

zakim, take up item 1

14:06:04 [Zakim]

agendum 1 -- TPAC -- taken up [from jeanne]

14:06:06 [jeanne]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/TPAC_2021_Meeting_Overview

14:06:34 [ChrisLoiselle]

ShawnL: Talks to joint session targeting and outreach.

14:06:52 [ChrisLoiselle]

ShawnL: Have we done any outreach to immersive captions or any other groups?

14:07:35 [ChrisLoiselle]

Jeanne: I know COGA would like to talk to us, clear words group is working with COGA. Not sure if other things are needed to discuss with COGA. Anyone else?

14:08:08 [ChrisLoiselle]

ShawnL: I think it would be a good point to reach out to COGA to see where they are and talk to points they want to cover.

14:08:24 [ChrisLoiselle]

ShawnL: Action item to follow up with Rain on COGA topics.

14:08:38 [ChrisLoiselle]

Jeanne: Epub , APA is meeting with Epub and invites us to attend.

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14:09:09 [sajkaj]

present+

14:10:05 [ChrisLoiselle]

ShawnL: I know they have the Epub guidelines, not sure if they plan on rolling that entirely in.

14:10:07 [ChrisLoiselle]

q?

14:10:31 [ChrisLoiselle]

Janina: I don't think it is too early to cover these type of subjects or topics.

14:12:19 [ChrisLoiselle]

Janina: I think it may be useful and talk to how much time we spend on topic. There are a lot of registries, published in various places. W3 is not contemplating being a registry ...

14:12:44 [ChrisLoiselle]

... Talks to pronunciation, etc.

14:12:52 [ChrisLoiselle]

Jeanne: This sounds specific

14:13:19 [ChrisLoiselle]

Janina: Yes, it is . Silver perhaps is interested in registries portion but perhaps not pronunciation

14:13:44 [ChrisLoiselle]

Jeanne: Who are the contacts?

14:14:25 [ChrisLoiselle]

Janina: Charles and DeVonish. If you wanted to write them and Cc me that would be great.. Deadline is late September . Benefit is to lock up early to get timeframes set.

14:14:52 [ChrisLoiselle]

Jeanne: I will let him know .

14:15:28 [ChrisLoiselle]

Janina: If they prefer, we can meet in a longer meeting if makes sense to APA, Epub , etc.

14:15:54 [ChrisLoiselle]

Janina: EO and glossary WAI topic is also a topic of discussion.

14:16:02 [ChrisLoiselle]

q?

14:16:07 [ChrisLoiselle]

Jeanne: I put it on agenda for EO

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14:16:42 [ChrisLoiselle]

Jeanne: We have three topics for APA, component libraries, third party and protocols.

14:17:15 [ChrisLoiselle]

Janina: APA is expected to meet with Silver during TPAC during the two weeks, just not currently in the planning page.

14:17:44 [ChrisLoiselle]

Jeanne: Is Suzanne on call? Topic related to immersive captions ...

14:18:01 [ChrisLoiselle]

Jeanne: The XR group was working toward that but they aren't active .

14:18:13 [ChrisLoiselle]

Janina: Is JoshO on call? We just publisehed.

14:18:35 [ChrisLoiselle]

ShawnL: I think we should email them as they aren't on call.

14:18:36 [ChrisLoiselle]

q?

14:19:02 [ChrisLoiselle]

Jeanne: Do we have anything on internationalization ?

14:19:51 [ChrisLoiselle]

Janina: We are hoping to resolve before TPAC. It relates to personalization to a degree

14:20:10 [ChrisLoiselle]

Jeanne: On browser testing rules, I think we should have a discussion with them.

14:20:12 [ChrisLoiselle]

?

14:20:17 [ChrisLoiselle]

q?

14:20:23 [ChrisLoiselle]

Jeanne: Is Wilco on call?

14:20:27 [ChrisLoiselle]

ShawnL: No.

14:20:40 [ChrisLoiselle]

Jeanne: Follow up with Wilco will be needed on browser testing.

14:22:02 [ChrisLoiselle]

Jeanne: On breakout sessions, method template, on writing for wcag 3, one is an intro to wcag 3 and latest updates and a maturity model introduction is also a topic .

14:22:41 [ChrisLoiselle]

Jeanne: Talks to bottom of page wiki page on reference points for TPAC, etc.

14:22:44 [ChrisLoiselle]

q?

14:22:49 [Lauriat]

Zakim, take up item 2

14:22:49 [Zakim]

agendum 2 -- Approach to Publishing WCAG 3 survey -- taken up [from jeanne]

14:22:56 [Lauriat]

https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/approach/

14:23:38 [ChrisLoiselle]

ShawnL: Talks to survey on approach and process. We have conversation with chairs with what question 1 on survey outlines.

14:24:11 [ChrisLoiselle]

Question 1 was around issues and proposed solutions

14:24:46 [ChrisLoiselle]

So instead of quarterly public working drafts, we would do the work within editor's drafts

14:25:31 [sajkaj]

q+

14:25:36 [ChrisLoiselle]

ShawnL: We want to hear your feedback , i.e. agree or agree with feedback, or you can disagree , etc.

14:25:45 [ChrisLoiselle]

Second question is other issues unaccounted for

14:25:47 [ChrisLoiselle]

q?

14:26:25 [JF]

ack s

14:26:37 [ChrisLoiselle]

Janina: The survey pretty well describes the difficulties we are coming across.

14:27:25 [sarahhorton]

present+

14:27:47 [ChrisLoiselle]

The changes are massive. I'm not sure the solution is good as is. It is trying to redefine the role of an editor's draft and how it currently functions. I think updating editor's drafts is a very good idea. Understanding working drafts are drafts

14:28:48 [JF]

Q+ to note that there is a difference between an Editor Draft and a Heartbeat publication

14:28:48 [Chuck]

q+

14:28:53 [ChrisLoiselle]

We need to find a way to have those be acceptable on a more regular basis for working drafts. Going to a new definition of what an editor's draft is would add more trouble than it solves across W3C

14:28:56 [ChrisLoiselle]

Q?

14:29:00 [Lauriat]

ack JF

14:29:00 [Zakim]

JF, you wanted to note that there is a difference between an Editor Draft and a Heartbeat publication

14:29:04 [Lauriat]

qv?

14:29:41 [jeanne]

I want to note that heartbeats can be published everyday

14:30:02 [jeanne]

q+

14:30:04 [Lauriat]

ack Chuck

14:30:05 [ChrisLoiselle]

JF: there is a difference between an editor's draft and heartbeat publication. Editor's draft could be updated daily, if applicable. Heartbeat is more hardened. Editor's are most current. When we had a different publishing system, they may have been more beneficial.

14:30:09 [ChrisLoiselle]

q?

14:30:30 [JF]

s/I want to note that heartbeats can be published everyday/I want to note that Editor's Drafts can be published everyday

14:31:05 [jeanne]

Do not edit my comment, JF. I meant what I said.

14:31:24 [ChrisLoiselle]

Chuck: Conversation is on the next AGWG call, I think each person could add tweaks that we could add to or remove from the topic in general. It is not that these were introduced recently , but they came to forefront last week.

14:31:29 [sajkaj]

q+

14:31:35 [ChrisLoiselle]

q?

14:31:41 [Lauriat]

ack jeanne

14:32:33 [ChrisLoiselle]

Jeanne: I disagree with JF. I think the W3C has made it easier to publish working drafts . We have the ability to publish a working draft. W3C has encouraged through their own tools to publish more often.

14:33:07 [ChrisLoiselle]

AIRA in HTML has been publishing 4 to 6 a month. API , published 28 times. A lot of groups publish very often.

14:34:10 [Lauriat]

qv?

14:34:13 [ChrisLoiselle]

Jeanne: AC, Advisory Boards , all want more frequent publications. We can look at updating editors drafts but also do it with publications , doesn't have to be once a year. Not direction of modern W3C

14:34:32 [Lauriat]

ack sajkaj

14:34:39 [ChrisLoiselle]

Jeanne: I don't think we should stop frequent publishing.

14:35:51 [Chuck]

q+ to ask Janina to share link to that process doc.

14:35:58 [ChrisLoiselle]

Janina: I searched for the term in process and don't see Heartbeat. There is a role for updated working drafts . They may or may not be on a heartbeat cadence.

14:36:35 [ChrisLoiselle]

Janina: We should also explore consensus and not unanimous agreement.

14:36:38 [ChrisLoiselle]

q?

14:37:01 [Lauriat]

q+ to reframe this discussion to help folks in this group understand the space so we can have this conversation on Tuesday

14:37:04 [JF]

Respectfully: Revising a Working Draft A Working Group should publish a Working Draft to the W3C Technical Reports page when there have been significant changes to the previous published document that would benefit from review beyond the Working Group. If 6 months elapse without significant changes to a specification, a Working Group should publish a revised Working Draft, whose status section should indicate reasons for the lack of change. (source: htt[CUT]

14:37:15 [ChrisLoiselle]

What is behind it all, is what we want a working draft to show.

14:37:23 [Lauriat]

ack Chuck

14:37:23 [Zakim]

Chuck, you wanted to ask Janina to share link to that process doc.

14:37:23 [ChrisLoiselle]

q?

14:37:31 [JF]

source: https://www.w3.org/2020/Process-20200915/#revising-wd

14:37:41 [sajkaj]

https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Process/Drafts/#registries

14:37:54 [ChrisLoiselle]

Chuck: can you point to the process document?

14:38:53 [ChrisLoiselle]

Jeanne: reads AWK's section 6.26 section.

14:39:02 [Lauriat]

ack Lauriat

14:39:02 [Zakim]

Lauriat, you wanted to reframe this discussion to help folks in this group understand the space so we can have this conversation on Tuesday

14:39:07 [ChrisLoiselle]

q?

14:39:59 [ChrisLoiselle]

ShawnL: Can we timebox rest of conversation for 10 minutes as AGWG is talking to this on Tuesday.

14:40:15 [ChrisLoiselle]

Is there anyone on call that has questions on what the problem is that we are trying to solve?

14:40:26 [ChrisLoiselle]

q?

14:41:34 [ChrisLoiselle]

ShawnL: Any item preventing anyone from responding to survey?

14:41:45 [ChrisLoiselle]

q?

14:42:28 [ChrisLoiselle]

Rachael: It indicates we are trying to work through the process and that an editor's note is not able to handle the issue in entirety.

14:42:28 [Lauriat]

Bringing the survey link back, please fill it out for Tuesday's discussion! https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/approach/

14:42:31 [ChrisLoiselle]

q?

14:43:08 [Lauriat]

Zakim, take up next item

14:43:08 [Zakim]

agendum 1 -- TPAC -- taken up [from jeanne]

14:43:15 [Lauriat]

Zakim, take up item 3

14:43:15 [Zakim]

agendum 3 -- Alt Text update -- taken up [from jeanne]

14:43:19 [ChrisLoiselle]

ShawnL: Two hour discussion with AGWG on Tuesday will review this very topic.

14:43:49 [Makoto]

Images - WAI Tutorial https://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/images/

14:44:17 [ChrisLoiselle]

Makota: On alt text update , we are done with phase 1 . For the 4 types of images, we had methods in first public working draft. We reviewed WCAG 2.1 documents and added examples.

14:44:27 [Makoto]

We updated these 4 methods https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG3/2021/outcomes/text-alternative-available

14:44:34 [ChrisLoiselle]

We now have updated version of methods (pastes link).

14:44:45 [ChrisLoiselle]

We are done with the methods.

14:45:50 [Makoto]

Alt Text Subgroup - Silver Wiki https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Alt_Text_Subgroup

14:45:51 [ChrisLoiselle]

We've also built techniques for these . We used Google docs for our work. I think Jeanne is working on providing these in HTML5 templates. I will update our subgroups wiki with these documents.

14:46:42 [ChrisLoiselle]

In phase 2, we will add more examples and add, edit and modify to the future version of the working draft.

14:46:48 [jeanne]

q+ to discuss scheduling when Makoto is finished.

14:47:27 [Makoto]

An Alt Decision Tree https://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/images/decision-tree/

14:48:10 [ChrisLoiselle]

The alt text guideline has seven methods on different types of images. It is not straightforward as to how to determine of which types of images . We used alt decision tree as a gateway of seven methods it would be helpful to use this , I'm not sure how to incorporate this into guideline structure of wcag 3

14:48:34 [Lauriat]

ack jeanne

14:48:34 [Zakim]

jeanne, you wanted to discuss scheduling when Makoto is finished.

14:48:55 [ChrisLoiselle]

Jeanne: I want to apologize that we aren't able to discuss alt text changes on Tuesday of next week.

14:48:57 [ChrisLoiselle]

q?

14:49:09 [ChrisLoiselle]

Jeanne: it is still possible to get this into the next publication.

14:49:18 [ChrisLoiselle]

I think the decision tree is a great idea.

14:49:39 [ChrisLoiselle]

On redesign of outcomes , that is a great reference to work from.

14:50:19 [ChrisLoiselle]

As currently constructed, it could be in outcomes as it stands right now.

14:50:33 [ChrisLoiselle]

ShawnL: Also helps with ACT relationships

14:50:37 [ChrisLoiselle]

q?

14:50:48 [Lauriat]

Zakim, take up item 4

14:50:48 [Zakim]

agendum 4 -- Issues -- taken up [from jeanne]

14:51:35 [ChrisLoiselle]

Jeanne: Issues topic - JF talked to the fact that issues that we are closing should tie to updates to wcag 3 .

14:52:59 [ChrisLoiselle]

Jeanne: if you could email me with closed issues, that would be helpful. Also, I am asking for helpful on management of issues within Silver. Open to help on managing it within Github.

14:53:07 [ChrisLoiselle]

JF: What would task be exactly?

14:54:03 [ChrisLoiselle]

Jeanne: Identify issues that are ready to close . Responses are ready to show to working group and associate it with editors draft. Making a follow up note to understand there is a change that is ready to be looked at.

14:54:34 [ChrisLoiselle]

Janina: On conformance, I will help with those items. Will point to user generated and outcomes , etc.

14:54:48 [JF]

Q+

14:55:20 [ChrisLoiselle]

Jeanne: I.e. Yes, this is addressing this this issue , see comment number for detail and include it in draft possibly.

14:55:28 [ChrisLoiselle]

q?

14:55:36 [Lauriat]

ack JF

14:55:57 [ChrisLoiselle]

JF: I believe what we could through outstanding issues and then streamline them into buckets.

14:56:05 [ChrisLoiselle]

Jeanne: That is done already in a variety of ways.

14:57:02 [ChrisLoiselle]

JF: I don't want to leave this to one person. I think it is a useful . Can we talk to it offline ? I can help facilitate on specific tasks.

14:57:14 [ChrisLoiselle]

Jeanne: Yes, I will review concrete tasks and will follow up.

14:57:49 [ChrisLoiselle]

Jennifer S: I can help as well within GitHub in any way. I need a checklist of do this vs. non concrete action items.

14:57:54 [ChrisLoiselle]

Jeanne: I'll follow up.

14:57:58 [ChrisLoiselle]

q?

14:58:13 [Makoto]

present+

14:58:13 [ChrisLoiselle]

rrsagent , make minutes

14:58:18 [jeanne]

action: notes JF and JenniferS volunteered to help once I have a list of concrete tasks

14:59:02 [Lauriat]

Sayonara!

14:59:07 [ChrisLoiselle]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:59:07 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/08/20-silver-minutes.html ChrisLoiselle

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