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13:21:31 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/08/20-silver-irc
13:21:34 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:21:35 <Zakim> Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
13:22:00 <jeanne> present:
13:22:00 <jeanne> chair: Shawn, jeanne
13:22:00 <jeanne> present+
13:22:00 <jeanne> zakim, clear agenda
13:22:00 <Zakim> agenda cleared
13:22:01 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
13:22:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/08/20-silver-minutes.html jeanne
13:22:01 <jeanne> q?
13:22:06 <jeanne> q-
13:29:27 <jeanne> agenda+ TPAC
13:29:27 <jeanne> agenda+ Approach to Publishing WCAG 3 survey
13:29:27 <jeanne> agenda+ Alt Text update
13:29:27 <jeanne> agenda+ Issues
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13:52:53 <Lauriat> agenda?
13:53:01 <Lauriat> Present+
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14:00:29 <JF> agenda?
14:00:35 <JF> Present+
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14:01:23 <jenniferS> present+
14:01:29 <bruce_bailey> present+
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14:05:30 <ChrisLoiselle> scribe: ChrisLoiselle
14:05:44 <Lauriat> Zakim, take up item 1
14:05:44 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- TPAC -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:05:55 <Chuck> agenda?
14:06:04 <jeanne> zakim, take up item 1
14:06:04 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- TPAC -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:06:06 <jeanne> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/TPAC_2021_Meeting_Overview
14:06:34 <ChrisLoiselle> ShawnL: Talks to joint session targeting and outreach.
14:06:52 <ChrisLoiselle> ShawnL: Have we done any outreach to immersive captions or any other groups?
14:07:35 <ChrisLoiselle> Jeanne: I know COGA would like to talk to us,  clear words group is working with COGA. Not sure if other things are needed to discuss with COGA. Anyone else?
14:08:08 <ChrisLoiselle> ShawnL: I think it would be a good point to reach out to COGA to see where they are and talk to points they want to cover.
14:08:24 <ChrisLoiselle> ShawnL: Action item to follow up with Rain on COGA topics.
14:08:38 <ChrisLoiselle> Jeanne: Epub , APA is meeting with Epub and invites us to attend.
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14:09:09 <sajkaj> present+
14:10:05 <ChrisLoiselle> ShawnL: I know they have the Epub guidelines, not sure if they plan on rolling that entirely in.
14:10:07 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:10:31 <ChrisLoiselle> Janina: I don't think it is too early to cover these type of subjects or topics.
14:12:19 <ChrisLoiselle> Janina: I think it may be useful and talk to how much time we spend on topic.  There are a lot of registries, published in various places. W3 is not contemplating being a registry ...
14:12:44 <ChrisLoiselle> ... Talks to pronunciation, etc.
14:12:52 <ChrisLoiselle> Jeanne: This sounds specific
14:13:19 <ChrisLoiselle> Janina: Yes, it is . Silver perhaps is interested in registries portion but perhaps not pronunciation
14:13:44 <ChrisLoiselle> Jeanne: Who are the contacts?
14:14:25 <ChrisLoiselle> Janina: Charles and DeVonish.  If you wanted to write them and Cc me that would be great.. Deadline is late September . Benefit is to lock up early to get timeframes set.
14:14:52 <ChrisLoiselle> Jeanne: I will let him know .
14:15:28 <ChrisLoiselle> Janina: If they prefer, we can meet in a longer meeting if makes sense to APA, Epub , etc.
14:15:54 <ChrisLoiselle> Janina: EO and glossary WAI topic is also a topic of discussion.
14:16:02 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:16:07 <ChrisLoiselle> Jeanne: I put it on agenda for EO
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14:16:42 <ChrisLoiselle> Jeanne: We have three topics for APA, component libraries, third party and protocols.
14:17:15 <ChrisLoiselle> Janina: APA is expected to meet with Silver during TPAC during the two weeks, just not currently in the planning page.
14:17:44 <ChrisLoiselle> Jeanne: Is Suzanne on call? Topic related to immersive captions ...
14:18:01 <ChrisLoiselle> Jeanne: The XR group was working toward that but they aren't active .
14:18:13 <ChrisLoiselle> Janina: Is JoshO on call? We just publisehed.
14:18:35 <ChrisLoiselle> ShawnL: I think we should email them as they aren't on call.
14:18:36 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:19:02 <ChrisLoiselle> Jeanne: Do we have anything on internationalization ?
14:19:51 <ChrisLoiselle> Janina: We are hoping to resolve before TPAC.  It relates to personalization to a degree
14:20:10 <ChrisLoiselle> Jeanne: On browser testing rules, I think we should have a discussion with them.
14:20:12 <ChrisLoiselle> ?
14:20:17 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:20:23 <ChrisLoiselle> Jeanne: Is Wilco on call?
14:20:27 <ChrisLoiselle> ShawnL: No.
14:20:40 <ChrisLoiselle> Jeanne: Follow up with Wilco will be needed on browser testing.
14:22:02 <ChrisLoiselle> Jeanne: On breakout sessions, method template, on writing for wcag 3, one is an intro to wcag 3 and latest updates and a maturity model introduction is also a topic .
14:22:41 <ChrisLoiselle> Jeanne: Talks to bottom of page wiki page on reference points for TPAC, etc.
14:22:44 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:22:49 <Lauriat> Zakim, take up item 2
14:22:49 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Approach to Publishing WCAG 3 survey -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:22:56 <Lauriat> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/approach/
14:23:38 <ChrisLoiselle> ShawnL: Talks to survey on approach and process. We have conversation with chairs with what question 1 on survey outlines.
14:24:11 <ChrisLoiselle> Question 1 was around issues and proposed solutions
14:24:46 <ChrisLoiselle> So instead of quarterly public working drafts, we would do the work within editor's drafts
14:25:31 <sajkaj> q+
14:25:36 <ChrisLoiselle> ShawnL: We want to hear your feedback , i.e. agree or agree with feedback, or you can disagree , etc.
14:25:45 <ChrisLoiselle> Second question is other issues unaccounted for
14:25:47 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:26:25 <JF> ack s
14:26:37 <ChrisLoiselle> Janina:  The survey pretty well describes the difficulties we are coming across.
14:27:25 <sarahhorton> present+
14:27:47 <ChrisLoiselle> The changes are massive. I'm not sure the solution is good as is. It is trying to redefine the role of an editor's draft and how it currently functions. I think updating editor's drafts is a very good idea. Understanding working drafts are drafts
14:28:48 <JF> Q+ to note that there is a difference between an Editor Draft and a Heartbeat publication
14:28:48 <Chuck> q+
14:28:53 <ChrisLoiselle> We need to find a way to have those be acceptable on a more regular basis for working drafts.  Going to a new definition of what an editor's draft is would add more trouble than it solves across W3C
14:28:56 <ChrisLoiselle> Q?
14:29:00 <Lauriat> ack JF
14:29:00 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to note that there is a difference between an Editor Draft and a Heartbeat publication
14:29:04 <Lauriat> qv?
14:29:41 <jeanne> I want to note that heartbeats can be published everyday
14:30:02 <jeanne> q+
14:30:04 <Lauriat> ack Chuck
14:30:05 <ChrisLoiselle> JF: there is a difference between an editor's draft and heartbeat publication. Editor's draft could be updated daily, if applicable. Heartbeat is more hardened. Editor's are most current. When we had a different publishing system, they may have been more beneficial.
14:30:09 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:30:30 <JF> s/I want to note that heartbeats can be published everyday/I want to note that Editor's Drafts can be published everyday
14:31:05 <jeanne> Do not edit my comment, JF.  I meant what I said.
14:31:24 <ChrisLoiselle> Chuck: Conversation is on the next AGWG call, I think each person could add tweaks that we could add to or remove from the topic in general.  It is not that these were introduced recently , but they came to forefront last week.
14:31:29 <sajkaj> q+
14:31:35 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:31:41 <Lauriat> ack jeanne
14:32:33 <ChrisLoiselle> Jeanne: I disagree with JF. I think the W3C has made it easier to publish working drafts . We have the ability to publish a working draft. W3C has encouraged through their own tools to publish more often.
14:33:07 <ChrisLoiselle> AIRA in HTML has been publishing 4 to 6 a month. API , published 28 times. A lot of groups publish very often.
14:34:10 <Lauriat> qv?
14:34:13 <ChrisLoiselle> Jeanne: AC, Advisory Boards  , all want more frequent publications.  We can look at updating editors drafts but also do it with publications , doesn't have to be once a year. Not direction of modern W3C
14:34:32 <Lauriat> ack sajkaj
14:34:39 <ChrisLoiselle> Jeanne: I don't think we should stop frequent publishing.
14:35:51 <Chuck> q+ to ask Janina to share link to that process doc.
14:35:58 <ChrisLoiselle> Janina: I searched for the term in process and don't see Heartbeat. There is a role for updated working drafts . They may or may not be on a heartbeat cadence.
14:36:35 <ChrisLoiselle> Janina: We should also explore consensus and not unanimous agreement.
14:36:38 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:37:01 <Lauriat> q+ to reframe this discussion to help folks in this group understand the space so we can have this conversation on Tuesday
14:37:04 <JF> Respectfully: Revising a Working Draft A Working Group should publish a Working Draft to the W3C Technical Reports page when there have been significant changes to the previous published document that would benefit from review beyond the Working Group.  If 6 months elapse without significant changes to a specification, a Working Group should publish a revised Working Draft, whose status section should indicate reasons for the lack of change. (source: htt[CUT]
14:37:15 <ChrisLoiselle> What is behind it all, is what we want a working draft to show.
14:37:23 <Lauriat> ack Chuck
14:37:23 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to ask Janina to share link to that process doc.
14:37:23 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:37:31 <JF> source: https://www.w3.org/2020/Process-20200915/#revising-wd
14:37:41 <sajkaj> https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Process/Drafts/#registries
14:37:54 <ChrisLoiselle> Chuck: can you point to the process document?
14:38:53 <ChrisLoiselle> Jeanne: reads AWK's section 6.26 section.
14:39:02 <Lauriat> ack Lauriat
14:39:02 <Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to reframe this discussion to help folks in this group understand the space so we can have this conversation on Tuesday
14:39:07 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:39:59 <ChrisLoiselle> ShawnL: Can we timebox rest of conversation for 10 minutes as AGWG is talking to this on Tuesday.
14:40:15 <ChrisLoiselle> Is there anyone on call that has questions on what the problem is that we are trying to solve?
14:40:26 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:41:34 <ChrisLoiselle> ShawnL: Any item preventing anyone from responding to survey?
14:41:45 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:42:28 <ChrisLoiselle> Rachael: It indicates we are trying to work through the process and that an editor's note is not able to handle the issue in entirety.
14:42:28 <Lauriat> Bringing the survey link back, please fill it out for Tuesday's discussion! https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/approach/
14:42:31 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:43:08 <Lauriat> Zakim, take up next item
14:43:08 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- TPAC -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:43:15 <Lauriat> Zakim, take up item 3
14:43:15 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Alt Text update -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:43:19 <ChrisLoiselle> ShawnL: Two hour discussion with AGWG on Tuesday will review this very topic.
14:43:49 <Makoto> Images - WAI Tutorial https://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/images/
14:44:17 <ChrisLoiselle> Makota: On alt text update , we are done with phase 1 .  For the 4 types of images, we had methods in first public working draft. We reviewed WCAG 2.1 documents and added examples.
14:44:27 <Makoto> We updated these 4 methods  https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG3/2021/outcomes/text-alternative-available
14:44:34 <ChrisLoiselle> We now have updated version of methods (pastes link).
14:44:45 <ChrisLoiselle> We are done with the methods.
14:45:50 <Makoto> Alt Text Subgroup - Silver Wiki  https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Alt_Text_Subgroup
14:45:51 <ChrisLoiselle> We've also built techniques for these . We used Google docs for our work. I think Jeanne is working on providing these in HTML5 templates. I will update our subgroups wiki with these documents.
14:46:42 <ChrisLoiselle> In phase 2, we will add more examples and add, edit and modify to the future version of the working draft.
14:46:48 <jeanne> q+ to discuss scheduling when Makoto is finished.
14:47:27 <Makoto> An Alt Decision Tree https://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/images/decision-tree/
14:48:10 <ChrisLoiselle> The alt text guideline has seven methods on different types of images. It is not straightforward as to how to determine of which types of images . We used alt decision tree as a gateway of seven methods it would be helpful to use this , I'm not sure how to incorporate this into guideline structure of wcag 3
14:48:34 <Lauriat> ack jeanne
14:48:34 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to discuss scheduling when Makoto is finished.
14:48:55 <ChrisLoiselle> Jeanne: I want to apologize that we aren't able to discuss alt text changes on Tuesday of next week.
14:48:57 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:49:09 <ChrisLoiselle> Jeanne: it is still possible to get this into the next publication.
14:49:18 <ChrisLoiselle> I think the decision tree is a great idea.
14:49:39 <ChrisLoiselle> On redesign of outcomes , that is a great reference to work from.
14:50:19 <ChrisLoiselle> As currently constructed, it could be in outcomes as it stands right now.
14:50:33 <ChrisLoiselle> ShawnL: Also helps with ACT relationships
14:50:37 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:50:48 <Lauriat> Zakim, take up item 4
14:50:48 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Issues -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:51:35 <ChrisLoiselle> Jeanne: Issues topic - JF talked to the fact that issues that we are closing should tie to updates to wcag 3 .
14:52:59 <ChrisLoiselle> Jeanne: if you could email me with closed issues, that would be helpful. Also, I am asking for helpful on management of issues within Silver. Open to help on managing it within Github.
14:53:07 <ChrisLoiselle> JF: What would task be exactly?
14:54:03 <ChrisLoiselle> Jeanne: Identify issues that are ready to close . Responses are ready to show to working group and associate it with editors draft. Making a follow up note to understand there is a change that is ready to be looked at.
14:54:34 <ChrisLoiselle> Janina: On conformance, I will help with those items. Will point to user generated and outcomes , etc.
14:54:48 <JF> Q+
14:55:20 <ChrisLoiselle> Jeanne: I.e. Yes, this is addressing this this issue , see comment number for detail and include it in draft possibly.
14:55:28 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:55:36 <Lauriat> ack JF
14:55:57 <ChrisLoiselle> JF: I believe what we could through outstanding issues and then streamline them into buckets.
14:56:05 <ChrisLoiselle> Jeanne: That is done already in a variety of ways.
14:57:02 <ChrisLoiselle> JF: I don't want to leave this to one person. I think it is a useful . Can we talk to it offline ? I can help facilitate on specific tasks.
14:57:14 <ChrisLoiselle> Jeanne: Yes, I will review concrete tasks and will follow up.
14:57:49 <ChrisLoiselle> Jennifer S: I can help as well within GitHub in any way. I need a checklist of do this vs. non concrete action items.
14:57:54 <ChrisLoiselle> Jeanne: I'll follow up.
14:57:58 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:58:13 <Makoto> present+
14:58:13 <ChrisLoiselle> rrsagent , make minutes
14:58:18 <jeanne> action:  notes JF and JenniferS volunteered to help once I have a list of concrete tasks
14:59:02 <Lauriat> Sayonara!
14:59:07 <ChrisLoiselle> rrsagent, make minutes
14:59:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/08/20-silver-minutes.html ChrisLoiselle
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