IRC log of editing on 2021-08-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:59:30 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #editing
15:59:30 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/08/13-editing-irc
16:00:07 [Travis]
present+ Travis
16:00:13 [whsieh]
present+
16:00:15 [BoCupp]
present+ Bo
16:00:19 [comandeer]
present+
16:00:29 [whsieh]
is the link https://meet.google.com/wdp-xkma-taf?
16:00:39 [Travis]
no...
16:00:40 [Travis]
https://meet.google.com/pdx-dnmm-cen
16:01:15 [Travis]
Anyone want to scribe today?
16:01:59 [Travis]
agenda+ travis introductions
16:02:34 [johanneswilm]
Travis introduces himself. He is to replace Grisha for the time being.
16:02:49 [BoCupp]
agenda+ Virtual Keyboad API ED to WD? (https://w3c.github.io/editing/docs/virtualkeyboard/index.html)
16:03:57 [Travis]
agenda?
16:04:37 [Travis]
agenda- 1
16:04:45 [Travis]
agenda
16:04:48 [Travis]
agenda?
16:05:02 [Travis]
agenda+ review Agenda+ items on github
16:05:42 [Travis]
agenda+ keyboard api participation from MS
16:05:51 [snianu]
snianu has joined #editing
16:05:52 [GameMaker]
GameMaker has joined #editing
16:06:45 [Travis]
drop agenda 4
16:06:57 [Travis]
agenda+ clipboard-api participation from MS
16:07:00 [Travis]
agenda?
16:07:24 [Travis]
agenda+ What to include from input-events L2?
16:07:54 [Travis]
Any other agenda items from folks here in IRC?
16:07:56 [johanneswilm]
Bo: will get a PR ready for what part sof Input Events level 2 have to be marked optional
16:08:09 [GameMaker]
present+
16:08:13 [snianu]
present+
16:08:19 [johanneswilm]
present+
16:08:56 [johanneswilm]
Wenson: we are on board with svg as safe clipboard mimetype
16:08:56 [Travis]
agenda+ SVG clipboard topic
16:08:57 [alex_]
alex_ has joined #editing
16:09:09 [johanneswilm]
... but we might want some sanitization that we can discuss here
16:09:31 [Travis]
take up agenda 2
16:09:45 [Travis]
take up agendum 2
16:10:04 [johanneswilm]
Bo: virtual keyboard API - we have worked on it a while. have internal and external users. Is the group willing to move it to be a WD?
16:10:58 [Travis]
Note: not hearing opposition here on the call.
16:11:20 [Travis]
ACTION: BoCupp to send mail asking the same.
16:12:16 [Travis]
a?
16:12:19 [Travis]
agenda?
16:12:25 [Travis]
agenda- 2
16:12:37 [Travis]
take up agenda 5
16:12:44 [Travis]
take up agenda 3
16:13:04 [Travis]
https://github.com/w3c/editing/labels/Agenda%2B
16:13:12 [Travis]
Will be looking over these from top to bottom.
16:13:26 [Travis]
First issue: https://github.com/w3c/editing/issues/327
16:14:01 [Travis]
Anyone have a preferred day/time to meet at [virtual] TPAC?
16:14:19 [Travis]
Dates are 25 - 29 Oct.
16:15:37 [Travis]
Suggest that we keep same relative time and day?
16:15:49 [Travis]
Any other day we might also like to meet (for schedule flexibility)?
16:16:32 [Travis]
johanneswilm: think asking for 2-3 hours might be good?
16:17:37 [Travis]
https://github.com/w3c/editing/pull/265
16:18:12 [Travis]
johanneswilm: first we need an update from Bo/Grisha...
16:18:24 [Travis]
.. they worked on a very long PR. Can we get this merged?
16:18:38 [Travis]
.. there was a question in the issue asking about moving into the HTML spec.
16:18:56 [Travis]
.. then Doemenic had a discussion about using the terminology of execCommand.
16:19:05 [Travis]
.. I personally don't think we need to do it.
16:19:20 [Travis]
.. if HTML thinks it's central and should use that naming scheme..
16:19:31 [Travis]
.. would be good to have common understanding of execCommand.
16:20:25 [johanneswilm]
Bo: it stalled because noone is going to jump on delivering this
16:20:26 [Travis]
BoCupp: to complete the PR... I think it stalled because may not be likely that anyone is going to be working on this?
16:21:03 [johanneswilm]
it became deprioritized
16:21:22 [johanneswilm]
I would rather wok on those things we want to ship
16:21:32 [johanneswilm]
like virtualkeyboard api
16:22:14 [johanneswilm]
wenson: we will nor prioritize
16:22:39 [Travis]
johanneswilm: this started as a request on the JS side... editors unhappy showing actions that won't be taken.
16:23:17 [Travis]
.. whenever someone wants to know the current state, folks have to read through the spec + PR. Can we merge as an intermediate step.
16:23:38 [Travis]
.. would it be easier to merge and then still not worry about putting further time into it.
16:24:19 [Travis]
I think that's a sensible request.
16:24:31 [Travis]
johanneswilm: there may be a few issues...
16:24:58 [Travis]
BoCupp: looks like there's a reduction in scope... dom token list was dropped.
16:25:32 [Travis]
johanneswilm: it was asked to include, but not done. But.. not a problem. We can file an issue to do it.
16:26:33 [Travis]
ACTION: johanneswilm to file issues that remain from this PR, and then merge the commit as is.
16:26:47 [Travis]
https://github.com/w3c/editing/pull/260
16:27:43 [Travis]
johanneswilm: question to whsieh? CAn we move undo manager api?
16:27:58 [Travis]
whsieh: Will talk to tess.
16:28:03 [Travis]
is it in scope of our charter?
16:28:22 [Travis]
johanneswilm: I think so, but whereever it ends up, we probably shouldn't link to a person account.
16:28:59 [Travis]
wondering if webkit/explainers would work?
16:29:20 [Travis]
BoCupp: is undo manager a concept you'd like to invest to move forward?
16:29:29 [Travis]
whsieh: momentum has stopped, but we still see value in it.
16:29:43 [Travis]
.. good use cases :) I'd say "far on the horizon"
16:31:11 [Travis]
johanneswilm: there are buttons for undo/redo, and authors want to disable them. authors are trying to figure out how to integrate their own undo/redo.
16:31:26 [Travis]
.. so how do we do this? Add events? Have an Undo Manager? What's the larger direction?
16:32:23 [Travis]
whsieh: I don't think having undo events is mutually exclusive to undo manager.
16:33:46 [Travis]
ACTION: whsieh to move undomanager to webkit/explainers, then update the issue so we can get a better link.
16:34:24 [Travis]
https://github.com/w3c/editing/pull/244
16:35:02 [Travis]
johanneswilm: people are still interested in fixing/changing execcommand.
16:35:13 [Travis]
.. there's a new command "useCSS"
16:35:22 [Travis]
.. implemented in Safari 10 years ago.
16:35:29 [Travis]
.. not present in all the browsers.
16:35:35 [Travis]
.. so technically shouldn't be deprecated.
16:36:28 [Travis]
.. spec should say "we recommend "styleCSS" but "useCSS" shouldn't be marked as deprecated.
16:37:31 [Travis]
any objections to undeprecating?
16:37:48 [johanneswilm]
bo: don't feel know enough to comment
16:37:57 [Travis]
BoCupp: don't know enough to comment--but seems reasonable if everyone has implemented it.
16:38:10 [Travis]
johanneswilm: there is a full-replacement for it "styleCSS".
16:39:12 [Travis]
not hearing objections to this undeprecation
16:41:46 [Travis]
ACTION: Ask @saschanaz to files bugs on implementations that may be firing deprecation warnings, and merge the PR.
16:43:01 [Travis]
https://github.com/w3c/input-events/labels/Agenda
16:43:18 [Travis]
https://github.com/w3c/input-events/pull/118
16:43:45 [Travis]
johanneswilm: We need to figure out if we can merge these specs.
16:46:05 [Travis]
johanneswilm: we could just auto-publish both and then think about merging later?
16:46:16 [Travis]
johanneswilm: we can defer this for another month.
16:46:54 [Travis]
https://github.com/w3c/input-events/issues/117
16:47:42 [Travis]
johanneswilm: We decided that we don't need a new input type, but we should agree on which type to use.
16:47:55 [Travis]
.. then we got a question back: should there be a paste event?
16:48:10 [Travis]
Does anyone implement this with a paste event?
16:48:27 [Travis]
johanneswilm: new spec, implementers may do this if we spec it.
16:48:34 [Travis]
whsieh: similar to emojis.
16:48:46 [Travis]
.. we treat it like a paste, and our implementation does fire 'paste'
16:48:53 [Travis]
.. it's for compatibility.
16:49:25 [Travis]
johanneswilm: any argument against having a paste event?
16:50:31 [Travis]
BoCupp: is there a spec change here?
16:50:37 [Travis]
.. where would this be documented?
16:50:54 [Travis]
.. or is this just advice from the WG on how to maximize compatibility?
16:51:05 [Travis]
johanneswilm: we could be a non-normative note on how to handle paste.
16:51:28 [Travis]
.. in the note we could explain to fire it... you'd write the event order.
16:51:41 [Travis]
.. e.g., when does input event fire in relation to the paste event?
16:51:58 [Travis]
The firing of 'paste' is written somewhere, right?
16:52:06 [Travis]
BoCupp: I think it would be a good addition.
16:52:12 [Travis]
.. also fine with a note.
16:52:20 [Travis]
agenda?
16:52:28 [Travis]
agenda- 3
16:53:31 [Travis]
ACTION: include a note in the spec (non-normative) about firing paste event as well in this scenario.
16:54:37 [Travis]
https://github.com/w3c/input-events/issues/115
16:54:43 [Travis]
johanneswilm: let's just remove the agenda label.
16:55:16 [Travis]
agenda?
16:55:37 [Travis]
take up agenda 5
16:55:46 [Travis]
BoCupp: anupam is working on pickling API.
16:56:01 [Travis]
.. questions on security aspects, sanitization.
16:56:18 [Travis]
.. our plan is to make updates to clipboard-api spec (before shipping anything)
16:56:22 [Travis]
.. we're working on it.
16:56:25 [Travis]
.. :)
16:56:39 [Travis]
johanneswilm: can we update the editor (it's grisha)
16:57:06 [Travis]
BoCupp: who are we asking? I nominate Anupam!
16:58:12 [Travis]
ACTION: we'll take the nomination for Anupam back and try to make the switch.
16:58:18 [Travis]
agenda?
16:58:38 [Travis]
agenda- 5
16:58:39 [Travis]
agenda- 6
16:58:46 [Travis]
take up agenda 7
16:59:34 [Travis]
whsieh: was a blog post recently about adding image/SVG+XML... to the web-safe list.
16:59:50 [Travis]
.. one of the challenges is dealing with sanitization.
17:00:09 [Travis]
.. SVG may use XML parser (vs. HTML parser)
17:00:21 [Travis]
.. sanitization may involve more than adding this to the list of types.
17:00:59 [Travis]
.. if we're not careful could lead to XSS..?
17:01:11 [Travis]
johanneswilm: does the sanitization need to be sanitized?
17:01:32 [johanneswilm]
* standardized
17:01:54 [Travis]
whsieh: in blog post (link) there was a note about not wanting to standardize the sanitization algo.
17:02:07 [whsieh]
link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Rx7gi01avpRRNYKSpp3U4WQdjery0H0IkX2XxDtfZ8I/edit
17:03:01 [Travis]
BoCupp: what is the outcome of "adding to web-safe list" does it join a list of things UAs must support?
17:04:07 [Travis]
.. we had feedback from Moz in anotehr issue. Putting a mime-type on a list isn't sufficient...
17:04:21 [Travis]
.. need to know the format when "html is on the clipboard"
17:04:33 [Travis]
.. there are some interop issues.
17:04:45 [Travis]
.. Moz feedback was to add that level of detail (to get interop)
17:05:09 [Travis]
.. there are variations by platform, yet we'd like a platform neutral.
17:05:17 [Travis]
.. I'm very supportive of providing the details.
17:05:37 [Travis]
.. a little concerned about adding another one with no good docs.
17:05:41 [Travis]
whsieh: good poitn.
17:06:17 [Travis]
BoCupp: proposal: maybe have whsieh become a co-editor of clipboard-api to help iron out some of the details?
17:06:28 [Travis]
.. (also helps improve clipboard-api spec).
17:07:36 [Travis]
RRSAgent: please make the minutes
17:07:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/08/13-editing-minutes.html Travis
17:07:45 [Travis]
agenda?
17:07:48 [Travis]
agenda- 7
17:08:00 [Travis]
RRSAgent: make minutes public
17:08:00 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', Travis. Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:08:45 [Travis]
RRSAgent, make logs world-visible