14:01:12 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wot-arch
14:01:12 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/07/22-wot-arch-irc
14:01:38 <kaz> meeting: WoT Architecture
14:02:54 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Michael_Lagally, Ben_Francis
14:03:03 <kaz> present+ Michael_McCool
14:03:38 <kaz> present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi
14:03:49 <McCool> McCool has joined #wot-arch
14:04:24 <kaz> regrets+ Sebastian
14:04:30 <kaz> present+ Michael_Koster
14:06:25 <cris_> cris_ has joined #wot-arch
14:06:34 <kaz> scribenick: cris_
14:06:56 <ryuichi_> ryuichi_ has joined #wot-arch
14:06:56 <cris_> ml: just one hour time for this call
14:07:17 <cris_> ... focus on the high priority issues on the first hour
14:07:31 <cris_> ... maybe mccool can take over after
14:07:37 <cris_> mm: ok
14:07:47 <kaz> present+ Ryuichi_Matsukura
14:08:03 <Mizushima> Mizushima has joined #wot-arch
14:08:23 <cris_> mm: review f2f minutes
14:08:37 <cris_> ml: any concerns on the previous minutes?
14:08:43 <cris_> ml: ok approved
14:08:56 <cris_> topic: Pull Requests
14:09:04 <kaz> s/f2f minutes/f2f minutes deferred to the latter part of the call/
14:09:22 <kaz> i/just one hour/topic: Preliminary/
14:09:27 <cris_> subtopic: issue 89
14:09:35 <kaz> i/review f2f/topic: Minutes/
14:09:43 <kaz> present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima
14:09:44 <cris_> ml: any other people had time to review it?
14:10:05 <kaz> i|any concerns|-> https://www.w3.org/2021/07/15-wot-arch-minutes.html July-15|
14:10:17 <cris_> mm: I did have look on other design patterns, I want to propose alternative solutions.
14:10:56 <mlagally_> mlagally_ has joined #wot-arch
14:11:01 <cris_> ben: this is a draft for a protocol bindings for actions
14:11:14 <cris_> ... I did not specify udpateaction operation in this draft
14:11:29 <cris_> ... two different action types: sync and asyc
14:12:05 <cris_> ... open issue: should we include input data in the response? now it is not mandatory in the PR
14:12:59 <cris_> ... where to include the created URL? header or body? now it is in the body
14:13:32 <kaz> s/udpateaction/update action/
14:13:35 <cris_> ... there's no example for output data but it is planned
14:13:48 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
14:13:53 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:13:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/07/22-wot-arch-minutes.html kaz
14:14:19 <kaz> chair: Lagally
14:14:31 <cris_> mm: is there any difference between actions that "create resources" rather than just an async action?
14:15:04 <cris_> ... we discussed a lot about good design patterns also in discovery
14:15:24 <kaz> i|any other people|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/pull/89 PR 89 - Define protocol binding for actions - closes|
14:15:37 <cris_> ... I read API design patterns book, there is a pointer to google.aip.dev/151
14:15:57 <cris_> ... there is a description for long running operations, maybe can inspire us
14:16:00 <kaz> q?
14:16:02 <kaz> q+
14:16:06 <McCool> https://google.aip.dev/151
14:16:13 <cris_> ... actual link above
14:16:31 <cris_> ben: interesting do you think it can improve the current status?
14:16:45 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:16:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/07/22-wot-arch-minutes.html kaz
14:16:46 <cris_> mm: I think so, mostly it is just a checklist that we could follow
14:16:51 <kaz> s/issue 89/PR 89/
14:16:53 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:16:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/07/22-wot-arch-minutes.html kaz
14:17:00 <cris_> ... we can do a sanity check
14:18:04 <kaz> i|any other people|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/issues/81 Issue 81 - Action semantics|
14:18:06 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:18:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/07/22-wot-arch-minutes.html kaz
14:18:26 <cris_> ... there are also collections
14:19:09 <cris_> ml: thank you, I suggest to review the current PRs with this new information in mind
14:19:11 <kaz> q?
14:19:29 <McCool> https://www.manning.com/books/api-design-patterns
14:19:54 <McCool> q+
14:20:06 <cris_> kaz: I am ok starting simple and doing further reviews keeping in mind what mccool mentioned. We have to keep in mind Echonet
14:20:49 <cris_> mm: I don't really agree with it, profile is for greenfield devices we have to strive to a good api rather
14:20:52 <mjk> mjk has joined #wot-arch
14:20:55 <mjk> q?
14:21:04 <mjk> q+
14:21:29 <kaz> s/starting/starting with/
14:21:33 <cris_> kaz: at some point we have to think about specific bindings from an actual IoT platform
14:21:59 <cris_> mm: looking at existing standards is good to create a list of requirements
14:22:40 <cris_> ml: I too think we don't have to strictly follow a specific standard but get inspiration from them
14:22:48 <cris_> ... let's look at what we have
14:23:03 <cris_> mm: I agree, we just need some sanity checks
14:23:07 <mlagally_> q?
14:23:07 <cris_> q?
14:23:11 <kaz> s/at some point/in that case, we should think about two levels, (1) this binding for wot-profile for small devices (we need to think about device level standards) and (2) at some point/
14:23:13 <McCool> ack mccool
14:23:13 <kaz> ack k
14:23:50 <cris_> mjk: we can collaborate with the Thing-To-Thing group, we are working on the same pattern.
14:23:56 <mjk> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-ace-aif-03.html#table-2
14:24:18 <kaz> s/from an actual IoT platform/with the other IoT standards./
14:24:22 <kaz> q?
14:24:24 <kaz> ack mjk
14:24:30 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:24:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/07/22-wot-arch-minutes.html kaz
14:24:43 <cris_> ml: what do you mean with collaborate?
14:24:58 <cris_> mjk: maybe invite in the call or review PRs
14:25:03 <kaz> s/mean with/mean by/
14:27:43 <cris_> mjk: we support getting a status and delete
14:28:40 <mjk> ack m
14:28:49 <cris_> ... sometimes created resources have different owners: coffe process and confee machine
14:29:26 <cris_> ml: we are using http specific features in Ben's proposal
14:29:29 <McCool> q+
14:30:16 <cris_> mm: yeah agree, it is a requirement question: do we want to extend to support to other protocol later?
14:30:27 <cris_> ml: I do prefer to keep our solution open
14:31:31 <cris_> mjk: we can allow blended solutions. e.g. put location in the header if user want
14:31:43 <cris_> mm: so do we merge it now?
14:31:57 <cris_> mjk: keep for review for one more week
14:32:10 <cris_> s/mjk/ml/
14:32:25 <cris_> mm: we have one more week than vacation hit
14:32:45 <kaz> q+
14:32:46 <cris_> ml: let's get every comment on the PR before next meeting
14:32:51 <kaz> ack mc
14:33:38 <kaz> qq+ ben
14:33:42 <kaz> ack b
14:33:42 <Zakim> ben, you wanted to react to McCool
14:33:43 <cris_> ben: don't focus too much on protocol extensibility. This is good design for HTTP
14:34:00 <cris_> ... for example MQTT design would be completely different.
14:34:45 <cris_> ml: can we use url in the body?
14:35:02 <cris_> ben: it is a convention to put it in the headers
14:35:38 <McCool> q+
14:35:41 <cris_> q?
14:35:52 <kaz> q- later
14:35:55 <cris_> ml: why do we have two action status?
14:36:20 <cris_> ben: one is the status and the other is a link to the status
14:37:05 <cris_> mm: one is the payload and the other is the payload
14:37:19 <cris_> ml: why don't put the url in the payload
14:37:27 <kaz> s/one is the payload/one is the header/
14:38:04 <cris_> mm: as Ben said this would have another schema
14:39:46 <kaz> q?
14:39:48 <kaz> ack mc
14:40:32 <McCool> q+
14:40:58 <cris_> kaz: I can ask Matsuda-san about how they handle with this specific situation. What is the main reason to have sync or async?
14:41:22 <cris_> ben: the main practical reason is that some actions may exceed the usual HTTP timeout
14:41:47 <kaz> kaz: @@
14:42:02 <cris_> kaz: I suggest to design a specific use-case for this description
14:42:14 <kaz> s/kaz: @@//
14:42:19 <kaz> ack k
14:42:22 <kaz> ack mc
14:42:24 <cris_> mm: the terminology is a little bit confusing
14:42:54 <cris_> ben: I agree
14:42:56 <kaz> s/this description/this description when we ask external SDOs for review./
14:43:18 <cris_> mm: long-running and quick actions?
14:43:47 <cris_> ben: mmm not convincing cause you can have sync long running actions too.
14:43:47 <kaz> q+ mjk
14:43:50 <kaz> ack mjk
14:44:24 <kaz> s/long running/long-running/
14:44:25 <cris_> mm: ok for keeping it
14:44:39 <cris_> ml: maybe it requires one or more lines as introductions
14:45:16 <cris_> q?
14:45:17 <McCool> q?
14:45:51 <cris_> subtopic: PR 78
14:46:00 <cris_> ml: this is an old PR
14:46:12 <cris_> ben: I rebase it today, it is blocking
14:46:21 <kaz> i|this is|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/pull/78 PR 78 - Restructure WoT Core Profile section|
14:46:28 <cris_> ml: I have some problems with the current changes
14:46:48 <cris_> ... it is a little bit "ostile" cause is deleting a lot of text
14:47:10 <cris_> ben: it is the result of a previous discussion that we had.
14:47:16 <McCool> q+
14:47:32 <cris_> ... I see removing as a good thing if it is simplify the current situation
14:47:49 <kaz> q+
14:47:54 <cris_> mc: I suggest not to block Ben, the text is there in the repo
14:47:55 <kaz> ack mc
14:48:42 <cris_> ml: the removed part has significant content that it is useful for other profiles
14:49:39 <cris_> ben: I don't indiscriminaly delete it, but it seems that it was a little bit out of scope
14:50:11 <kaz> q?
14:50:18 <cris_> ... which part of the text do you feel to keep because it contributes to interoperability.
14:51:02 <cris_> ml: do you want to remote core data model?
14:51:15 <cris_> ben: yes and the external TD representations
14:53:01 <cris_> ml: we should keep core Data model because we have to keep the separation between data model and protocol bindings
14:53:40 <cris_> ben: I agree with keep data model separate from the binding
14:53:50 <cris_> ... but I would put this on Thing Description spec
14:54:02 <kaz> q?
14:54:03 <McCool> q+
14:54:54 <cris_> ben: which of these constraints do you feel apply to all the bindings but not to all the devices
14:55:15 <cris_> mm: it might be sense to label sections with their goal
14:55:34 <cris_> ... title and description mandatory is human-readable
14:56:02 <cris_> ... we want to encourage good design in profile
14:56:14 <cris_> ... do we need a best practice section?
14:56:26 <cris_> ... it is different than targeting interoperability
14:57:07 <cris_> ml: we can have it, but making a normative statement to stress the importance of our goals. (e.g., human readable)
14:57:13 <kaz> q?
14:57:15 <kaz> ack mc
14:57:32 <cris_> q+
14:58:25 <cris_> kaz: my suggestion is to not remove the content but maybe move in the appendix section.
14:59:13 <cris_> ml: why don't we just remove human-readability constraints? so maybe just change the PR to be more fine-grained
14:59:54 <cris_> ml: it is a long discussion, maybe defer to the next call
14:59:54 <benfrancis> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/issues/73
15:00:00 <benfrancis> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/issues/73#issuecomment-805010541
15:00:15 <cris_> ben: we had a similar discussion, above links to that
15:00:46 <cris_> ... we haven't talk about added sections, the PR is more about restructuring
15:01:49 <kaz> s/but maybe move in the appendix section./but maybe once move to the appendix section, and continue the discussion about which content to be included in the Profile spec. If the data model definition here need within the Profile spec, we can pick up the necessary part back to the main body. On the other hand, if part of the description to be moved to the Thing Description spec, we should do so./
15:01:50 <cris_> mm: maybe having a feedback on the sections that we should keep it would help future discussions
15:02:14 <cris_> ml: let's look into that together
15:02:58 <kaz> present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch
15:03:03 <cris_> ml have to leave, mm takes over
15:03:06 <kaz> q?
15:03:08 <kaz> ack k
15:03:21 <kaz> ack c
15:03:29 <kaz> (Lagally leaves)
15:03:58 <kaz> s/leaves/leaves and McCool takes over the Chair's role/
15:04:04 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:04:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/07/22-wot-arch-minutes.html kaz
15:04:52 <cris_> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1195
15:05:52 <cris_> topic: f2f minutes
15:06:23 <cris_> ben: how do you feel about for a protocol binding for SSE?
15:06:32 <kaz> i/f2f/Cristiano: (mentions wot-thing-description Issue 1195 above)
15:07:00 <cris_> cris: node-wot has a draft implement of it, so let's do it
15:07:27 <cris_> mjk: fair choice
15:07:38 <kaz> s/topic: f2f minutes//
15:07:53 <kaz> i/how do you/subtopic: PR 92/
15:07:55 <cris_> mm: no direct experience with it, but it is a w3c spec so it good.
15:08:12 <cris_> ben: thank you
15:08:17 <kaz> i|how do you|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/pull/92 PR 92 - Define protocol binding for events - closes #42|
15:08:42 <cris_> subtopic: 602
15:09:11 <cris_> mm: refactored building blocks section by adding discovery as a top level
15:09:14 <sebastian> sebastian has joined #wot-arch
15:09:23 <kaz> i/602/topic: Architecture PRs/
15:10:18 <kaz> i/subtopic: 602/subtopic: PR 602/
15:10:36 <kaz> i|refactored|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/pull/602 PR 602 - Refactor TD/Discovery Material in Section 8|
15:11:36 <cris_> mm: any comments on the PR?
15:11:38 <kaz> -> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wot-architecture/602/af1a8df...mmccool:088b9c6.html#sec-discovery 8.5 WoT Discovery
15:11:52 <cris_> ... I think we can move on and merge it
15:12:07 <cris_> ... updates can be done in the future
15:12:42 <cris_> subtopic: PR 601
15:12:58 <cris_> mm: PR removes the device classes
15:13:16 <kaz> i|removes|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/pull/601 PR 601 - Fixup Device Classes|
15:13:51 <cris_> ... it mentions also about gateways and hubs
15:14:11 <cris_> ... and fixes minor formatting problems
15:14:16 <kaz> i|removes|-> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wot-architecture/601/af1a8df...mmccool:a5dfece.html#device-categoriesdevices 4. Device Categories (which is removed)|
15:14:42 <cris_> ... we need better category names, nodeMCU is a product
15:16:08 <kaz> s/removes/adds/
15:16:18 <kaz> s/which is removed/which is added/
15:16:33 <cris_> mm: any objection ?
15:16:43 <cris_> ... ok merged
15:17:31 <kaz> q+
15:17:55 <cris_> subtopic: 600
15:17:58 <kaz> q-
15:18:12 <kaz> s/600/PR 604/
15:18:35 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/pull/604 PR 604 - WIP: Provides text for TM
15:18:40 <cris_> mm: it can cause problems with Sebastian's PR. I can merge it now and provide further work later
15:19:00 <cris_> seb: you can actually merge mine too, it is marked as wip but I can work on it later
15:19:42 <kaz> s/PR 604/PR 600 and 604/
15:20:11 <kaz> i|PR 604|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/pull/600 PR 600 - WIP: Add Description and Model Section|
15:20:20 <kaz> s/it can/PR 600 can/
15:20:33 <kaz> s/mine too/PR 604 too/
15:23:45 <cris_> mm: ok merged 600
15:24:11 <cris_> ... and Sebastian's PR
15:24:20 <kaz> s/ok merged 600/(reviews the changes in PR 600 and PR 604)/
15:24:44 <kaz> s/and Sebastian's PR/let's merge PR 604 first, and will work on PR 600/
15:25:00 <kaz> (PR 604 merged)
15:25:21 <kaz> subtopic: PR 605
15:25:31 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/pull/605 PR 605 - Add observeallproperties, unobserveallproperties, subscribeallevents and unsubscribeallevents
15:25:37 <cris_> cris: this cames from TD
15:25:44 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:25:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/07/22-wot-arch-minutes.html kaz
15:25:59 <cris_> ben: yeah, we added subscribeallevents and related operations.
15:26:14 <kaz> s/topic: Pull Requests/topic: Profile PRs/
15:26:16 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:26:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/07/22-wot-arch-minutes.html kaz
15:26:50 <cris_> ... but the definitions are in the architecture
15:26:59 <cris_> ... so I updated it
15:26:59 <kaz> s/subtopic: 602//
15:27:01 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:27:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/07/22-wot-arch-minutes.html kaz
15:27:12 <cris_> ... we should move this table in td spec
15:27:33 <cris_> mm: right, let's merge it and then add an issue for moving it
15:27:35 <kaz> s/cames/came/
15:28:57 <cris_> mm: ok for merging it
15:29:41 <cris_> mm creates the issue about moving operations to TD spec
15:33:26 <McCool> https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/issues/606
15:34:19 <cris_> topic: f2f minutes
15:34:30 <sebastian> sorry, I have to go.
15:34:30 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/2021/06/21-30-wot-vf2f-minutes.html vF2f minutes
15:34:48 <kaz> s/sorry, I have to go.//
15:36:19 <cris_> mm: we discussed PRs
15:36:45 <cris_> ... canonicalization (but it is now outdated)
15:37:10 <cris_> ... duplicate text
15:37:19 <cris_> kaz: they are two proposal
15:37:28 <cris_> mm: they look the same
15:37:54 <cris_> kaz removing the second entry
15:38:19 <cris_> s/removing/removed/
15:39:02 <cris_> mm: spotted another typo
15:39:28 <cris_> ... also there is a fixup entry that did not work
15:40:10 <cris_> ... no other comments?
15:40:21 <cris_> kaz fixed the issues above
15:41:07 <cris_> mm: so day 3 is reviewed
15:41:49 <cris_> mm: two typos in day 2
15:44:14 <cris_> ... there's a random character
15:46:26 <cris_> ... missing a capital T
15:46:50 <cris_> ... async https://www.asyncapi.com/
15:47:05 <cris_> ... day 5
15:48:26 <cris_> ... keep in mind that the chapter number in the profile spec are now changed
15:49:51 <cris_> ... no any other issues
15:50:09 <cris_> ... ok everything is done
15:50:31 <kaz> yay!
15:50:31 <cris_> ... AOB?
15:50:40 <cris_> :)
15:50:48 <kaz> [adjourned]
15:50:54 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:50:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/07/22-wot-arch-minutes.html kaz
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