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12:01:31 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Platform Architectures Working Group Teleconference
12:01:31 <trackbot> Date: 22 July 2021
12:01:39 <Judy> Judy has joined #apa
12:02:31 <Leticia> Leticia has joined #apa
12:02:39 <Leticia> present+
12:03:01 <Joshue108> present+
12:03:12 <shadi> present+
12:03:19 <janina> present+
12:03:22 <Joshue108> scribe: Joshue108
12:03:25 <jasonjgw> present+
12:03:32 <Joshue108> regrets+ Becky, Scott
12:03:58 <Joshue108> agenda?
12:04:18 <Joshue108> SAZ: Thanks e'one, we had intro meeting two weeks ago
12:04:35 <Joshue108> Looking at research and organising symposia etc
12:04:45 <CarlosD> CarlosD has joined #apa
12:04:46 <Joshue108> Looking at more indepth analysis
12:04:52 <Joshue108> Interest was strong.
12:04:55 <CarlosD> present+
12:05:12 <Joshue108> To make use of interest and expertise
12:05:42 <Joshue108> The question is how to use the opportunities of the symposia, round table discussions etc
12:06:12 <Joshue108> This is my understanding - the question of if we use this for specific topics, or do it more broadly
12:06:22 <Joshue108> to frame questions or look at bigger gaps etc
12:06:38 <Joshue108> Sorta meta research, or looking into what is needed
12:06:50 <Joshue108> To allow for follow on work and contribs
12:07:02 <Joshue108> We can also do a combination of that
12:07:16 <Joshue108> First two could be broad, and then more specific
12:07:28 <Joshue108> or create an exemplar
12:07:39 <Joshue108> SAZ: I'd like to get a sense today of what we should do
12:07:56 <Joshue108> And what the first symposium should be
12:08:33 <Joshue108> There has also been work done on keywords in conference proceeding etc
12:09:03 <Joshue108> SAZ: We can also look at what was not looked at
12:09:48 <CarlosD> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1uLkgAvLGFr3UApAaOtrG4guPZRo64JqK
12:10:11 <Joshue108> Carlos and Leticia from FCID
12:10:42 <Joshue108> JS: Should we start with something specific and end up with more meta topics?
12:10:45 <Joshue108> SAZ: We could
12:10:57 <Joshue108> CD: We could combine them - do them other way around
12:11:10 <Joshue108> Could be done at the same time.
12:11:18 <Joshue108> We have possibilities
12:11:36 <Joshue108> JS: I have a suggestion..
12:11:48 <Joshue108> We could frame this both ways...
12:12:03 <Joshue108> The most immediate issue in APA, is from Google and Vispero
12:12:34 <Joshue108> Both stating a problem.. relating to pronunciation
12:13:07 <Joshue108> How do we design this in a way that works via an AAM or something else into UI A11y or iAccessible2, various APIs
12:13:16 <Joshue108> The spec will fail if we can't solve this
12:13:57 <Joshue108> s/AAM/AMM
12:14:17 <Joshue108> JS: There are also XR meetings relating to AOM, that we've been invited to.
12:14:38 <Joshue108> People are talking about APIs, their limitations, what do they need to do etc?
12:14:49 <Joshue108> Could be framed as a research question.
12:15:04 <Joshue108> JW: Jason and Josh
12:15:32 <Joshue108> JW: System level interfaces is a good topic
12:15:33 <Joshue108> q+
12:15:56 <Joshue108> JW: Based on recent comments in APA work, this could be turning into a more urgent issue
12:16:14 <Joshue108> JS: It is for pronunciation - but it is in general an emergent issue
12:16:33 <shadi> ack josh
12:16:42 <janina> Joshue108: Agrees on framing
12:16:57 <shadi> JoC: short-term need may be driver to look into this issue
12:17:07 <janina> Joshue108: Suggests the short term need provides a way to possibly structure a broader conversation around these issues
12:17:26 <janina> Joshue108: we do have a broader sense that aapi issues are arising
12:17:57 <janina> Joshue108: also notes that groups outside W3C are also looking at this
12:18:21 <Joshue108> JB: This direction is good
12:18:34 <Joshue108> SAZ: Other reactions?
12:18:54 <Joshue108> JW: If you want a topic then this is a candidate/
12:19:20 <Joshue108> CD: My reaction is that this fits quite well, in terms of stuff in our keyword search
12:19:44 <Joshue108> If the research community is not aware of this, then we can do that.
12:20:06 <Joshue108> CD: I do have some project concerns, deep analysis may be hard if there are no publications
12:20:37 <Joshue108> JB: We ran into issues in the past with lighter weight approaches?
12:20:55 <Joshue108> SAZ: We have no required format - can be as we want.
12:21:19 <Joshue108> There is the issue that with the less publications there are, it can be tricky
12:21:51 <Joshue108> CD: There are enough people here to come up with good ideas
12:22:11 <Joshue108> We would need to connect this with what the community is doing.
12:22:13 <Joshue108> q+
12:22:45 <Joshue108> CD: I wonder if the first symposium should be helping to build bridges
12:22:47 <Joshue108> ack me
12:23:23 <janina> Joshue108: Should look for greater coop between W3C and other communities; this is an opportunity for that
12:24:13 <janina> Joshue108: Especially when they propose tech solutions in areas we care about, such as XR, WoT, etc; where it's hard to find a locus of control
12:24:49 <janina> Joshue108: Not sure we should go all the way into an area where there's no research--but maybe we do?
12:25:01 <Joshue108> SAZ: I'd like to switch a little..
12:25:17 <Joshue108> Can we derive some criteria for topic selection?
12:25:22 <Judy> q+
12:25:34 <Joshue108> There may be urgent topics, that can help an existing issue
12:25:46 <Joshue108> another angle is impact in accessibility
12:26:07 <Judy> q-
12:26:10 <Joshue108> There could be criteria so we say - as Jason indicated there could be other topics
12:26:25 <jasonjgw> q+
12:26:27 <Joshue108> We dont need to set those now, but we can have candidates.
12:26:35 <Joshue108> Across certain criteria
12:26:45 <Joshue108> This gives a paper trail etc
12:27:24 <Joshue108> ack jas
12:27:45 <janina> q+
12:27:49 <Joshue108> JW: Seems that topics that affect multiple aspects of a11y would be useful
12:28:22 <Joshue108> There are both sides about prior publications, or could mean if there are few, then the reserach community is not looking at an area.
12:28:43 <Joshue108> I don't think just having recent publications should be a deciding factor
12:28:51 <Joshue108> We can discuss short and long term
12:28:57 <Joshue108> We should have envisioned outcomes also
12:29:22 <Joshue108> What is the benefit of looking at x or y?
12:30:06 <Joshue108> SAZ: Thats helpful
12:30:37 <Joshue108> I agree but are recent publications a sign of something?
12:30:46 <Joshue108> Could show gaps etc
12:31:03 <Joshue108> We should be thinking about this either way w other criteria
12:31:45 <Joshue108> JW: It connects with my larger concern around architecural issues around how a11y is implemented and in general dont attract the research community in a substantial way
12:31:55 <Joshue108> Focus on empirical HCI stuff
12:32:13 <Joshue108> If we could stimulate the architectural discussions that would be good.
12:32:14 <shadi> q+
12:32:20 <Joshue108> ack jan
12:32:45 <Joshue108> JS: I'd like to see TTS engines work in a multi-lingual manner
12:32:58 <Joshue108> There is no consistency today, across browsers etc
12:33:15 <Judy> q+
12:33:43 <Joshue108> <Gives overview of various library content and browser experiments and lack of language switching and lack of support for phonems>
12:34:27 <Joshue108> JS: The push for the standard is coming out of necessity - people are not looking at the standards for pronunciation and they fail
12:34:36 <Joshue108> We can do better - no one is going there.
12:34:45 <Joshue108> may not be traditional a11y research
12:35:29 <shadi> ack me
12:36:01 <Joshue108> SAZ: My question.. Is it more impactful for a11y, to look at this problem, the lack of support etc..
12:36:06 <Judy> q+ to make a case for a higher-level approach
12:36:29 <Joshue108> Or is it better to shed light in the research community and the fact they are not looking at it.
12:37:03 <Joshue108> We do need to look at the reviewers and what they want etc
12:37:12 <Joshue108> We will need to justify it
12:37:46 <Joshue108> I'm just questioning - its interesting to hear the research community is not looking at this.
12:38:01 <Joshue108> JS: Google may not be doing this as they want market share etc
12:38:37 <Joshue108> This may not be via co-operation, and the development of standards
12:38:55 <Joshue108> But we can point to easy things that will help for the general population etc
12:39:16 <Joshue108> I'm hoping the EU may care more - with language diversity
12:39:21 <Joshue108> ack jud
12:39:21 <Zakim> Judy, you wanted to make a case for a higher-level approach
12:39:40 <Joshue108> JB: Reflects on the first conversation/meeting...
12:40:43 <Joshue108> We can have framing conversations to raise visibility
12:41:16 <Joshue108> What about doing a workshop on a topic that frames a space?
12:41:32 <Joshue108> Like AI etc and how we could plug that into testing and remediation?
12:41:56 <Joshue108> To try to structure the space, so we could work on these
12:42:01 <jasonjgw> q+
12:42:10 <Joshue108> q+
12:42:25 <Joshue108> ack jas
12:42:50 <Joshue108> JW: Seems some topic that would engage the architectural issues of a11y, and intergration with APIs etc
12:43:05 <Joshue108> That would satisfy the criteria of earlier suggestions
12:43:16 <Joshue108> Seems like a candidate
12:43:45 <Joshue108> Regarding machine learning etc on the web.. we can see that on the authoring and testing side, also meets that criteria
12:43:51 <janina> Agree we have two good candidates
12:44:09 <Joshue108> Promising on initial analysis
12:44:33 <Joshue108> Framing it on a more generic level could be appropriate
12:44:40 <Joshue108> Important hard problems
12:44:45 <Joshue108> ack me
12:45:02 <CarlosD> q+
12:45:47 <janina> Joshue108: agree with jason; have preference for arch at the moment; like the notion of doing the hard work identifying gaps in but also pulling players together who can meet the needs
12:46:28 <janina> Joshue108: Suggest we need to lead in this space
12:46:42 <janina> Joshue108: AI/ML is less of a preference; but do think these are related
12:46:59 <janina> Joshue108: believe pronunciation is a massive issue
12:47:20 <janina> josh add xr and we have yet more
12:47:29 <Joshue108> SAZ: +1 to Josh, we have more and more pieces
12:47:41 <Joshue108> CD: Just want to echo that this is an interesting conversation..
12:48:06 <Joshue108> Most research in a11y is done by HCI related groups
12:48:19 <Joshue108> This is an opportunity also to bring other groups in..
12:48:36 <Joshue108> Solve the hard problems that we should be working on.
12:49:04 <Joshue108> CD: Could pronunction be framed in the language domain?
12:49:11 <Joshue108> And Natural Language Processing?
12:49:34 <Joshue108> This is a good topic to justify to the commission, many EU languages
12:49:35 <Judy> +1 to broadening the framing of the pronunciation to a broader language issue
12:49:42 <Joshue108> SAZ: Yes, there are interesting intersections
12:50:03 <Joshue108> I'd like us to have some tangible outcomes.
12:50:23 <Joshue108> SAZ: Would like to hear from Michael also.
12:50:48 <Joshue108> SAZ: Here is a concrete idea, Jason referred to criteria but we need to agree and document those.
12:50:57 <Joshue108> Various topics etc, all important.
12:51:14 <Joshue108> Its important to see that there are gaps in various communities etc
12:51:46 <Joshue108> So i propose for our first topic, we ask what are the gaps, topics that the W3C feel are urgent?
12:51:59 <Joshue108> Can they described in a set of criteria that we agree on?
12:52:26 <Joshue108> Our first symposium could be around good practices in a11y research, and what the community needs?
12:52:37 <Joshue108> Could set out our stall in broader circles.
12:53:10 <Joshue108> Set parameters in the field, foundation and we can pick specific things
12:53:22 <Joshue108> AI I still imagine as a vertical
12:53:37 <Joshue108> Could be a model that others can follow.
12:53:47 <Joshue108> How does this sound?
12:54:13 <janina> q+
12:54:25 <shadi> ack carlos
12:54:30 <Joshue108> ack jan
12:54:54 <Joshue108> JS: What comes to mind, while it has value, who would come to that kind of symposium?
12:55:02 <Joshue108> It would be hard to get industry.
12:55:18 <Joshue108> We've never gotten AT vendors to participate at W3C.
12:55:56 <Joshue108> SAZ: Good point but devils advocate, wouldn't it be great to address them, we could build a network.
12:56:27 <Joshue108> JW: There could be value in a wider discussion - in what are the hard problems.
12:56:36 <Joshue108> q+
12:57:19 <Joshue108> JW: Could be good - when thinking of hard issues that need to solved. Would need to be clear.
12:57:38 <Joshue108> We'd need strong underlying criteria
12:57:41 <Joshue108> ack me
12:58:25 <janina> Joshue108: not thrilled about too general a framing
12:58:55 <janina> Joshue108: having spent last two years on emerging tech am concerned that we know a lot of what needs focus that isn't being covered
12:59:14 <janina> Joshue108: concerned to resource more known issues
12:59:30 <Joshue108> CD: I would need to think about this more.
13:00:01 <Joshue108> I would be concerned that we just have three. There is a value bringing these challenges to the research community
13:00:35 <Joshue108> I see a place where various stakeholders could present their issues and challenges to the research community
13:00:45 <Joshue108> So think we already have good topics.
13:01:12 <Joshue108> But there could be value in the more general approach but could we achieve more value going direct to the topics that we floated.
13:01:23 <Joshue108> SAZ: My worry is that we jump into firefighting.
13:01:42 <Joshue108> Josh is saying we know what some of the issues are but I don't think we have fully formulated this
13:01:55 <Joshue108> Could be really good for the community based on data
13:02:14 <Joshue108> SAZ: Am thinking about road mapping.
13:02:32 <Joshue108> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:02:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/07/22-apa-minutes.html Joshue108
14:10:24 <stevelee> stevelee has joined #apa
14:18:43 <janina> janina has changed the topic to: APA Teleconference; Wednesday 28 July at 1600Z
14:59:38 <Zakim> Zakim has left #apa