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14:01:52 <kaz> meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF
14:02:03 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Cristiano_Aguzzi
14:02:26 <kaz> present+ Daniel_Peintner
14:03:06 <kaz> present+ Ege_Korkan, Sebastian_Kaebisch
14:03:21 <cris> cris has joined #wot-td
14:03:21 <kaz> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#July_14.2C_2021
14:03:38 <kaz> present+ Ben_Francis
14:03:56 <sebastian> sebastian has joined #wot-td
14:04:01 <dape> dape has joined #wot-td
14:06:02 <kaz> present+ Michael_McCool
14:06:27 <McCool> McCool has joined #wot-td
14:07:42 <kaz> present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima
14:07:47 <dape> scribe: dape
14:09:04 <dape> SK: Agenda bashing
14:09:16 <dape> -> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#Agenda
14:10:16 <dape> TOPIC: Minutes approval
14:10:23 <dape> -> https://www.w3.org/2021/06/16-wot-td-minutes.html
14:10:32 <kaz> present+ Michael_Koster
14:11:03 <dape> SK: talked about publication plans
14:11:20 <kaz> s/SK: Agenda/topic: Agenda/
14:11:26 <dape> ... VF2F TD topics
14:11:33 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
14:11:37 <dape> ... looked into PRs
14:11:37 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:11:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/07/14-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:11:39 <kaz> q?
14:11:46 <dape> ... merged some PRs
14:12:48 <dape> MMC: some security PRs should be ready by next week (expect review from Oliver)
14:14:38 <kaz> present+ Ryuichi_Matsukura
14:16:23 <dape> SK: RDF PR might be closed... need to check with Victor
14:17:13 <dape> SK: looked at issues
14:19:10 <dape> q+
14:20:06 <dape> SK: AOB about Ege / Henry  and JSON schema definitions
14:22:32 <dape> Ege: had meeting with Henry..
14:22:42 <dape> SK: Objections to approve minutes?
14:23:06 <dape> -> none  -> minutes approved
14:23:29 <dape> SUBTOPIC: F2F minutes
14:23:48 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/2021/06/21-30-wot-vf2f-minutes.html#day6 Day 6
14:24:18 <dape> SK: talked about round tripping
14:24:38 <dape> ... Victor could fix all issues (RDF <-> JSON-TD)
14:25:03 <dape> ... gave overview about 1.1 features / updates
14:25:11 <dape> ... talked about thing models
14:25:46 <dape> ... use-case from Eclipse Ditto
14:26:15 <dape> ... McCool gave presentation about validations
14:26:25 <dape> ... talked about action model
14:26:34 <dape> ... sync vs async
14:27:04 <dape> SK: objections to merge?
14:27:15 <dape>  -> none -> minutes approved
14:27:30 <dape> TOPIC: WoT Bindings
14:27:41 <dape> Ege: main point is Modbus binding
14:27:41 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/109
14:27:47 <dape> ... Cristiano created PR
14:27:59 <dape> ... binding is reviewed also by Sebastian
14:28:04 <dape> ... looks good
14:28:22 <dape> ... talked with Cristiano about schema validation
14:28:36 <dape> ... concern for other protocols as well
14:28:46 <dape> ... make sure to use the right terms
14:28:54 <dape> ... TD is flexible w.t.r.
14:29:05 <dape> ... Cristiano provided schema file
14:29:12 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/109/files?file-filters%5B%5D=.html&file-filters%5B%5D=.json&file-filters%5B%5D=.md#diff-4f12601df63ec09f14c2309b51f3a27ea60aa7a01d87718d46b9e09172464709
14:30:02 <dape> CA: >shows rendered version<
14:30:32 <dape> ... improvements from last time is introduction of schema
14:30:42 <dape> ... we have SHACL
14:30:47 <dape> ... we have JSON schema file
14:31:16 <dape> ... made some assumptions
14:31:27 <dape> ... TD needs to use same prefix
14:31:50 <dape> ... otherwise we need pre processing step
14:32:11 <dape> ... JSON schema checks context url and prefix
14:32:59 <dape> SK: We could check with Victor about other solutions
14:33:14 <dape> ... prefix usually can be used randomly
14:33:32 <McCool> (I'm back)
14:33:37 <dape> CA: For SHACL file there is a specific place
14:33:46 <dape> ... for JSON schema this is not the case
14:34:28 <dape> SK: wonder about canonicalization and how it is done there
14:34:43 <dape> MMC: 1. keep prefix or 2. substitute prefixes
14:34:54 <dape> ... 3. create new names for all Urls
14:35:30 <dape> ... other concern I had was with having multiple schemas
14:35:50 <dape> ... how to do proper validation
14:36:14 <dape> CA: JSON schema needs to be replicated
14:36:26 <dape> ... in form level "own" schema is added
14:36:46 <dape> MMC: What about more extensions
14:37:09 <dape> ... we look for a wrapper schema
14:37:22 <dape> CA: Having one schema makes validation simple
14:37:48 <dape> ... saw other use-cases on the Web doing the same
14:38:49 <dape> MMC: using canonical form for validation?
14:38:58 <dape> ... fills in default values
14:39:20 <dape> ... validation should be done before canonicalization
14:39:53 <dape> ... validation process could be some specific pre-processing
14:40:20 <dape> SK: Maybe we can talk with JSON schema people
14:40:50 <dape> ... suggest we keep the current proposal
14:40:59 <dape> ... keeping prefix "modbus"
14:41:07 <dape> ... should be made clear in text
14:41:22 <dape> MMC: template would make this behavior clear
14:41:57 <dape> CA: having {{modbus}} template cannot be used as it is
14:42:29 <dape> Ege: did some tests with JSON schema
14:42:43 <dape> ... having Modbus and non-Modbus seems to fail
14:43:01 <dape> ... "modv" is also used in some examples
14:43:13 <dape> CA: will take a look, thanks
14:43:47 <dape> ... suggest to merge the PR soon.. and move on from there
14:44:17 <dape> q?
14:44:20 <dape> ack dape
14:44:39 <dape> CA: added small readme also
14:44:40 <dape> q+
14:44:55 <dape> SK: support merging
14:45:48 <dape> DP: noted that github "preview" link does not work any longer
14:45:55 <dape> ack dape
14:46:40 <cris> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/109
14:47:16 <dape> CA: Yes, would be good if it can handle files other than index.html
14:50:03 <dape> Kaz: Let's merge and see whether it can be resolved
14:50:21 <dape> ... comment: the header should not link directly
14:50:29 <dape> CA: temporary situation
14:50:38 <dape> Ege: OK with merging also
14:50:58 <dape> ... no more concerns mentioned
14:51:17 <dape> ... will do the merge
14:51:27 <dape> SK: use same pattern for other bindings also?
14:51:29 <dape> Ege: Yes
14:51:39 <dape> TOPIC: PRs Overview
14:51:58 <dape> SUBTOPIC: Add subscribeallevents and unsubscribeallevents operations - closes #1082
14:52:05 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1191
14:52:37 <dape> Ben: helps getting WebThings platform to be compliant
14:52:46 <dape> ... observing in one operation
14:53:41 <dape> ... a bit unclear what has to be modified manually.. and what is auto-generated
14:53:50 <dape> ... I think I got it right in the end
14:54:02 <dape> SK: looks good to me
14:54:47 <dape> Ben: updates for architecture are to be followed
14:54:53 <cris> +1 for merging :)
14:54:56 <dape> SK: Any comments?
14:55:13 <dape> ... looks we can merge
14:55:36 <dape> ... thank you Ben
14:55:59 <dape> SUBTOPIC: correct <span> element for ComboSecurity assertion and add unique id #1184
14:56:04 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1184
14:56:11 <dape> SK: seems to be a typo fix
14:56:33 <dape> Ege: yes, span vs scan
14:57:04 <kaz> q+
14:57:44 <dape> SK: Fady is not yet an official W3C member
14:58:04 <dape> ... we work on fixing the situation
14:58:30 <dape> Kaz: Do we want to wait or continue.. marking as non-substantial
14:58:55 <dape> ... given this is just a typo fix merging seems ok
14:59:11 <dape> SK: merging ...
14:59:38 <dape> SUBTOPIC: fix: replace "name" with "title" in TM example #1175
14:59:42 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1175
15:00:05 <dape> SK: fix is okay
15:00:16 <dape> ... issue that it is changed in index.html only
15:00:59 <dape> Kaz: editorial fix again
15:02:11 <kaz> s/again/again,  but we need to fix the index.template.html as well. so would suggest you create another PR to fix the index.template.html (and index.html as the result of the tooling)/
15:02:34 <dape> SK: will let Jan know that both files have to be updated
15:03:18 <dape> SUBTOPIC: TD Signatures #1151
15:03:22 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1151
15:03:33 <dape> MMC: Oliver will take a look
15:03:42 <dape> ... still some things to do
15:04:03 <dape> ... using "Signature" term caused conflicts
15:04:21 <dape> ... terminology vs vocabulary
15:06:16 <dape> ... issue in Section 5.2
15:06:47 <dape> q?
15:06:53 <kaz> q-
15:06:59 <dape> ... will create issue about that
15:07:19 <dape> ... once we get feedback from Oliver the rest should be rather minor
15:07:41 <dape> SK: will also ping Oliver
15:08:21 <dape> SUBTOPIC: Other PRs
15:08:35 <dape> SK: other PRs are about auto-updating and such
15:09:02 <dape> ... changing package versions
15:09:37 <dape> MMC: should test these changes before merging
15:09:44 <dape> SK: Daniel will have a look
15:10:15 <dape> SUBTOPIC: WIP: swap securtiy and securityDefinition in context file
15:10:19 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/937
15:10:24 <dape> SK: should check with Victor
15:10:34 <dape> MMC: Yes, I think this should be fixed by other PRs
15:10:50 <dape> ... but let's ask Victor
15:11:13 <dape> TOPIC: Issues
15:11:27 <dape> SUBTOPIC: Describing initial connection #878
15:11:30 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/878
15:11:39 <McCool> q+
15:11:41 <dape> SK: Old issue
15:12:00 <dape> ... metadata about initial connection
15:12:12 <dape> ... subprotocol et cetera
15:12:52 <dape> ... WebSocket, MQTT, ... mention the endpoint ... no more special information on interaction level
15:13:22 <dape> ... idea: using top-level information
15:13:37 <dape> ... example from Ben by means of WebThing
15:13:58 <dape> ... no need to repeat the same information over and over again
15:14:12 <dape> ... we have "base" but we might need more complex structure
15:14:41 <dape> ... introduce new term "bases" ..
15:14:59 <dape> ... define endpoints and refer to it on interaction level
15:15:14 <dape> ... another proposal from Ben .. using global form
15:15:31 <dape> ... more opinions / solutions
15:15:44 <dape> MMC: 2 issues come to my mind
15:15:48 <dape> ... what about security
15:15:59 <dape> ... initial security bootstrapping
15:16:32 <dape> SK: forms can contain security
15:16:52 <dape> MMC: Yes, but we might need to override it
15:17:13 <dape> ... first getting thing link
15:17:22 <dape> ... afterwards the full TD
15:17:56 <dape> ... anyhow, security should be considered for these examples
15:18:20 <dape> Ben: i don't think we have security bootstrapping issue
15:18:30 <dape> ... multiple bases is orthogonal
15:18:56 <dape> ... this is more about having a persisting connection
15:19:34 <dape> ... in case of WebSocket and subprotocol it should know when to use it and to setup just one connection
15:19:50 <dape> CA: I reviewed the proposal
15:19:56 <dape> ... none is solving all problems
15:20:08 <dape> ... moreover, backward compatibility is also an issue
15:20:23 <dape> ... shift some features to 2.90
15:20:33 <dape> s/2.90/2.0
15:20:35 <McCool> q?
15:20:37 <McCool> ack m
15:21:03 <dape> ... otherwise go on with Bens proposal that does not breaking changes
15:21:19 <dape> SK: backward compatibility is a real issue. right
15:22:28 <dape> ... ignoring is ok... but interoperability is not working
15:22:41 <dape> Ege: we have 2 things
15:22:50 <dape> ... base
15:22:56 <dape> ... and initial connection
15:22:57 <McCool> q+
15:23:25 <dape> MMC: what about using action for onboarding
15:23:39 <dape> ... can be used by "older" implementations
15:24:06 <dape> Ege: How to know that one actions depends on another action
15:24:22 <dape> MMC: needs to be labelled
15:24:45 <dape> Ege: node-wot for example would not keep connection
15:25:01 <dape> ... no good solution for old consumers
15:25:19 <dape> MMC: Do we properly support MQTT in 1.0 ?
15:25:43 <dape> ... if not, no need to further tackle this
15:27:14 <dape> Ben: Initial problem: never really defined properly... everyone doing it in its own way
15:27:23 <dape> ... hence no backwards compatibility
15:27:27 <dape> MMC: Agree
15:27:52 <dape> Ege: minimal change ... old consumer should not fail
15:28:04 <dape> .. eg. uses bases and not base
15:28:37 <dape> CA: I was thinking more about syntax
15:28:55 <dape> ... forms at root level seems less intrusive
15:29:06 <dape> Ege: does not solve multiple base
15:29:18 <dape> CA: Yes, should be post-poned to 2.0
15:29:49 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1192
15:30:13 <dape> Ege: Bug in current editors draft (see link above)?
15:30:42 <dape> Ben: what does "with default" mean
15:30:54 <dape> Ege: if nothing is defined, default kicks in
15:31:35 <dape> SK: I was thinking about "initconnection" op value
15:32:24 <dape> Ege: consequence would be to check first about "initconnection"
15:32:36 <dape> ... mixes concepts
15:33:26 <dape> CA: href required by TD .. but not by WebSocket
15:33:34 <dape> Ege: Yes, having empty string
15:34:09 <dape> Ben: Yes, forms is mandatory.. not needed by WebSocket only
15:34:36 <dape> SK: Another path could be saying we need to post-pone till 2.0
15:34:46 <dape> .. or form needs to be present for now
15:35:35 <dape> Ben: my goal is to make WebThings compliant
15:35:49 <dape> ... option 1: using link
15:36:03 <dape> ... option 2: use bug with empty forms
15:37:15 <dape> CA: should first talk how to handle the bug
15:37:37 <dape> MMC: like the suggestion to have a new op (like proposed by Sebastian)
15:37:53 <dape> Ben: in the case of WebThing... the op is "all"
15:38:31 <dape> ... single websocket connection
15:38:41 <dape> Ege: kind of a mis-use of semantics
15:38:48 <dape> .. why not listing them all
15:39:13 <benfrancis> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1070
15:39:14 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1070
15:39:34 <kaz> s|https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1070||
15:39:42 <dape> Ben: created issue, see link above
15:40:06 <dape> SK: wonder why it closed?
15:40:21 <dape> Ben: I did close it.. assuming op can be blank
15:40:40 <dape> MMC: "all" is bit weird
15:40:51 <dape> .... maybe you just want to do some
15:41:16 <dape> ... still like op "open" or so
15:41:34 <dape> Ege: How to know when to do this form
15:42:05 <dape> CA: once it is there.. every affordance should use it
15:42:18 <dape> MMC: same protocol
15:43:01 <dape> ... using same connection
15:43:50 <dape> CA: WebThing has just top-level form...
15:44:00 <dape> MMC: how to distinguish href?
15:44:06 <dape> Ben: are the same
15:45:28 <dape> ... pubsub in WebThings is not yet fully supported
15:45:38 <dape> ... looking for simplest solution
15:46:15 <dape> MMC: having top level form looks like simplest solution
15:47:11 <dape> Ben: if we had op "open" and forms in each interaction. Does this work for MQTT?
15:47:23 <dape> Ege: makes sense
15:47:56 <dape> q+
15:48:20 <dape> MMC: does prefix part indicate broker?
15:48:23 <dape> Ege: Yes
15:48:25 <dape> ack McCool
15:49:10 <McCool> q+
15:49:45 <dape> Ege: annoying problem. mqtt://localhost:1883/myThings/temp
15:50:55 <dape> ... in form in property myThings/temp it is not set whether to use with or without slash
15:52:45 <dape> MMC: using fragment identifier may help
15:53:00 <dape> Ege: might work
15:54:17 <dape> .... in MQTT # is special... like wildcard
15:54:22 <dape> ... should use $
15:54:40 <dape> MMC: MQTT never sees the pound sign (#)
15:54:49 <kaz> s/.... in/... in/
15:54:58 <kaz> s/# is/"#" is/
15:55:20 <kaz> s/should use $/should use "$" instead/
15:56:16 <dape> SK: Suggest getting back to global connection information
15:56:27 <dape> ... does new op type work
15:56:41 <dape> MMC: Looks like
15:57:34 <dape> DP: wonder whether we need the counterpart "close" to
15:57:43 <dape> MMC: Suggest to wait for use-case
15:58:00 <kaz> s/" to/" too/
15:58:19 <dape> ... or call it "initialized" to avoid questions
15:59:29 <McCool> s/initialized/initialize/
15:59:59 <McCool> (another option would be "connect" for the global op)
16:00:28 <dape> Ben/Ege: >discussions about WebThings and base<
16:01:05 <dape> Ben: not sure about the problem we are solving
16:01:31 <dape> MK: WebThing still needs selector
16:01:35 <cris> q?
16:01:41 <dape> ack dape
16:02:08 <dape> MMC: Form is required .. but for example form can be inferred.. also in ECHONET
16:02:57 <dape> CA: problem we solve: put form there for WebSocket
16:04:04 <dape> Ben: for http and WS we do not have a problem
16:04:22 <dape> SK: suggest to continue the discussion in issue
16:04:33 <dape> ... root form looks promising
16:04:42 <McCool> (sorry, another meeting, need to drop)
16:05:49 <kaz> [adjourned]
16:05:53 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
16:06:01 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:06:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/07/14-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
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