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15:54:39 <jgraham> Meeting: WebDriver-BiDi
15:54:44 <jgraham> Chair: AutomatedTester
15:54:55 <jgraham> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2021-07-BiDi#Agenda
15:55:09 <jgraham> ScribeNick: AutomatedTester
15:55:19 <jgraham> RRSAgent: Make minutes v2
15:55:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/07/14-webdriver-minutes.html jgraham
16:00:47 <jimevans> jimevans has joined #webdriver
16:01:44 <AutomatedTester> present+
16:01:58 <whimboo> present+
16:02:07 <jgraham> present+
16:02:13 <Honza> Honza has joined #webdriver
16:02:37 <jimevans> present+
16:02:46 <foolip> present+
16:02:46 <Honza> present+
16:02:54 <brwalder> present+
16:04:27 <sadym> present+
16:04:42 <AutomatedTester> topic: Navigation status update
16:05:14 <drousso> drousso has joined #webdriver
16:05:32 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: this is an FYI
16:05:33 <drousso> present+
16:05:47 <AutomatedTester> ... the initial patches have landed in webdriver and html spec
16:05:59 <AutomatedTester> ... one change that occured during code review
16:06:13 <AutomatedTester> ... if you abort a navigation then there is a specific event for that
16:06:24 <AutomatedTester> ... before it was treated an error
16:06:47 <foolip> The HTML side of this can be seen mostly in https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#navigate, search for "WebDriver BiDi" and references to https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-document-navigation-id
16:06:52 <AutomatedTester> ... From that I am currently rebasing the `reload` command
16:07:08 <AutomatedTester> ... for `force reloading` I am doing a lot of hand waving
16:07:38 <AutomatedTester> ... for `traversing the history` that requires a change to the http version
16:08:13 <AutomatedTester> ... we need to make sure that the relevant events, like `pageShow` etc are sent
16:08:43 <AutomatedTester> ... if there are concerns, please let me know or raise issues otherwise we will see about merging
16:08:47 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:08:50 <jgraham> s/http version/html spec/
16:09:02 <jgraham> q+ foolip
16:09:06 <jgraham> ack foolip
16:09:22 <AutomatedTester> foolip: traversing history is nack and forward?
16:09:32 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: yes, that is correct
16:09:37 <AutomatedTester> s/nack/back/
16:10:08 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: in a pervious meeting we said that we were going to allow people to move via a delta
16:10:29 <AutomatedTester> ... so it's slightly different but aligns well with other automation frameworks
16:11:00 <AutomatedTester> ... it's not how CDP works but since the clients are doing this it feels like we should follow them
16:11:05 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:11:44 <AutomatedTester> topic: WebDriver BiDi documentation on MDN
16:11:52 <AutomatedTester> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1720275
16:12:01 <AutomatedTester> https://github.com/mdn/content/issues/4721
16:12:59 <AutomatedTester> whimboo: normally we speak about the spec in this meeting, however I would like to bring up how we are going to communicate with the browser
16:13:23 <AutomatedTester> ... historically we had some docs on webdriver http
16:13:46 <AutomatedTester> ... so I would like to propose that we keep this up to date
16:14:10 <AutomatedTester> ... historically, MDN used to be a wiki but now this is all done via github using MD
16:14:40 <foolip> This is https://github.com/mdn/browser-compat-data
16:14:46 <AutomatedTester> ... and it would also good to keep track of what features are in which browser
16:14:58 <AutomatedTester> ... this is in the MDN BCD repository
16:15:02 <foolip> There is actually some data for WebDriver there: https://github.com/mdn/browser-compat-data/tree/main/webdriver/commands
16:15:12 <foolip> q+
16:15:42 <AutomatedTester> ... I have linked the meta bug on Mozilla Bugzilla so that we can see what is happening
16:15:46 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:16:04 <AutomatedTester> foolip: I am looking at the MDN content issue
16:16:20 <AutomatedTester> ... you talked about webdriver bidi or generally for all webdriver ?
16:16:38 <AutomatedTester> whimboo: I think let's focus on webdriver bidi to start and then we can back fill
16:16:57 <AutomatedTester> foolip: there are 2 things here:
16:17:20 <AutomatedTester> ... 1) details of what is doing.
16:17:41 <AutomatedTester> ... 2) for web devs...
16:18:10 <AutomatedTester> ...1) we need to make sure that we hit the minimum bar of shipping
16:18:39 <AutomatedTester> ... and for 2) I don't think webdevs would care since it's not a public API. Am I correct?
16:18:41 <foolip> I guess this the same thing that I wonder about in https://github.com/mdn/content/issues/4721#issuecomment-844227457 I see now
16:19:39 <jgraham> q+
16:19:39 <AutomatedTester> whimboo: not sure how many peopl.e would benefit from this? For target audience, we wouldn't be aiming for webdev, it's for client devs
16:19:51 <AutomatedTester> ... the folks at Selelenium are able to do this quickly
16:19:55 <foolip> q+
16:20:08 <AutomatedTester> ... but outside of them I don't think there are many or who they might be
16:20:09 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:20:20 <AutomatedTester> ack foolip
16:20:27 <AutomatedTester> q+ foolip
16:20:33 <AutomatedTester> ack jgraham
16:21:05 <foolip> 17 million
16:21:17 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: Yes, this is only for client developers and that there are probably 100 of them compared to web developers
16:21:56 <AutomatedTester> ... but there is a spec and we need to think about
16:22:22 <AutomatedTester> ... and the spec has a lot more detail than the previous spec or cdp viewer
16:22:59 <AutomatedTester> ... one approach could be to have no normative sections that generate
16:23:07 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:23:16 <AutomatedTester> ack foolip
16:23:33 <AutomatedTester> foolip: even if the audience is narrow it could still be useful
16:23:49 <jgraham> s/no normative/non-normative/
16:23:56 <AutomatedTester> ... we just need to be approach how we are going to review it
16:24:02 <foolip> https://github.com/openwebdocs/project/issues/42
16:24:04 <jgraham> RRSAgent: make minutes v2
16:24:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/07/14-webdriver-minutes.html jgraham
16:24:32 <AutomatedTester> ... and another way is prioritising it via a companies ttech writers or via open web docs
16:24:43 <AutomatedTester> ... I have linked to q3 planning
16:25:30 <AutomatedTester> ... q3 is the calendar
16:25:37 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:26:14 <AutomatedTester> Topic: Side effects of navigator.webdriver
16:26:29 <AutomatedTester> whimboo: THis is an issue that came up in a few places
16:26:39 <AutomatedTester> ... I follow in a few places
16:27:26 <AutomatedTester> ... in Firefox 88 we made a change that stopped people turning off navigator
16:27:56 <AutomatedTester> ... especially folks doing it
16:29:10 <AutomatedTester> ... `navigator.webdriver` is in the spec to allow websites to handle instances when this causes problems
16:29:11 <AutomatedTester> see https://www.dropbox.com/sh/2fzqorqhviocerx/AAAApaT_H-pEkM0Rg7D8-utMa?dl=0
16:29:34 <AutomatedTester> ... i've seen that web pages stop loading
16:30:11 <AutomatedTester> ... there are people getting around with webextensions
16:30:47 <AutomatedTester> ... if there are logins, then websites never allow the login page to load using redirects
16:31:21 <AutomatedTester> ... do we know if puppeteer, etc have the same issue
16:31:27 <whimboo> https://github.com/microsoft/playwright-python/issues/527#issuecomment-785155678
16:32:12 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:33:43 <jgraham> q+
16:36:12 <AutomatedTester> automatedtester: I believe chrome does allow it to be turned off via a command line flag. It was added at the request of amazon and gmail to stop spamming and people breaching T&Cs.
16:36:36 <jimevans> q+
16:36:40 <AutomatedTester> ... I think we should ask the folks from playwright and other to move to us rather than allow them to help breach T&Cs
16:36:48 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:38:04 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I had a look at Chromium source, by default when you set the remote debug port then it sets the `navigator.webdriver`... so puppeteeer is the same
16:38:24 <AutomatedTester> ... I think the agreement that we are not going to change this behaviour
16:38:43 <AutomatedTester> ... if people are motivated enough they can get around that
16:39:09 <AutomatedTester> ... do we want to make sure that feature is unforgeable?
16:39:10 <foolip> q+
16:39:17 <AutomatedTester> ack jgraham
16:39:34 <foolip> Chromium briefly used [LegacyUnforgeable] here: https://chromium-review.googlesource.com/c/chromium/src/+/2556519
16:40:13 <AutomatedTester> ... on the cookie issue, that is a real issue and that is fixed in bidi
16:40:21 <AutomatedTester> ... and I think is unrelated
16:40:51 <AutomatedTester> ack jimevans
16:41:22 <AutomatedTester> jimevans: as another data point, there are many commercial sites that work very hard to block automation against the site
16:41:39 <foolip> Also, Puppeteer will be default have `navigator.webdriver` be true. I found https://github.com/berstend/puppeteer-extra/tree/master/packages/puppeteer-extra-plugin-stealth which does a lot of stuff to avoid being detected as automated.
16:41:43 <AutomatedTester> ... and there are companies that sell software
16:42:48 <AutomatedTester> ... the webdriver flag is a good thing and we don't want webdriver to support a use case that allows scaping sites that don't want to be scraped
16:42:52 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:43:06 <AutomatedTester> ack foolip
16:43:25 <AutomatedTester> foolip: it does turn it on by default with puppeteer
16:43:50 <AutomatedTester> ... there was a unforgeable added it in the past
16:44:26 <AutomatedTester> ... but then people wanted to copy the entire `navigator` object and then popped the webdriver key
16:45:22 <AutomatedTester> ... if firefox being too strict or too lax?
16:45:34 <AutomatedTester> whimboo: people are complaining that it is too strict
16:46:13 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: People are upset we made them have to work hard to do bad things
16:46:27 <foolip> `Object.defineProperty(navigator, 'webdriver', { value: false })`still works, right?
16:46:45 <jgraham> Yes
16:46:58 <AutomatedTester> action: automatedtester to speak to other frameworks about supporting `navigator.webdriver`
16:47:00 <whimboo> i think we have `true` or `undefined`
16:47:04 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:47:14 <jgraham> We previously had a pref that just prevented the webdriver property being defined at all, because there was concern about compat risk when first shipping
16:47:27 <AutomatedTester> topic: Refactoring work on sessions
16:48:02 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: people might have noticed that I put a few large PR s to both specs
16:48:45 <AutomatedTester> ... the motivation is ... we have previous discussed about how people might conenct to the browser
16:49:02 <AutomatedTester> ... and we want to make sure that we support direct connections or upgrades
16:49:49 <AutomatedTester> ... the other motivation is to allow multiple connections (1 tool for perf, 1 tool for automation)
16:50:08 <AutomatedTester> ... there are going to be options about what people can do
16:50:35 <AutomatedTester> ... the patches allow people to pick and choose what they want to do here
16:51:49 <AutomatedTester> ...[discusses details in patch]
16:54:08 <AutomatedTester> ... this is largely non-normative changes
16:54:40 <AutomatedTester> and a few spec bug fixes
16:55:10 <whimboo> q+
16:55:40 <AutomatedTester> ack whimboo
16:55:59 <AutomatedTester> whimboo: is this for http or for bidi?
16:56:23 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: it's for both. bidi relies on changes into http
16:56:39 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:58:07 <jgraham> RRSAgent: make minutes v2
16:58:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/07/14-webdriver-minutes.html jgraham
16:58:23 <jgraham> Zakim, bye
16:58:23 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been AutomatedTester, whimboo, jgraham, jimevans, foolip, Honza, brwalder, sadym, drousso
16:58:23 <Zakim> Zakim has left #webdriver
16:58:27 <jgraham> RRSAgent: Stop