IRC log of silver on 2021-07-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:50:26 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
12:50:29 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:50:30 [Zakim]
Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
12:51:25 [jeanne]
12:51:32 [jeanne]
Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
12:51:32 [jeanne]
12:51:32 [jeanne]
chair: Shawn, jeanne
12:51:32 [jeanne]
12:51:32 [jeanne]
zakim, clear agenda
12:51:32 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
12:51:32 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
12:51:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jeanne
12:51:32 [jeanne]
12:51:44 [jeanne]
q- Jennifer
12:52:48 [jeanne]
agenda+ new Method format proposal from joint ACT-Silver group
12:52:48 [jeanne]
agenda+ updated proposal on Third Party content
12:52:48 [jeanne]
agenda+ Subgroup update and schedule for August heartbeat
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13:50:00 [sajkaj]
13:54:37 [jeanne]
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13:58:34 [Jemma]
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13:59:10 [Lauriat]
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14:00:00 [PeterKorn]
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14:00:16 [Lauriat]
14:00:19 [Wilco]
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14:00:26 [Wilco]
14:00:36 [mgarrish]
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14:00:40 [PeterKorn]
14:01:28 [Jemma]
14:01:33 [Francis_Storr]
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14:01:58 [Makoto]
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14:02:06 [jeanne]
14:02:11 [sajkaj]
scribe: sajkaj
14:02:11 [jeanne]
14:02:20 [Makoto]
14:02:38 [mgarrish]
14:02:43 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Report on redesign from aCT to make rules less ambiguous
14:02:43 [Wilco]
14:03:07 [sajkaj]
Wilco: Trying to combine Silver Methods with ACT Rules
14:03:14 [sajkaj]
Wilco: Shares screen ...
14:03:19 [JF]
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14:03:19 [jenniferS]
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14:03:24 [jenniferS]
14:03:38 [sajkaj]
Wilco: Worked on updating decorative images methods
14:03:40 [JF]
14:03:54 [sajkaj]
Wilco: had rules that were close, which was reason for starting with this one
14:04:03 [sajkaj]
Wilco: more complicated items will come later
14:04:25 [sajkaj]
Wilco: tried to work out what a method needs in order to get a score
14:04:50 [sajkaj]
Wilco: reads what is needed ...
14:04:56 [sarahhorton]
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14:05:06 [sajkaj]
Wilco: illustrates what we're trying to create
14:05:07 [sarahhorton]
14:05:20 [sajkaj]
Wilco: this particular method turned out to be pretty straight forward
14:05:41 [sajkaj]
Wilco: notes a summary now within description
14:06:02 [sajkaj]
Wilco: two additions from ACT rule into method -- explain what must be present before testing
14:06:23 [sajkaj]
Wilco: also explanation of scope of test -- what's being tested
14:06:34 [sajkaj]
Wilco: e.g. testing the images aren't actually informative
14:06:44 [sajkaj]
Wilco: next come examples
14:06:53 [sajkaj]
Wilco: used ACT examples
14:07:12 [sajkaj]
Wilco: ACT examples include failing and passing examples
14:07:16 [Lauriat]
14:07:20 [sajkaj]
Wilco: including why pass or fail
14:07:43 [ToddLibby]
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14:08:08 [jeanne]
q+ to comment on usability and what aspects that mostly apply to the test tool developers should be in accordions
14:08:26 [sajkaj]
Wilco: includes what to do with pass/fail paths
14:09:02 [sajkaj]
Wilco: notes applicability added to method; also some definitions
14:09:13 [sajkaj]
Wilco: definitions point into a glossary
14:09:17 [sajkaj]
+1 about glossary
14:09:39 [PeterKorn]
14:09:42 [PeterKorn]
14:10:06 [sajkaj]
Wilco: proposing to add section on accessibility support -- things that might not work in all screen readers, browsers, etc; edge cases not considered
14:10:19 [sajkaj]
Wilco: lastly, new glossary section
14:10:53 [sajkaj]
wilco: q?
14:11:02 [Lauriat]
ack jeanne
14:11:02 [Zakim]
jeanne, you wanted to comment on usability and what aspects that mostly apply to the test tool developers should be in accordions
14:11:10 [ToddLibby]
14:11:33 [sajkaj]
jeanne: notes that many details could be hidden in expandable structures
14:11:38 [jeanne]
ack Peter
14:11:38 [Lauriat]
ack PeterKorn
14:12:03 [Lauriat]
"Note: It is relatively common for an informative image such as an icon to be marked up as decorative, if the text alternative is adjacent to the image. This is a conforming alternative version for the image. This fails the rule but meets conformance requirement 1 of WCAG 2.1."
14:12:19 [sajkaj]
PeterKorn: curious note about some informative images with alt text adjacent -- that fail --
14:12:41 [sajkaj]
Wilco: definitely one rule different from methods; something we'll have to sync
14:13:00 [sajkaj]
Wilco: probably new def of purely decorative; but currently out of scope of what we're trying to achieve
14:13:10 [sajkaj]
Wilco: trying to make methods more consistently testable
14:13:44 [sajkaj]
PeterKorn: suggests we might collect what's programatically testable, and what isn't for later examination; this seems one not testable today
14:13:50 [JF]
14:14:07 [jeanne]
14:14:36 [Lauriat]
sajkaj: On the glossary, would this fit into a central glossary so all WAI groups would reference?
14:15:15 [ChrisLoiselle]
W3C does have
14:15:19 [Jemma]
+1 for consistent reference mechanism
14:15:45 [jeanne]
ack JF
14:16:00 [sajkaj]
[general approval for global glossary but may still have need for specific glossaries in some situations]
14:16:03 [ChrisLoiselle]
Full glossary
14:16:09 [Jemma]
and priority in using authorative reference resources
14:17:00 [sajkaj]
jf: asks about cross referencing
14:17:27 [sajkaj]
jeanne: also not wanting to replicate same info in multiple locations that could vary because we restate, as opposed to include
14:17:29 [ToddLibby]
+1 to JF
14:17:44 [sajkaj]
jeanne: notes that should be part of info display when we build the Silver db
14:18:01 [sajkaj]
Wilco: notes that will look at other methods; will this go in August?
14:18:32 [sajkaj]
jeanne: On AG schedule for the 13th; approval would mean would possibly go to subgroups and moving designs into WD
14:18:47 [sajkaj]
jeanne: will be a few "to be developed" editor's notes
14:19:06 [jeanne]
14:19:14 [Jemma]
it would be great if this is using more plain language.
14:19:19 [sajkaj]
zakim, next item
14:19:19 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- new Method format proposal from joint ACT-Silver group -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:19:23 [sajkaj]
14:19:29 [Lauriat]
Scribe: Lauriat
14:19:36 [jeanne]
zakim, take up item 2
14:19:36 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- updated proposal on Third Party content -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:19:47 [jeanne]
14:20:14 [Lauriat]
sajkaj: Same link as before, but updated. New section on "What is Third Party Content?"
14:20:57 [Lauriat]
sajkaj: With sub-heading to clarify that this does not propose to specify exemptions for third party content
14:22:09 [Lauriat]
sajkaj: So much more third party content on the web today that it makes sense to define third party and what would fall under first party, but overall trying to improve the accessibility of third party content.
14:23:32 [Lauriat]
sajkaj: Includes a pointer to a page in the Library of Congress that isn't accessible as an example of the many things that can't be made accessible, but as a way of differentiating between what you can and can't do something about.
14:24:27 [Lauriat]
sajkaj: Lots of notes of explanation to help clarify things, rather than notes that we would want to put into the document itself.
14:25:11 [Lauriat]
sajkaj: Many examples of third party content documented (author-arranged, user-generated, etc.).
14:26:08 [Lauriat]
sajkaj: Given the range of quality of the third party content, we cannot require policing all of the content, but we can provide guidance of how to better support and make this content more accessible.
14:26:45 [Lauriat]
jeanne: Also guidance that belongs in a specific guideline vs. general guidance
14:27:23 [Lauriat]
sajkaj: We include some additional proposed guidance for alternative text, for instance.
14:27:53 [Lauriat]
sajkaj: Makoto already includes guidance on authoring tools.
14:28:14 [Lauriat]
(jeanne, not sajkaj, whoops)
14:28:37 [Lauriat]
14:28:55 [PeterKorn]
14:29:06 [Jemma]
14:29:09 [Lauriat]
JF: Example of hand-written document?
14:29:24 [ChrisLoiselle]
Digitized image archives of content predating the web. Examples of such legacy archives include portions of major national libraries such as the U.S. Library of Congress, the U.K. British Museum, and The Bibliothèque nationale de France Catalogue Général. A specific example is this Image of a handwritten 19th Century document at the U.S. Library of Congress.
14:29:26 [jeanne]
14:29:32 [Lauriat]
sajkaj: Yes, included that example.
14:29:40 [jeanne]
A specific example is this Image of a handwritten 19th Century document at the U.S. Library of Congress.
14:30:02 [jeanne]
ack Peter
14:30:37 [Lauriat]
PeterKorn: Process question, I have a collection of small edits, how can we best handle those? Post-survey or now?
14:30:45 [sarahhorton]
14:30:51 [Lauriat]
jeanne: Post-survey, we already have people answering.
14:30:56 [PeterKorn]
14:31:33 [PeterKorn]
14:31:57 [Lauriat]
Jemma: Working on content from medical records system, with inaccessible things coming from there. Would that fall under this?
14:32:24 [Lauriat]
jeanne: Yes, under author-arranged.
14:33:19 [Lauriat]
PeterKorn: If the hospital takes an x-ray and digitizes it, they have the responsibility, so first party. If one organization gets it from the hospital, then third party content for the organization.
14:33:21 [PeterKorn]
14:33:27 [Lauriat]
ack Jemma
14:33:34 [sarahhorton]
14:33:59 [ChrisLoiselle]
q+ If the owner of the medical record is the vendor EPIC System , is it the EPIC system that talks to other doctor's offices or hospitals, is it then the EPIC system generator rather than the doctor that authored the note in the system?
14:34:15 [Lauriat]
jeanne: Another use case example we can document.
14:34:32 [Lauriat]
sajkaj: For those defining the records format, as well.
14:35:27 [Lauriat]
jenniferS: An example that came up recently, PDFs considered too laborious to make accessible and the organization considered it a "nice to have".
14:35:54 [Jemma]
Jeanne is correct that university is responsible for this case
14:36:43 [Jemma]
yes, exampe of redcap medical record system
14:36:48 [Lauriat]
jeanne: For organizations who are the consumer of data, we need to establish the producer as responsible.
14:36:55 [Jemma]
14:37:06 [jeanne]
14:37:15 [Jemma]
yes, EPIC is another example
14:37:41 [PeterKorn]
14:37:45 [PeterKorn]
14:37:53 [Lauriat]
ChrisLoiselle: From a third party vendor, if a doctor produces content within a third party vendor's system, then the system itself would have the responsibility vs. the doctor themselves.
14:38:02 [Lauriat]
ack sarahhorton
14:38:02 [jeanne]
ack sar
14:38:12 [ChrisLoiselle]
agreed, thanks Shawn.
14:38:21 [PeterKorn]
14:38:50 [Lauriat]
sarahhorton: On the point that it's not an exemption, how does this work exactly in WCAG3?
14:39:32 [Lauriat]
sajkaj: Trying to make conformance on this point that you've done everything that you can do vs. requiring everything to conform regardless of who produced the content.
14:39:43 [Lauriat]
sarahhorton: Critical errors?
14:41:07 [Lauriat]
jeanne: Yes, and we envisioned having third party outcomes as a way of documenting how to handle these cases (old movies without captions which can't have captions for whatever reason, etc.).
14:41:11 [Jemma]
can we add EPIC/REDCAP use cases to the third party content?
14:41:25 [PeterKorn]
14:41:28 [Jemma]
+1 Sarah
14:41:35 [PeterKorn]
(in queue for services example)
14:42:17 [Lauriat]
sarahhorton: Content vs. services, we don't have services examples, which would help. A third party authentication module used in place of an existing module, which then causes problems.
14:43:36 [Lauriat]
sajkaj: I don't think that example would conform. Mixes of the two also enter into things.
14:44:15 [Lauriat]
sarahhorton: An organization that chooses to use third party modules to avoid having to conform, in this case.
14:44:37 [Lauriat]
jeanne: A really good example that we should document.
14:45:21 [Lauriat]
sarahhorton: Third party payment gateway as another example, where it doesn't matter to me as a user who has the responsibility.
14:45:34 [Lauriat]
ack PeterKorn
14:47:25 [Lauriat]
PeterKorn: When, where, and how is it most effective for WCAG to drive change. If I want to accept a credit card, few credit card processing services exist to use. I may have little ability to drive change and also little ability to create my own alternative.
14:47:47 [Lauriat]
PeterKorn: The content examples come easily, but the services aspect becomes more difficult.
14:48:00 [Lauriat]
sarahhorton: Have you tried not addressing services as a part of this?
14:48:05 [Lauriat]
PeterKorn: Good question.
14:48:07 [JF]
Why? Avoidance just kicks the problem down the road
14:49:10 [Lauriat]
PeterKorn: We could also try addressing it differently. (gives some examples of critical errors in services)
14:50:01 [Lauriat]
sajkaj: An example I've hit, where some of the service is inaccessible due to images with no alt text, but I still have a way to make it through to the end.
14:50:15 [jeanne]
q+ to talk about profiles
14:50:48 [Lauriat]
PeterKorn: Maybe alt text guidance could include documenting things acceptable first-vs-third party.
14:50:54 [Lauriat]
ack jeanne
14:50:54 [Zakim]
jeanne, you wanted to talk about profiles
14:50:55 [jeanne]
ack jeanne
14:50:56 [jenniferS]
Would it be useful to distinguish by use case, too?
14:50:57 [PeterKorn]
14:51:18 [jenniferS]
For example, as the error criteria spells out health, finance, etc.?
14:51:46 [Lauriat]
jeanne: We could approach it that way and we could also approach it as a profile (from JF's proposal), so we can keep putting responsibility back on the service providers.
14:52:32 [Jemma]
+ 1 Jeanne
14:53:14 [Lauriat]
jeanne: In the U.S., today, typically people would bring lawsuits to the organization using the service, rather than the service provider. The organization could have an accessibility statement documenting what they've tried to do to provide an accessible path, pointing to the failures in the service provider.
14:53:35 [Jemma]
14:53:36 [JF]
14:53:41 [PeterKorn]
In an A11y Statement, you could imagine: "We canvassed all 3rd party payment processors, and none met a11y requirements"
14:53:46 [PeterKorn]
14:53:49 [Lauriat]
ack JF
14:54:24 [jenniferS]
14:54:25 [Lauriat]
JF: The concept of profiles hasn't really been fleshed out for everyone in the WG, but the assertions part could also provide a way of handling this.
14:54:30 [Lauriat]
+1 to JF
14:54:45 [Lauriat]
ack PeterKorn
14:54:59 [jeanne]
ack peter
14:55:36 [Lauriat]
PeterKorn: One other thing, third party services can change. Accessible services can become inaccessible (iframe-rendered makes this common).
14:56:07 [Lauriat]
ack jenniferS
14:56:08 [PeterKorn]
14:56:09 [JF]
+1 to that important wrinkle
14:56:31 [Lauriat]
jenniferS: And context, like health and finance.
14:57:09 [jeanne]
that could be another example of a profile -- health care and finance
14:57:19 [PeterKorn]
14:57:35 [Lauriat]
PeterKorn: It comes back to how we handle scoring, where maybe regulators could say health care needs to hit this particular level.
14:57:39 [jeanne]
q+ to say I would rather see profiles with higher standards than different medals
14:57:41 [Lauriat]
ack PeterKorn
14:58:04 [Lauriat]
ack jeanne
14:58:04 [Zakim]
jeanne, you wanted to say I would rather see profiles with higher standards than different medals
14:58:06 [jeanne]
14:58:30 [Lauriat]
jeanne: I'd rather see this handled with profiles, rather than adding different currencies.
14:58:51 [JF]
14:59:23 [Francis_Storr]
14:59:28 [jeanne]
14:59:36 [Lauriat]
jeanne: Subgroup members, please look at plans for the August draft and email me with what you think you'll have for the August draft, with dates so I can get you scheduled for the joint AG WG meetings.
14:59:58 [sarahhorton]
- If courts require WCAG compliance, and WCAG compliance can include inaccessible 3rd party content and services, are we undermining its value as a measure of accessibility, and way to prevent exclusion and discrimination?
15:01:05 [ToddLibby]
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15:01:19 [Lauriat]
Zakim, make minutes
15:01:19 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'make minutes', Lauriat
15:01:31 [Lauriat]
RRSAgent, make minutes
15:01:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Lauriat
15:03:03 [Lauriat]
Zakim, end meeting
15:03:03 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been jeanne, sajkaj, Lauriat, Wilco, PeterKorn, Jemma, Makoto, mgarrish, jenniferS, JF, sarahhorton, ToddLibby, Francis_Storr
15:03:06 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes v1
15:03:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Zakim
15:03:08 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, Lauriat; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
15:03:13 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #silver
15:17:33 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:17:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jeanne
16:48:30 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #silver
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