23:52:35 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #epub
23:52:35 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/07/08-epub-irc
23:52:38 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
23:52:38 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), dauwhe
23:52:48 <dauwhe> Meeting: EPUB 3 Working Group Telecon
23:52:51 <dauwhe> chair: dauwhe
23:53:11 <dauwhe> present+
23:54:58 <wendyreid> present+
23:56:50 <shiestyle> shiestyle has joined #epub
23:57:39 <MattChan> MattChan has joined #epub
23:59:59 <MasakazuKitahara> MasakazuKitahara has joined #epub
00:00:05 <toshiakikoike> toshiakikoike has joined #epub
00:00:07 <MasakazuKitahara> present+
00:00:20 <toshiakikoike> present+
00:00:30 <shiestyle> present+
00:01:37 <MattChan> scribe+
00:01:50 <duga> duga has joined #epub
00:02:00 <duga> present+
00:02:43 <BenSchroeter> BenSchroeter has joined #epub
00:02:53 <BenSchroeter> present+
00:03:38 <MattChan> dauwhe: we had a request to republish core and RS
00:04:09 <MattChan> ... can we get a resolution to publish new working drafts of above?
00:04:22 <wendyreid> Proposed: Republish the latest revisions of EPUB 3.3 Core and Reading Systems
00:04:27 <dauwhe> +1
00:04:30 <duga> +1
00:04:30 <wendyreid> +1
00:04:30 <MattChan> +1
00:04:34 <BenSchroeter> +1
00:04:35 <shiestyle> +1
00:04:36 <MURATA> +1
00:04:39 <toshiakikoike> +1
00:04:40 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
00:04:44 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Republish the latest revisions of EPUB 3.3 Core and Reading Systems
00:04:49 <MURATA> +10
00:05:17 <MattChan> TOPIC: Summer WG break
00:05:46 <MattChan> dauwhe: quite a few WG people will be away in the next month. Ivan, myself, etc.
00:06:10 <MattChan> ... propose that we resume WG meetings 13th of Aug
00:06:26 <MattChan> ... that would get us through the majority of the vacations we are aware of
00:07:23 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/1751
00:07:25 <MattChan> TOPIC: Private use areas in HTML
00:07:52 <MattChan> dauwhe: we had a section in spec that said if you use unicode private use area (PUA) characters, then you should embed a font
00:08:38 <MattChan> ... just having that statement in there seemed kind of odd. Its just best practice advice, and don't want to mess with unicode PUA
00:08:45 <MattChan> ... PR would remove this section of spec
00:08:58 <MURATA> +q
00:09:00 <MattChan> ... mgarrish was waiting for confirmation from WG this was okay
00:09:03 <dauwhe> ack mur
00:09:19 <MattChan> MURATA: is the proposal to entirely remove that section, and nothing else?
00:09:34 <MattChan> wendyreid: yes, and adding that to the change log
00:09:47 <MattChan> duga: there was also a comment on issue of moving it to discouraged constructs
00:10:40 <MattChan> MURATA: in spec we refer to CHARMOD matching, but not CHARMOD fundamentals, because fundamentals has a section dealing with PUA codepoints
00:11:02 <MattChan> ... we should try to rely on these instead of inventing our own. Don't want to do anything that goes against what is already in Fundamentals
00:11:50 <MattChan> s/fundamentals, because/fundamentals. I think we should refer to Fundamentals too
00:12:27 <MURATA> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/references.html#references
00:12:43 <MattChan> wendyreid: Ivan made the point that we rely on HTML5, which already refers to CHARMOD documents
00:13:22 <dauwhe> q?
00:13:39 <MattChan> dauwhe: to my mind this is an HTML question, and HTML refers to CHARMOD, so I don't see need for us to explicitly refer as well
00:13:46 <duga> q+
00:14:04 <MattChan> MURATA: does SVG refer to CHARMOD too?
00:14:33 <shiestyle> q+
00:14:42 <duga> ack duga
00:14:48 <dauwhe> ack sh
00:14:52 <MattChan> duga: whether or not SVG does seems like a minor thing. It already encompases so much more, e.g. allowing authors to draw whatever characters they want
00:15:07 <MattChan> shiestyle addresses JP members in Japanese
00:16:51 <MattChan> shiestyle: MURATA's opinion is not an objection to this proposal
00:17:06 <MattChan> MURATA: yes, just suggesting a minor change
00:17:33 <wendyreid> Proposed: Merge PR 1751
00:17:35 <MattChan> dauwhe: propose we accept this PR. If we have big problems with SVGs and PUA, then we can revisit
00:17:40 <dauwhe> +1
00:17:42 <MURATA> +11
00:17:42 <shiestyle> +1
00:17:42 <duga> +1
00:17:44 <toshiakikoike> +1
00:17:45 <MattChan> +1
00:17:45 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
00:17:45 <wendyreid> +1
00:17:51 <BenSchroeter> +1
00:17:52 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Merge PR 1751
00:18:14 <wendyreid> https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/tts/index.html
00:18:25 <MattChan> TOPIC: TTS Note
00:18:52 <MattChan> wendyreid: as we discussed couple weeks ago, we've moved SSML and PLS out of spec and into its own document
00:19:10 <MattChan> ... this would be published as a WG note. So not rec-track.
00:19:10 <MURATA> +1
00:19:25 <MattChan> ... proposing that we publish this document
00:19:33 <MattChan> dauwhe: as a first draft WG note?
00:19:35 <MattChan> wendyreid: yes
00:20:03 <MattChan> dauwhe: and just publishing it as a note doesn't preclude us from continuing to work on it?
00:20:08 <MattChan> wendyreid: yes
00:20:10 <dauwhe> q?
00:21:10 <wendyreid> Proposed: Publish Text-to-speech Enhancements 1.0, with the short name "epub-tts"
00:21:13 <dauwhe> +1
00:21:16 <wendyreid> +1
00:21:16 <shiestyle> +1
00:21:16 <toshiakikoike> +1
00:21:17 <MattChan> +1
00:21:19 <duga> +1
00:21:20 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
00:21:24 <MURATA> +1
00:21:25 <BenSchroeter> +1
00:21:50 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Publish Text-to-speech Enhancements 1.0, with the short name "epub-tts" as a working group note
00:22:12 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1745
00:22:14 <MattChan> TOPIC: Media Overlays and Images
00:22:27 <MattChan> wendyreid: can you TTS an image in a media overlay document?
00:22:28 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/1753
00:23:07 <MattChan> ... question comes down to, in MO we make mention of the fact that there should be an audio alternative to media (i.e. audio, video, AND images)
00:24:25 <MattChan> ... and whether TTS and alt-text could fill this requirement
00:24:52 <dauwhe> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/epub-specs/1753/0c4b16f...692aabc.html#sec-embedded-media
00:25:10 <MattChan> dauwhe: this diff preview seems to be working better for me
00:25:46 <MattChan> ... basically it splits out embedded images separately from audio and video
00:26:32 <MattChan> ... says that audio for embedded images is optional, and TTS reading out alt-text will be used as a fallback
00:26:33 <duga> q+
00:26:42 <MURATA> q+
00:26:42 <mgarrish> mgarrish has joined #epub
00:26:44 <MattChan> ... to me this makes sense
00:26:45 <dauwhe> ack du
00:28:12 <MattChan> duga: not sure it makes sense to me. The purpose of MO is to have narrated text associated with the elements of the MO. Not sure why you would reference the image in MO but not have narration, and instead rely on the TTS and alt-text fallback
00:28:58 <MURATA> q-
00:29:19 <MattChan> mgarrish: in embedded images we include ability to embed audio, video, and images. This is so that playback of audio, video, etc. could be started via the MO
00:30:33 <MattChan> duga: my reading of spec is that audio element is required for every text element
00:30:49 <MattChan> mgarrish: so what happens when the "text" element is an image?
00:34:04 <MattChan> duga: well i don't think it would be valid to include a reference to an image without audio. Spec says audio must be included unless it is "content intended to be rendered via TTS". Not sure if image (within a div) counts.
00:34:44 <MattChan> mgarrish: in HTML normally TTS would pick up the alt-text of the image
00:35:35 <MattChan> ... so why can't the TTS be used to voice the alt-text of the image in this case
00:36:38 <MattChan> duga: not sure what normal TTS behaviour is. Perhaps this is why use of this fallback TTS feature is rare
00:37:52 <MattChan> mgarrish: My guess is that the purpose of having TTS as a fallback to narration is that you might not want to get a professional narrator to narrate some parts of a MO book. e.g. backmatter
00:37:59 <MattChan> ... so you could leave this to TTS
00:38:35 <MattChan> dauwhe: I think we should wait for more comment. From Marissa, from NNELs, from other users of MO in the wild
00:38:54 <wendyreid> s/Marissa/Marisa/
00:39:07 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1482
00:39:09 <MattChan> TOPIC: Page progression direction
00:40:19 <MattChan> dauwhe: spec requires that when page progression direction (PPD) is not explicit, RS MUST assume value of "default"
00:40:30 <MattChan> ... not sure how to test this requirement
00:40:51 <MattChan> ... also, what happens when having just the language element is not enough for RS to set the PPD?
00:41:10 <MattChan> ... I proposed some alternate language in the issue, but there didn't seem to be consensus
00:41:18 <MURATA> +q
00:41:33 <wendyreid> ack MURATA
00:41:56 <MattChan> MURATA: are you trying to relax requirements? Saying that MUST is too strong?
00:42:38 <MattChan> dauwhe: it's more that requiring the RS to assume "default" is essentially saying that RS can do whatever it wants
00:42:56 <MattChan> MURATA: ah, so if we are going to impose normative restriction, then it should result in something observable
00:43:12 <duga> q+
00:43:46 <MattChan> dauwhe: e.g. what should happen if PPD is unstated, but language is Arabic? What are we requiring RS do in that case?
00:44:15 <MattChan> ... not always possible to determine what "correct" PPD is based solely on language
00:44:25 <dauwhe> ack dug
00:45:10 <MattChan> MURATA: so can we drop the entire second sentence in the proposed language?
00:45:47 <MURATA> Not specifying the ppd is already inviting a trouble.
00:45:55 <MattChan> dauwhe: right, in case the RS has some better way of choosing PPD (other than looking at the first language element)
00:46:06 <shiestyle> q+
00:46:11 <dauwhe> ack sh
00:46:44 <MattChan> shiestyle: SHOULD is a little strong because JP content uses both RtL and LtR PPD
00:47:07 <MattChan> dauwhe: so we're thinking of deleting that sentence entirely, so that there is no longer a should at all
00:47:57 <wendyreid> Proposed: Change text for page-progression-direction to "When the default value of the page-progression-direction attribute is specified, or the attribute is absent, the Reading System can choose the rendering direction.", drop assertion, close issue 1482
00:48:02 <dauwhe> +1
00:48:04 <MURATA> +1
00:48:05 <shiestyle> +1
00:48:06 <BenSchroeter> +1
00:48:07 <MattChan> +1
00:48:07 <toshiakikoike> +1
00:48:11 <mgarrish> +1
00:48:16 <duga> +1
00:48:17 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
00:48:17 <wendyreid> +1
00:48:24 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Change text for page-progression-direction to "When the default value of the page-progression-direction attribute is specified, or the attribute is absent, the Reading System can choose the rendering direction.", drop assertion, close issue 1482
00:48:58 <mgarrish> q+
00:49:02 <dauwhe> ack mg
00:49:25 <MattChan> mgarrish: ivan wanted to do a republication of the spec using his new setup
00:49:43 <MattChan> dauwhe: yes, we resolved to republishing core and RS. Do we need to republish the others?
00:50:05 <MattChan> mgarrish: might need to the a11y. Can't remember when we last resolved to publish that one
00:50:12 <MattChan> ... I suspect we may have changed it since then
00:50:28 <wendyreid> Proposed: Publish latest version of EPUB Accessibility 1.1
00:50:32 <MattChan> s/need to the a11y/need to republish the a11y
00:50:49 <wendyreid> Proposed: Publish latest version of EPUB Accessibility 1.1 and EPUB Accessibility Techniques 1.1
00:50:53 <dauwhe> +1
00:50:56 <BenSchroeter> +1
00:50:57 <toshiakikoike> +1
00:50:57 <MattChan> +1
00:50:57 <wendyreid> +1
00:50:59 <mgarrish> +1
00:50:59 <shiestyle> +1
00:50:59 <MURATA> +1
00:51:01 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
00:51:05 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Publish latest version of EPUB Accessibility 1.1 and EPUB Accessibility Techniques 1.1
00:52:52 <MattChan> dauwhe: thanks everyone, we'll reconvene Aug 13th
00:53:10 <dauwhe> zakim, end meeting
00:53:10 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been dauwhe, wendyreid, MasakazuKitahara, toshiakikoike, shiestyle, duga, BenSchroeter
00:53:12 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
00:53:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/07/08-epub-minutes.html Zakim
00:53:15 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, dauwhe; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
00:53:19 <Zakim> Zakim has left #epub
00:57:41 <dauwhe> RRSAgent: draft minutes
00:57:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/07/08-epub-minutes.html dauwhe
00:57:46 <dauwhe> RRSAgent: make logs public
01:41:52 <Garth> Garth has joined #epub
02:23:02 <dauwhe> rrsagent, draft minutes
02:23:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/07/08-epub-minutes.html dauwhe
03:42:32 <dauwhe_> dauwhe_ has joined #epub
03:44:47 <dauwhe_> dauwhe_ has joined #epub
03:57:31 <Karen> Karen has joined #epub
04:24:48 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
05:09:53 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
05:44:34 <Garth> Garth has joined #epub
05:57:52 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
05:59:38 <dauwhe_> dauwhe_ has joined #epub
07:47:52 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
09:00:23 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
09:45:31 <Garth> Garth has joined #epub
11:48:51 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
12:08:21 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
13:48:16 <Garth> Garth has joined #epub
13:57:42 <ivan> ivan has joined #epub
14:14:57 <Karen> Karen has joined #epub
15:45:23 <Garth> Garth has joined #epub
16:14:29 <Karen> Karen has joined #epub
16:15:39 <Karen> Karen has joined #epub
17:01:55 <Garth> Garth has joined #epub
19:01:28 <Garth> Garth has joined #epub
21:15:15 <Karen> Karen has joined #epub
21:52:44 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
22:00:32 <Garth> Garth has joined #epub
22:32:28 <Karen> Karen has joined #epub
04:01:48 <Garth> Garth has joined #epub
21:16:49 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
22:22:35 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
22:57:10 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
22:58:57 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
00:39:39 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
00:41:16 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub