13:19:51 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #coga
13:19:51 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/07/08-coga-irc
13:19:53 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:19:53 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #coga
13:19:55 <trackbot> Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
13:19:55 <trackbot> Date: 08 July 2021
13:20:19 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda?
13:20:46 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda + Updates, actions and tracking requests with other groups: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/PlanningPage#Actions
13:21:22 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda+ actions equests https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Actions_Requests
13:21:30 <LisaSeemanKest> RRSAgent, publish minutes
13:21:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/07/08-coga-minutes.html LisaSeemanKest
13:26:16 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda+ accessible authentification
13:26:47 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda+ visible controls https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/1877
13:27:00 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda+ visible controls https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/1877
13:27:19 <LisaSeemanKest> close item 5
13:27:28 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda+ visible controls https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/1877
13:27:41 <LisaSeemanKest> close item 6
13:28:02 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda+ visible controls https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/1888
13:28:14 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda+ new comunities
13:28:44 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda+ inclusive groups
13:33:59 <johnkirkwood> johnkirkwood has joined #COGA
13:36:08 <johnkirkwood_> johnkirkwood_ has joined #coga
13:37:16 <JustineP> JustineP has joined #coga
13:49:58 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda+ orgnizing reaserch
13:54:43 <stevelee> stevelee has joined #coga
13:55:15 <Fazio> Fazio has joined #coga
13:58:04 <LisaSeemanKest> scribe: JustineP
13:59:02 <Jennie> Jennie has joined #coga
13:59:06 <Jennie> present+
13:59:16 <Rain> Rain has joined #coga
13:59:21 <Rain> present+
13:59:29 <JustineP> present+
13:59:32 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda+
13:59:50 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda?
14:00:43 <JohnRochford> JohnRochford has joined #coga
14:00:45 <LisaSeemanKest> scribe: JustineP
14:00:53 <LisaSeemanKest> zakim, next item
14:00:53 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Updates, actions and tracking requests with other groups: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/PlanningPage#Actions -- taken up [from LisaSeemanKest]
14:00:56 <AbiJ> AbiJ has joined #coga
14:00:56 <JohnRochford> present+
14:01:48 <JustineP> Lisa: Mental health subgroup wrapping up lit review (target end of  July)
14:02:16 <JustineP> ...APA review, do we have feedback from Josh?
14:02:17 <cweidner> cweidner has joined #COGA
14:02:26 <cweidner> present+
14:02:53 <JustineP> Rain: They have feedback that they needed from us, made progress with personalization.
14:03:17 <JustineP> Lisa: Jenni, Rain deadline next week for image subgroup
14:03:26 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda?
14:03:26 <JustineP> ...Clear words subgroup will meet later today.
14:04:27 <LisaSeemanKest> zakim, next item
14:04:27 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- actions equests https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Actions_Requests -- taken up [from LisaSeemanKest]
14:04:33 <JustineP> Rain: Francis will join at the beginning of the clear words meeting to demo his project SilverWriter
14:04:52 <AbiJ> present+
14:05:43 <JustineP> Lisa: EO has a number of documents that will be released next week. Those docs would benefit from COGA input. Any volunteers to review and discuss with this group so that we can provide feedback?
14:06:08 <Rain> q+
14:06:20 <LisaSeemanKest> ack r
14:06:55 <JustineP> Rain: EO expects to send docs by July 16 and they will need feedback returned by July 26 (although we can tell them if additional time will be needed).
14:07:29 <JustineP> Lisa: We will need people to read docs, send feedback to the list, and discuss in a COGA meeting.
14:07:38 <JustineP> ...Anyone interested?
14:07:46 <Fazio> present+
14:08:14 <JustineP> John K: I'm interested. Can we use Google docs?
14:08:25 <JustineP> Lisa: Yes.
14:10:37 <JustineP> ...Working with Silver: As each subgroup considers moving user stories into Silver guidance template, we will need to collect references/links. Should we begin as Google docs and transfer to Wiki page? Need to gather research, testable statements, etc.
14:11:15 <JustineP> ...If we know that certain issues will be raised, we should be able to refer people to references/documentation.
14:11:52 <Jennie> +1 - would be great to have a place to collect and review
14:11:56 <JustineP> ...Everyone okay with this approach?
14:12:12 <JustineP> +1
14:12:16 <johnkirkwood> +1
14:12:22 <Jennie> q+
14:12:25 <Rain> +1
14:12:30 <AbiJ> +1
14:12:31 <LisaSeemanKest> ack j
14:12:44 <stevelee> present+
14:13:13 <JustineP> Jennie: From reading different research topics, some of our terminology might differ from the research terms. Can we create a list of keywords?
14:13:27 <JustineP> Lisa: Yes. Let's add a list of tags/keywords to the top of the doc.
14:14:14 <JustineP> ...Any volunteers to create Google doc template?
14:14:40 <LisaSeemanKest> zakim, next item
14:14:40 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- accessible authentification -- taken up [from LisaSeemanKest]
14:14:43 <JustineP> Rain: I can create the template unless we have another volunteer.
14:15:42 <johnkirkwood> present+
14:15:49 <JustineP> Lisa: APA actions are done. Silver actions are in progress. Pronunciation APA might need follow up. Also will look at two AG comments.
14:15:49 <LisaSeemanKest> zakim, next item
14:15:49 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- visible controls https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/1877 -- taken up [from LisaSeemanKest]
14:16:18 <LisaSeemanKest> zakim, take up item 6
14:16:18 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- visible controls https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/1877 -- taken up [from LisaSeemanKest]
14:16:36 <LisaSeemanKest> zakim, take up item 8
14:16:36 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- new comunities -- taken up [from LisaSeemanKest]
14:16:43 <LisaSeemanKest> zakim, take up item 7
14:16:43 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- visible controls https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/1888 -- taken up [from LisaSeemanKest]
14:17:07 <LisaSeemanKest> topic:accessible authetification
14:17:55 <JustineP> Lisa: We proposed to look at 4 open issues from AG in a subgroup. Does that sound like the right path forward?
14:18:33 <Rain> q+
14:18:34 <JustineP> John R: Are issues unresolved?
14:18:41 <JustineP> Lisa: Some issues seem to have been reopened.
14:19:14 <JustineP> Rain: We spent a fair amount of time during last 2 meetings to prepare a response for issues related to accessible authentication (password toggle, user uploaded pictures).
14:20:06 <JustineP> ...Challenge is that we have varying, strong needs for the SC. Each time COGA has responded, new issues are raised in response to our feedback. EA has raised good points related to security policies.
14:20:26 <JustineP> ...We might need to form a subgroup to examine the issues thoroughly.
14:21:32 <JustineP> John R: That has been going on for a long time and is typical for new, upcoming SCs. I think its important for people to understand that COGA has appropriate expertise.
14:21:33 <AbiJ> q+
14:22:30 <JustineP> ...Alastair has responded to Abi. I thought discussion was going well because no one has re-opened issues.
14:22:36 <JustineP> s/EA/Abi
14:23:06 <JustineP> Rain: After last call, I sent an email asking for consensus from COGA and additional issues were raised in response.
14:23:40 <JustineP> ...We still don't have consensus from COGA.
14:23:53 <JustineP> John R: Is that because not enough people responded or due to -1's?
14:24:03 <JustineP> Rain: Due to -1's.
14:24:11 <LisaSeemanKest> q+
14:24:19 <LisaSeemanKest> ack r
14:24:27 <LisaSeemanKest> ack a
14:24:28 <JustineP> Abi: I am actively involved with organizations that have significant security requirements related to accessible authentication.
14:25:19 <JustineP> ...It seemed that the response was broadening scope of SC, specifically related to password fields, which could cause organizations to claim exceptions around the SC.
14:25:27 <Jennie> q+
14:25:49 <AbiJ> q+
14:26:36 <JustineP> Lisa: I didn't think that being able to view your password solved the problem. Didn't seem enough from my perspective. We will still have issues with lengthy username/password combinations.
14:26:49 <JustineP> ...I would downgrade that to an advisory technique.
14:26:52 <LisaSeemanKest> ack j
14:27:08 <JustineP> John R: Yes, that will be in the Understanding doc rather than directly in the SC text.
14:27:43 <LisaSeemanKest> q+
14:27:59 <JustineP> Jennie: Could we look at graduated response as it relates to Silver's conformance model?
14:28:16 <LisaSeemanKest> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG22/#accessible-authentication
14:28:17 <JustineP> Lisa: We proposed to look at 4 open issues from AG in a subgroup. Does that sound like the right path forward??
14:28:40 <JustineP> Ignore the last, copy/paste issue
14:29:15 <JustineP> John R: Abi, should we have a conversation and bring our thoughts back to COGA?
14:30:06 <JustineP> Abi: Yes, I can discuss from my own perspective what a cognitive function test is.
14:31:09 <JustineP> Lisa: Does that sound okay, John? To form a small group discussion with Abi, John, Alastair (John K and Lisa volunteered). This is a big issue that needs to be addressed.
14:31:41 <JustineP> ...Anyone available to coordinate the time/date of the call?
14:32:08 <JustineP> ...John R, do you want to send a list of possible times?
14:32:33 <JustineP> Abi: Happy to take the action.
14:33:00 <AbiJ> present-
14:33:05 <LisaSeemanKest> zakim, next item
14:33:05 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, LisaSeemanKest
14:33:10 <LisaSeemanKest> Q?
14:33:16 <LisaSeemanKest> ack l
14:33:19 <LisaSeemanKest> ack a
14:33:22 <LisaSeemanKest> zakim, next item
14:33:22 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- visible controls https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/1877 -- taken up [from LisaSeemanKest]
14:33:28 <JohnRochford> I too must go.
14:34:51 <johnkirkwood> I would say, yes
14:35:01 <JustineP> Lisa: To summarize, issue is related to obscure content in Understanding doc. Anyone up-to-date on this thread?
14:35:24 <JustineP> John K: I've been on top of that thread. Clear instructions seems to resolve issue.
14:35:48 <JustineP> s/seems/seem
14:35:54 <LisaSeemanKest> we think clear instuction on how to reach the control, that are on the page is enough
14:35:57 <Jennie> q+
14:36:08 <JustineP> Jennie: I'd add "before the control" to the text.
14:36:17 <LisaSeemanKest> we think clear instuction on how to reach the control, that are on the page before the control  is enough
14:36:25 <JustineP> +1 Jennie
14:37:08 <JustineP> ...Does reading order get forced by the language that has been selected?
14:37:24 <JustineP> ...If information is on the left of the control, would it switch?
14:37:32 <JustineP> Lisa: Yes, if properly encoded.
14:37:40 <JustineP> Jennie: Okay with "adjacent" in that case.
14:37:43 <JustineP> John K: Agree.
14:37:46 <LisaSeemanKest> +1
14:37:55 <johnkirkwood> +1
14:37:57 <JustineP> +1
14:38:05 <LisaSeemanKest> we think clear instuction on how to reach the control, that are on the page before or agasent to  the control  is enough
14:38:11 <Jennie> +1
14:38:16 <LisaSeemanKest> q?
14:38:22 <JustineP> Lisa: Any objections?
14:38:23 <LisaSeemanKest> ack  j
14:38:30 <LisaSeemanKest> zakim, next item
14:38:30 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- new comunities -- taken up [from LisaSeemanKest]
14:38:55 <LisaSeemanKest> topic issue https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/1888
14:39:02 <LisaSeemanKest> topic: issue https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/1888
14:40:25 <JustineP> Lisa: This issue is also related to visible controls. If you have an icon or visual indicator such as a down arrow, that will indicate that controls are visible by clicking in that area.
14:40:26 <Jennie> q+
14:40:30 <LisaSeemanKest> coga feels that a single control such as an arrow(and  text or personlization sematics for more ?) will indicate that contols are availible by clicking here. The full toolbar can be visible on clicking the "more icon"
14:41:11 <JustineP> Jennie: Seems like a great idea to have a toggle to expose additional controls/options menu. Are you comfortable using "right click" function with relevant instructions placed before the area?
14:41:50 <johnkirkwood> clear insturcutions on how to reveal controls ?
14:42:01 <JustineP> Lisa: If we have clear instructions located before the control, that's okay with me. We can explicitly call for clear instructions before the control in the text.
14:42:09 <Jennie> ack Jennie
14:42:47 <Rain> +1 to "clear instructions to reveal controls"
14:42:48 <LisaSeemanKest> coga feels that a single control or togel  such as an arrow (and  text or personlization semantics for more ?) will indicate that controls are available by clicking here. The full toolbar can be visible on clicking the "more icon". clear instructions on how to reveal controls before or agec on the
14:42:56 <JustineP> John K: What about "clear instructions to reveal controls"? That would address the concern about having too many controls appearing on-screen.
14:43:22 <Jennie> q+
14:43:56 <JustineP> Jennie: What about a "more" option visible on-screen without relevant instruction?
14:44:04 <Jennie> ack Jennie
14:44:15 <johnkirkwood> “provide clear instruction on how to reveal hidden controls”
14:44:19 <JustineP> Lisa: That relates to common controls and personalization.
14:45:09 <JustineP> Jennie: I think we will be asked how that can be measured. I'd define "clear".
14:46:25 <LisaSeemanKest> coga feels that it need clear how to reveal hiden controls.
14:46:25 <LisaSeemanKest> clear: can be "more" icon with text or personlization sematice
14:46:26 <LisaSeemanKest> clear instructions on how to reveal controls before or agecnt to the controls
14:46:37 <JustineP> Lisa: Please +1 or comment on pasted/proposed response
14:47:05 <Jennie> more icon or other toggle familiar with users?
14:47:22 <LisaSeemanKest> q?
14:47:29 <LisaSeemanKest> +1
14:47:37 <Jennie> q+
14:47:48 <LisaSeemanKest> ack j
14:47:56 <JustineP> Jennie: Could we add "or other toggle familiar with users"?
14:47:59 <JustineP> Lisa: Yes.
14:48:05 <Jennie> +1 with that change
14:48:08 <Rain> +1 with that change
14:48:23 <LisaSeemanKest>  clear: can be "more" icon or other toggle familiar with users" with text or personlization sematices,
14:49:17 <JustineP> +1
14:49:20 <LisaSeemanKest> justien is happy with this
14:50:29 <LisaSeemanKest>  clear: can be  an icon or toggle familiar with users" with text or personlization sematices,
14:50:46 <JustineP> John K: Okay with me (last version Lisa pasted)
14:51:00 <Rain> +1
14:51:17 <JustineP> John K: Verifying that we have "adjacent" included?
14:51:21 <JustineP> Lisa: Yes. Any objections?
14:51:27 <LisaSeemanKest> zakim, next item
14:51:27 <Zakim> agendum 9 -- inclusive groups -- taken up [from LisaSeemanKest]
14:51:34 <johnkirkwood> in agreement
14:52:53 <Jennie> I can participate in reviewing by document, but cannot add more meetings at this time.
14:52:56 <JustineP> Lisa: Moving clear words into plain language for Silver...I want to ensure that we have enough COGA participants involved in re-writing. Anyone interested in assisting?
14:53:47 <JustineP> Chris: I am in that subgroup.
14:53:57 <JustineP> Lisa: Did I miss you on the list of invitees?
14:54:09 <JustineP> Chris: I'm on the list.
14:54:17 <LisaSeemanKest> q?
14:55:10 <johnkirkwood> where is it located?
14:55:11 <Jennie> q+
14:55:14 <JustineP> Lisa: We wanted to have different user groups review Content Usable and provide feedback if anything was missing. The group started to draft an email and created a tracking spreadsheet, then stopped.
14:55:44 <JustineP> Jennie: Same question as John K., as I know of a group that might be interested but would need to have an orientation session.
14:56:30 <JustineP> ...I can handle the walkthrough for the group, and they might have valuable feedback.
14:56:37 <Fazio> q+
14:56:38 <JustineP> Lisa: That works.
14:56:48 <JustineP> Jennie: If you add link, I'll contact them to see if they are interested.
14:56:50 <Jennie> ack Jennie
14:56:56 <johnkirkwood_> johnkirkwood_ has joined #coga
14:57:13 <LisaSeemanKest> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RPD4pRLngZslj-KsRBlxknECCe0q1cDIx1eo0XyFGks/edit#gid=0
14:57:40 <JustineP> David: I received feedback from someone that was trying to teach people with developmental disabilities do user testing. They found the document difficult to understand.
14:58:28 <JustineP> Lisa: We need to capture that feedback, I'm also hearing that they would like a document covering how to do user testing.
14:59:49 <JustineP> David: Feedback was received from someone without a cognitive disability, not an expert in accessibility. Found it even more difficult to try to teach people with cognitive disabilities to do user testing.
15:00:00 <JustineP> Lisa: That's important feedback that should either be submitted as an issue or sent to the list.
15:00:19 <LisaSeemanKest> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DoohB2-tREjXx7PF6sCi3jLt6OrjE1ciAb0Dcb7FgyU/edit
15:00:40 <JustineP> ...Regarding recruiting, we need feedback on whether or not the patterns were helpful.
15:01:00 <Jennie> q+
15:01:05 <JustineP> ...Or if we've missed specific user needs. Maybe we should create a video...
15:01:40 <JustineP> Jennie: I wonder if we should involve outreach group.
15:01:59 <JustineP> Lisa: Assigning to Kris Anne.
15:02:05 <Rain> I'm going to drop as well to get the Silver Help meeting started
15:02:20 <Jennie> Have a good week everyone!
15:03:08 <JustineP> Lisa: Let's revisit in two weeks.
15:03:41 <JustineP> rrsagent, make minutes
15:03:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/07/08-coga-minutes.html JustineP
15:05:04 <JustineP> zakim, please part
15:05:04 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Jennie, Rain, JustineP, JohnRochford, cweidner, AbiJ, Fazio, stevelee, johnkirkwood
15:05:04 <Zakim> Zakim has left #coga
15:06:46 <JustineP> rrsagent, please part
15:06:46 <RRSAgent> I see no action items