14:52:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
14:52:48 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/07/02-rdf-star-irc
14:52:51 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:52:52 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), pchampin
14:52:58 <pchampin> meeting: RDF-star
14:53:01 <pchampin> chair: pchampin
14:53:15 <pchampin> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star/2021Jul/0000.html
14:53:15 <agendabot> clear agenda
14:53:15 <agendabot> agenda+ Announcements and newcomers
14:53:15 <agendabot> agenda+ Open actions
14:53:15 <agendabot> agenda+ Summer schedule
14:53:15 <agendabot> agenda+ CG report
14:53:17 <agendabot> agenda+ WG draft charter
14:53:20 <agendabot> agenda+ Open-ended discussions
14:54:59 <pchampin> date: 2 July 2021
14:55:10 <pchampin> Previous meeting: https://w3c.github.io/rdf-star/Minutes/2021-06-18.html
14:55:10 <pchampin> Next meeting: https://w3c.github.io/rdf-star/Minutes/2021-07-16.html
14:55:43 <pchampin> q?
14:57:25 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-star
14:59:06 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
15:00:04 <james> james has joined #rdf-star
15:00:40 <TallTed> TallTed has joined #rdf-star
15:00:53 <thomas> thomas has joined #rdf-star
15:00:56 <ora> ora has joined #rdf-star
15:01:01 <ora> present+
15:01:13 <AndyS> present+
15:02:52 <james> present+
15:03:12 <gkellogg> present+
15:03:19 <TallTed> present+
15:03:48 <thomas> present+
15:03:59 <pchampin> present+
15:04:24 <gkellogg> present+ Jay Gray
15:04:51 <AndyS> scribe: AndyS
15:05:01 <pchampin> zakim, next agendum
15:05:01 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Announcements and newcomers -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:06:11 <AndyS> Jay: using RDF and related tech to create electronic labels (food drugs, cosmetics, household chemicals)
15:06:38 <AndyS> ... can see along the supply chain as it has labels-in-labels.
15:07:44 <AndyS> ... looking the RDF-star work to see if it will relate to what we plan to deploy soon
15:07:47 <pchampin> q?
15:07:52 <james> q+
15:07:57 <pchampin> ack james
15:08:15 <AndyS> james: link?
15:08:52 <AndyS> james: labels-in-labels : is it by inclusion or by reference.
15:10:13 <AndyS> Jay: large graphs being updated (Shex and SHACL on ingestion). Generates references (may be in (solid) pods).
15:10:17 <pchampin> q?
15:10:54 <AndyS> pchampin: Announcement -- 3rd public draft published
15:11:14 <pchampin> q?
15:11:15 <AndyS> ... all contributors now properly registered in the CG.
15:11:26 <pchampin> q?
15:11:37 <pchampin> zakim, close this item
15:11:37 <Zakim> agendum 1 closed
15:11:38 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:11:38 <Zakim> 2. Open actions [from agendabot]
15:11:47 <rivettp> rivettp has joined #rdf-star
15:12:02 <pchampin> q?
15:12:08 <pchampin> zakim, close this item
15:12:08 <Zakim> I do not know what agendum had been taken up, pchampin
15:12:11 <AndyS> pchampin: none :-)
15:12:20 <pchampin> zakim, close item 2
15:12:20 <Zakim> agendum 2, Open actions, closed
15:12:21 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:12:21 <Zakim> 3. Summer schedule [from agendabot]
15:12:24 <AndyS> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3Aaction
15:13:01 <rivettp> present+
15:13:44 <AndyS> pchampin: Can make next call in 2 weeks time. Then time away, back in August.
15:14:03 <pchampin> q?
15:14:10 <AndyS> ... common practice: gap and reconvene end Aug/early Sept
15:15:06 <james> +1
15:15:07 <AndyS> pchampin: work areas -- charter and vocab section
15:15:08 <thomas> +1
15:15:12 <ora> +1
15:15:15 <gkellogg> +1
15:15:16 <AndyS> Who is here 16/July?
15:15:18 <rivettp> +1
15:15:23 <TallTed> +1
15:15:24 <AndyS> +1
15:15:26 <pchampin> +1
15:15:33 <pchampin> <jay> +1
15:15:35 <AndyS> Jay: +1
15:17:01 <pchampin> PROPOSAL: cancel all calls after July 16, and reconvene on Sep 3rd
15:17:12 <AndyS> +1
15:17:14 <james> 0
15:17:20 <pchampin> +1
15:17:23 <gkellogg> +1
15:17:34 <rivettp> +1
15:17:40 <thomas> 0
15:17:52 <TallTed> +
15:17:56 <TallTed> +0
15:18:12 <pchampin> APPROVED: cancel all calls after July 16, and reconvene on Sep 3rd
15:18:20 <pchampin> q?
15:18:39 <pchampin> zakim, close item 3
15:18:39 <Zakim> agendum 3, Summer schedule, closed
15:18:40 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:18:40 <Zakim> 4. CG report [from agendabot]
15:19:33 <AndyS> pchampin: Vocabulary
15:19:42 <pchampin> scribe+
15:20:08 <pchampin> AndyS: suggesting we describe "embedded triples" as "quoted triples"
15:20:33 <pchampin> ... we have used that term on occasions; also used in N3 (quoted formula)
15:20:54 <thomas> q+
15:21:09 <pchampin> ... Too late to change "embeded" to "quoted"
15:21:26 <pchampin> scribe-
15:21:32 <pchampin> ack thomas
15:21:54 <AndyS> thomas: +ve: useful term but -ve not what it looks like
15:21:58 <gkellogg> q+
15:22:14 <pchampin> ack gkellogg
15:22:14 <james> q+
15:22:31 <TallTed> Grammar remains the same, but comprehension would rise dramatically.
15:23:07 <pchampin> q+
15:23:30 <pchampin> ack james
15:23:30 <AndyS> AndyS: wholesale change is a change to grammar e.g. embTriple
15:24:13 <AndyS> james: either replace usaes or be careful to mention in one place "behaves as ..."
15:24:18 <TallTed> q+
15:24:23 <pchampin> ack pchampin
15:24:30 <AndyS> s/usaes/uses/
15:24:51 <ora> q+
15:25:25 <AndyS> pchampin: non-normative language
15:25:44 <AndyS> ... possibility: "quoted" => not asserted.
15:25:45 <AndyS> q+
15:26:01 <james> q+
15:26:24 <pchampin> ack TallTed
15:27:38 <AndyS> TallTed: I find "unasserted" useful - use unasserted==quoted throughout.
15:28:19 <pchampin> ack ora
15:28:50 <AndyS> ora: with strong opinion, now is the time to change terminology - we are not REC track yet.
15:29:09 <thomas> s/with/without
15:29:11 <pchampin> ack AndyS
15:29:20 <TallTed> s/I find "unasserted" useful - use unasserted==quoted throughout/I find "quoted" useful - communicates unasserted better than "embedded" -- and I would do so throughout/
15:29:49 <ora> s/without strong opinion/without strong opinion on what specific words we use
15:30:16 <TallTed> q+
15:30:18 <thomas> the embedded triple is unasserted AND quoted
15:31:37 <ora> q+
15:32:38 <rivettp> we want to capture "not necessarily asserted" which is a bit of a mouthful
15:32:43 <pchampin> ack james
15:33:38 <thomas> q+
15:34:19 <AndyS> james: this qualification makes it complicated - quoted works, "assertion" has extra language to say it is the local usage intended.
15:34:19 <thomas> quoted to me refers to referential opacity, so is not about assertion
15:34:38 <pchampin> ack TallTed
15:35:16 <AndyS> TallTed: grammar term embTriple will cause embedded in people's mind.
15:35:23 <pchampin> q+
15:35:52 <AndyS> ...challenge is communicate and express the effect of the <<>>
15:36:04 <AndyS> ... need care
15:36:16 <pchampin> ack ora
15:37:10 <AndyS> ora: original RDF - similar issues - reification examples helped.
15:37:14 <pchampin> ack thomas
15:37:40 <AndyS> q+
15:38:13 <pchampin> ack AndyS
15:38:15 <TallTed> +1000 examples ... and it's helpful to build later examples upon/from earlier examples
15:38:27 <pchampin> scribe+
15:38:56 <pchampin> AndyS: suggest to turn this into some action, to see what would be the impact
15:39:08 <pchampin> ... can work on it during the summer
15:39:21 <pchampin> scribe-
15:39:26 <pchampin> ack pchampin
15:40:19 <james> q+
15:40:36 <pchampin> ack james
15:41:14 <AndyS> pchampin: Notions -- :s :p :o and <<:s :p :o>> -- unchanged.
15:41:22 <gkellogg> q+
15:41:29 <thomas> q+
15:41:39 <AndyS> james - "quoted" works better than "embedded".
15:41:39 <TallTed> "embedded" is not clearly distinguished from "asserted" nor "unasserted"
15:41:46 <pchampin> ack gkellogg
15:41:59 <AndyS> james: "quoted" works better than "embedded".
15:43:11 <ora> q+
15:43:25 <AndyS> gkellogg: quoted - and may elsewhere be asserted.
15:43:47 <pchampin> ack thomas
15:43:52 <AndyS> ... "embedded" keep but "quoted" is more accurate to the way people think about it.
15:44:22 <AndyS> thomas: now prefer "quoted"
15:44:36 <pchampin> q?
15:44:39 <pchampin> ack ora
15:45:08 <AndyS> ora: like "quoted" and it's like lisp
15:46:08 <AndyS> gkellog: yes - there is a quoted triple there.
15:46:21 <AndyS> s/gkellog/gkellogg/
15:46:28 <thomas> q+
15:46:58 <pchampin> ack thomas
15:47:48 <AndyS> thomas: "embedded" when written, "quoted" in abstract syntax.
15:48:45 <AndyS> ACTION: AndyS: cintune issue already opened
15:48:47 <pchampin> q?
15:49:00 <pchampin> zakim, open agendum 5
15:49:00 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- WG draft charter -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:49:09 <AndyS> s/cintune/continue/
15:49:13 <AndyS> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg-charter/issues/1
15:50:26 <AndyS> pchampin: several SPARQL RECs to update.
15:50:38 <AndyS> ... needs updating to RDF 1.1
15:51:01 <AndyS> ... makes the scope of RDF-star WG much larger
15:51:55 <AndyS> gkellogg: split makes a coordination problem. Better is one WG with subgroups.
15:52:12 <AndyS> ... need to coordinate with JSON-LD WG (maintainence)
15:52:26 <AndyS> TallTed: agree.
15:52:59 <ora> q+
15:53:36 <pchampin> ack ora
15:54:18 <AndyS> ora: RDF / RDFS turned out to be not the way to work. There was a big overlap.
15:54:26 <pchampin> q+
15:55:23 <AndyS> jay: wikidata is significant to us (company).
15:56:08 <ora> q+
15:56:19 <pchampin> ack pchampin
15:56:40 <AndyS> pchampin: yes, stability is important
15:57:05 <AndyS> q+
15:57:50 <TallTed> makes some sense ... alignment to an implementation or deployment (e.g., Wikidata, which has broken from the standard in some significant ways), however, as opposed to alignment to a *standard*, less sense
15:57:50 <pchampin> ack ora
15:57:57 <TallTed> q+
15:58:13 <AndyS> ora: I agree that stability is significant and important.
16:00:00 <pchampin> ack AndyS
16:00:08 <pchampin> scribe+
16:00:18 <pchampin> AndyS: I assumed it would be one group, organizing itself as it wants
16:00:39 <pchampin> ... Once upon the time, there was an RDF coordination group
16:00:59 <pchampin> ... Of course, we must hope enough people turn up.
16:01:23 <pchampin> ... There is a danger a scope creep.
16:02:10 <pchampin> ... The language of the charter must keep the scope focused.
16:02:51 <ora> q+
16:02:54 <pchampin> ack TallTed
16:04:35 <pchampin> ack ora
16:05:42 <ora> bye
16:05:46 <AndyS> zakim, please leave us
16:05:46 <Zakim> I don't understand 'please leave us', AndyS
16:05:52 <thomas> ora?
16:06:00 <AndyS> rrsagent, please excuse us
16:06:00 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2021/07/02-rdf-star-actions.rdf :
16:06:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: AndyS: cintune issue already opened [1]
16:06:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2021/07/02-rdf-star-irc#T15-48-45