13:25:47 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #epub
13:25:47 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/07/02-epub-irc
13:25:48 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:25:49 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), ivan
13:26:05 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2021-07-02: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-epub-wg/2021Jun/0052.html
13:26:06 <ivan> Chair: dauwhe
13:26:06 <ivan> Date: 2021-07-02
13:26:06 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-epub-wg/2021Jun/0052.html
13:26:06 <ivan> Meeting: EPUB 3 Working Group Telco
13:26:06 <ivan> Regrets+ wendy, tzviya, matthew
13:54:57 <dauwhe> present+
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13:58:31 <JF> agenda?
13:58:45 <avneeshsingh> present+
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13:59:32 <wendyreid> present+
13:59:38 <MasakazuKitahara> present+
13:59:46 <ivan> present+
13:59:53 <ivan> present+ JF
14:00:04 <ivan> present+ billk
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14:00:20 <toshiakikoike> present+
14:00:31 <ivan> present+ avneeshsingh
14:00:32 <romain> present+
14:00:48 <ivan> present+ rdeltour
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14:01:41 <ivan> present+ brady
14:01:44 <BenSchroeter> present+
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14:01:51 <BenSchroeter> scribe+
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14:02:02 <duga> present+
14:02:05 <ivan> present+ CharlesL
14:02:19 <JF> agenda?
14:03:34 <BenSchroeter> Dave: Garth Conboy, a member of this working group, passed away. He was a giant in our industry and instrumental in creating the EPUB spec. He will be sorely missed.
14:04:20 <BenSchroeter> ...submitted a pull request for a dedication to Garth in the EPUB 3 spec.
14:05:31 <BenSchroeter> Bill: Garth led the charge for creating a standard amongst competitors. That is indicative of his generous spirit and dedication to community.
14:05:45 <ivan> q+
14:05:51 <dauwhe> ack iv
14:07:22 <BenSchroeter> Ivan: Garth was instrumental in the transition of EPUB from IDPF to W3C, and an omnipresent contributor who spread happiness and good will.
14:08:50 <BenSchroeter> Tzviya: When I sent the announcement yesterday, it struck me how many people Garth impacted through his work. He looked on the bright side even when sick.
14:09:06 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino has joined #epub
14:09:19 <gpellegrino> present+
14:09:44 <BenSchroeter> Wendy: Will forever be grateful for Garth teaching me how to chair, and to always allow room for fun and optimism even on dark days.
14:10:08 <BenSchroeter> Bill: Had a knack for leading without appearing to lead.
14:10:42 <BenSchroeter> Charles: I loved his spirit and how he always made Brady do stuff.
14:11:30 <BenSchroeter> Brady: Have worked with Garth through four organizations. This is a difficult time.
14:12:44 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1681
14:13:00 <ivan> Topic: @issue 1681
14:13:52 <ivan> scribeje, @pr 1725
14:14:05 <ivan> scribejs, @pr 1725
14:14:20 <ivan> q+
14:14:30 <Hadrien> Hadrien has joined #epub
14:14:37 <dauwhe> ack iv
14:14:43 <BenSchroeter> Dave: What more needs to happen or can happen in the spec for root-relative paths?
14:14:49 <Hadrien> present+
14:15:40 <BenSchroeter> Ivan: one problem we need to address is that we have a problem with iBooks and others that rely on Adobe cade, namely that they rely on a specific way of organizing the files, which is not in the standard.
14:16:03 <wendyreid> s/cade/ADE/
14:16:43 <dauwhe> q?
14:17:24 <dauwhe> q+
14:17:41 <BenSchroeter> ...Matt's test was done according to the standard, but iBooks and others get it wrong. We can either acknowledge that problem as a warning and keep the standard as is (iBooks doesn't conform), or we reverse-engineer and put into standard a restricted version of how files can be organized, in order to conform with iBooks. We need to decide if this will harm current eBooks.
14:17:45 <romain> q+
14:17:51 <dauwhe> q-
14:18:23 <dauwhe> ack rom
14:18:31 <JF> Q+ to ask if one of the consequences of that is to create multiple versions of the same book?
14:18:35 <BenSchroeter> ...I personally would hate to put restrictions in the standard, but that's just me
14:19:31 <dauwhe> q+
14:19:34 <BenSchroeter> Romain: the test was done with valid ePub with shared resources - there is still the issue of root-relative URL paths and paths that would go outside the container. I think we need the spec to address that.
14:19:52 <BenSchroeter> ...some kind of language defining the root is likely necessary.
14:20:18 <dauwhe> ack JF
14:20:18 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to ask if one of the consequences of that is to create multiple versions of the same book?
14:20:21 <BenSchroeter> ...and review interoperability with reading systems.
14:20:51 <ivan> q+
14:20:54 <dauwhe> q?
14:21:17 <BenSchroeter> John Folliot: Is an uninteded consequence that a publisher would have to create two versions, one for iBooks and another for other reading systems?
14:21:38 <JF> s/John Folliot/JF
14:22:01 <romain> q+
14:22:10 <romain> ack dauwhe
14:22:26 <BenSchroeter> Dave: I don't see huge problems around interoperability becuase EPUBs are consistent with folder structure, generally.
14:22:47 <dauwhe> ack iv
14:23:46 <BenSchroeter> Ivan: Whatever works for iBooks works for others - but there are perfectly valid ePubs that iBooks doesn't take.
14:24:51 <dauwhe> ack rom
14:24:56 <BenSchroeter> ...We have decided that path URLs shouldn't be used, and paths shouldn't go outside the package. We need to make this clear in the documentation but there is not a fundamental technical problem with this.
14:25:31 <BenSchroeter> Romain: these are edge cases, we don't see this problem often if ever.
14:26:06 <ivan> q+
14:26:11 <BenSchroeter> ...What we have is a recommendation for authors, but we need a recommendation for reading systems on how to process URLs.
14:26:31 <dauwhe> ack iv
14:26:55 <BenSchroeter> ...How should a reading system deal when authors don't follow recommendation.
14:28:08 <BenSchroeter> Ivan: it would be helpful to have a clearly-worded proposal for reading systems. Requesting Romain's help with this.
14:28:19 <dauwhe> q?
14:29:00 <Hadrien> q+
14:29:06 <dauwhe> ack H
14:29:14 <BenSchroeter> Dave: everyone seems to agree that having ../ etc. to outside the package is not a good practice.
14:30:09 <BenSchroeter> Hadrien: from a reading system perspective, they need to resolve URIs, and expose the HTML resource (or any resource) to web view.
14:30:50 <BenSchroeter> ...reading systems have different ways of doing this, but you need to get the web view to do wihat you want, and how this is achieved can impact what we are discussing.
14:31:16 <BenSchroeter> Ivan: What precisely should the recommendation in the reading system spec be to cover all implementations?
14:31:45 <ivan> q+
14:31:48 <BenSchroeter> Hadrien: we don't know how each RS works behind the scenes, we can only speculate.
14:32:02 <dauwhe> ack iv
14:33:12 <BenSchroeter> Ivan: If we put something in the spec, it's up to RS how to implement
14:33:24 <BenSchroeter> ...we don't have to define that.
14:34:38 <BenSchroeter> ...Whatever we do, the author of an EPUB should have a clear mental model of what's happening. The RS implementation is not under the author's influence. If we are saying EPUb is a website in a box, we should be able to clearly define the root, and stop there.
14:35:38 <BenSchroeter> Hadrien: On the web, we don't think about files and root containers. For reading systems, we are deciding how an EPUB behaves. So leary of this conceptual approach.
14:36:32 <BenSchroeter> Dave: we are really talking about edge cases here. Hoping that we can build some tests based on the write-up and what we are trying to achieve.
14:36:49 <ivan> q+
14:37:07 <BenSchroeter> ...hoping we can get clear enough to cover our edge cases without restricting RS implementation.
14:37:48 <BenSchroeter> Hadrien: difficult to test everywhere - gets tricky when you have to consider different CSS, etc
14:38:46 <BenSchroeter> Dave: let's get some proposals down with Romain's help, and get Matt to take a look at them, and proceed from there.
14:38:50 <dauwhe> ack iv
14:39:40 <BenSchroeter> Ivan: Must have a clear statement somewhere whether we intend to restrict EPUB content and define organization of EPUB package.
14:40:27 <BenSchroeter> Topic: accessibility review
14:41:31 <gpellegrino> q+
14:42:03 <BenSchroeter> Ivan: Gregorio has reviewed the document and added questions. Matt and I have examined these and responded. The editors can clarify and clean up most of these.
14:42:21 <JF> Q+
14:42:22 <BenSchroeter> ...We are supposed to go through a horizontal review for a11y
14:42:46 <dauwhe> ack gp
14:42:48 <JF> FWIW, I am a member of the APA
14:43:51 <Hadrien> q+
14:44:16 <BenSchroeter> Gregorio: only issue might be about fixed layout accessibility, but I also want to read the RS specs to see if there are issues there, e.g. when RS ingests Nav file, how does it deal with language attributes - we have to make sure these are not lost
14:44:52 <BenSchroeter> ...also for the checklist, many of the requirements are on the user agent side (like display transformability)
14:44:59 <ivan> q+
14:45:06 <dauwhe> ack JF
14:45:10 <BenSchroeter> ...Overview looks good, just need to review RS specs
14:45:50 <avneeshsingh> q+
14:46:04 <BenSchroeter> JF: to request a horizontal review, send an email to APA review
14:47:40 <dauwhe> ack Ha
14:48:22 <BenSchroeter> Hadrien: for TOCs, RS will get rid of all markup (including lang attribute)
14:48:41 <BenSchroeter> ...some even ignore heirarchy and display TOC as a flat list
14:49:51 <dauwhe> ack iv
14:50:21 <JF> +1 to Ivan
14:50:30 <BenSchroeter> Ivan: we should make it so that our documents themselves are also accessible.
14:50:34 <BenSchroeter> +1
14:51:05 <dauwhe> ack avn
14:52:27 <BenSchroeter> Avneesh: horizontal review from Gregorio was first public working draft to identify problems early on. Proper (official) pre-CR horizontal review will be done by APA around October.
14:53:01 <dauwhe> q?
14:53:36 <BenSchroeter> ...ensuring accessibility for our documents will also ensure they are machine readable. Don't need a formal check but we should do it.
14:54:01 <BenSchroeter> Topic: summer break?
14:54:46 <BenSchroeter> Ivan: I'll be out a couple weeks in July
14:55:23 <BenSchroeter> Dave: We have a lot of work that we can do outside weekly calls, like test writing and various reviews
14:56:36 <BenSchroeter> ...suggest we discuss in Chairs call and come up with a schedule
14:57:41 <gpellegrino> In Italy we are in vacation in August :)
14:57:46 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:57:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/07/02-epub-minutes.html ivan
14:58:08 <BenSchroeter> Dave: This has been a challenging week, so thanks everyone for participating.
14:58:32 <CharlesL> CharlesL has left #epub
14:58:33 <ivan> zakim, end meeting
14:58:33 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been dauwhe, avneeshsingh, wendyreid, MasakazuKitahara, ivan, JF, billk, toshiakikoike, romain, rdeltour, brady, BenSchroeter, duga, CharlesL,
14:58:36 <Zakim> ... gpellegrino, Hadrien
14:58:36 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:58:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/07/02-epub-minutes.html Zakim
14:58:38 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, ivan; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
14:58:42 <Zakim> Zakim has left #epub
14:59:57 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
14:59:57 <RRSAgent> I see no action items