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MMC introducing agenda 13:08:33 TOPIC: ThingDescription 13:08:50 i|Thing|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2021-06-online-f2f/2021-06-30-WoT-F2F-Opening-McCool.pdf Opening slides| 13:08:58 SK: we have several parts to discuss 13:08:59 s/ThingD/Thing D/ 13:09:39 ... roundtripping, TD 1.1, ThingModel, 13:10:10 ... TM overwriting limitations 13:10:21 ... TM composition 13:10:30 ... TD Validation 13:10:41 victor has joined #wot 13:10:43 ... Sync vs async actions 13:11:08 SUBTOPIC: TD RDF Roundtripping 13:12:54 present+ Ryuichi_Matsukura 13:13:21 VC: Activity on GitHub ... e.g., issue 1168 13:13:29 .. submitted PRs 13:13:41 ... keeping security definitions in RDF 13:14:34 ... another PR#1169 about indexing 13:14:49 ... a easy fix was submitted 13:15:27 https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1168 13:15:31 https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1077 13:16:13 ... thanks to those fixes I closed a number of issues 13:16:32 ... the changes are only in JSON-LD context 13:17:43 ... roundtripping should be possible now 13:18:04 q+ 13:18:13 ... i will write test-cases in near future to check whether everything is covered 13:18:28 SK: Great news 13:18:56 ... I suggest we should go ahead merging 13:19:01 s/1168/1168 PR 1168 - fix: add wotsec context on securityDefinitions property/ 13:19:25 MMC: does it also solve rendering issues with security? 13:19:32 s/1077/1077 PR 1077 - Extend JSON-LD context to allow for round-tripping to/from N-Triples/ 13:19:37 VC: I think this is a different topic 13:19:47 MMC: Agree with merging 13:19:53 ... move forward from here 13:19:57 s/^https/-> https/ 13:19:58 s/^https/-> https/ 13:20:07 rrsagent, make log public 13:20:11 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:20:11 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/30-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:21:13 ... PR#1168 has IPR issues 13:22:17 Kaz: is it just a bug fix? 13:22:25 VC: Yes, would say so 13:23:00 ... not sure if company logilab providing fix is W3C member? 13:23:43 MMC: It seems more than a typo fix 13:24:21 ... does invited experts status help? 13:24:38 cris has joined #wot 13:24:44 VC: the change is very simple.. one line 13:24:56 SK: one liner should not be an issue 13:25:25 ... the rest is auto-generated .. so I don't see any issue 13:25:29 Kaz: Okay, makes sense 13:26:18 ... marked the PR as non substantial 13:26:38 ... PR can be merged now 13:26:48 but again, please make sure @@@ 13:27:10 s/@@@/non-participants should not create a PR other than editorial changes :)/ 13:27:15 VC: Great, thanks --> merged 13:27:40 ... merging PR#1077 also 13:27:51 citrullin has joined #wot 13:28:05 VC: Michael, can you point me to the issues that still need to be fixed 13:28:13 s/merged/PR 1168 has been merged/ 13:28:13 MMC: will check and let you know 13:28:32 present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi 13:28:44 present+ Philipp_Blum 13:28:45 VC: Some minor JSON-LD issues are still open 13:29:11 MMC: Issue#915 solved also? 13:29:39 VC: Right, not sure if everything is fixed 13:29:47 ... have to do a proper review 13:30:57 i|Right|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/915 Issue 915 - Vocabulary term "scheme" not defined when used inside securityDefinitions| 13:31:02 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:31:02 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/30-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:31:17 SK: Great, thanks VC 13:31:28 ... helps a lot 13:31:52 MMC: helps for discovery also ... 13:32:08 ... e.g., relaxing requirements 13:32:19 Chair: Sebastian/McCool 13:32:37 VC: Thanks goes to LogiLab 13:33:43 SUBTOPIC: Whats new in TD 1.1 13:33:47 I'll have to leave now, sorry for not staying longer. 13:34:11 SK: Please check FPWD 1.1. released in March 13:34:35 ... some more aspects: 13:34:44 ... TD Canonicalization 13:34:56 ... work done by McCool 13:35:28 ... we also have a first command line tool to do canonicalization 13:35:29 -> https://www.w3.org/TR/2021/WD-wot-thing-description11-20210607/ latest WD of TD 1.1 13:35:56 https://github.com/fatadel/canon-td 13:36:19 q+ 13:36:29 SK: some parts might still be missing 13:36:36 s/March/June/ 13:36:51 q- 13:36:53 Kaz: w.r.t. to working draft.. it is June .. not March 13:36:54 ack s 13:37:02 SK: other news 13:37:25 ... links container has a new member "sizes" 13:37:32 ... e.g., for icons 13:38:15 SK: new also: ThingModel namespace 13:38:36 q+ 13:39:00 ... at the moment still intermediary namespace 13:39:56 ... tm:required is available in TD instances 13:40:09 MMC: TM context defined? 13:40:22 SK: Yes, in in TD context 13:41:01 MMC: Not sure about the correctness of other namespaces .. like security 13:41:26 ... misses prefixes? 13:41:35 SK: Yes, MMC please check 13:41:59 CA: What does it take to make these links referencable? 13:42:00 q? 13:42:14 ... real links are easier to handle 13:42:33 MMC: related issue for validation 13:42:50 ack m 13:43:07 ... we should start doing this correctly 13:43:41 mm: in particular, for validation, would use useful if ns URLs can be used to fetch ontology and also validation files ( 13:43:44 ... can we direct them to actual servers? 13:43:50 ... eg JSON Schema, SHACL 13:43:55 SK: Questions goes to Kaz... I think 13:44:17 ... could also use raw github link 13:44:32 q+ 13:44:38 MMC: TTL file could be default 13:45:01 ... use content negotiation for others? 13:45:29 SK: Simple forward could be done, right? 13:45:31 MMC: Yes 13:45:46 .. but still handle different files.. e.g. for SHACL 13:46:04 q? 13:46:06 ack m 13:46:12 q+ 13:46:21 Kaz: I mentioned in the past that we could add another redirection 13:46:54 ... should be careful about the scheme 13:47:04 MMC: maybe use a convention 13:47:19 ... also used for extensions 13:48:09 ack k 13:48:14 ack c 13:48:19 CA: we could even use github pages 13:49:23 SK: not sure about the benefits 13:49:33 CA: shorter URL than raw github link 13:49:58 MMC: I have the concern about github pages links... 13:50:30 CA: +1 for creating issue to discuss further 13:50:42 .... github pages is just a static webserver 13:50:57 ... can also use W3C server.. both works fine for me 13:50:58 s/github pages links/GitHub URIs/ 13:51:11 s/use github pages/use GitHub URIs/ 13:51:15 https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1181 13:52:08 q? 13:52:10 s/https/-> https/ 13:52:25 s/1181/1181 Issue 1181 - Validation of extensions and fetching from context URLs/ 13:52:31 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:52:31 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/30-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:52:47 SK: Those should be it for *new* features 13:52:57 SUBTOPIC: ThingModels 13:53:17 s/ThingModels/Thing Models/ 13:53:23 SK: should talk about overwriting existing definitions 13:53:53 ... e.g., property dim typed as integer 13:54:54 ... we can refer to this dim definition ... overriding integer type ..e.g. change maximum from 100 to 120 13:55:03 ... i think this should not be allowed 13:55:19 mlagally has joined #wot 13:55:45 ... what about changing type integer to number 13:55:49 ... also not Okay 13:56:16 ... what about extending by limiting the integer range 13:56:27 ... this is OKay 13:56:54 ... we need to be clear in the specification what is allowed 13:57:31 q+ 13:57:37 ... proof could be done by validation.. validating against both definitions 13:57:58 ... I plan to work on this aspect 13:58:13 q? 13:59:11 ML: Basic question: what are the boxes in the slides? UML inheritance ? 14:00:02 SK: it is just an example how to use TMs 14:00:21 ... by using ref 14:00:50 ... examples are still TMs 14:01:25 ML: This leads to multiple inheritance, right? 14:01:47 SK: We only allow one super-class 14:02:06 ... ref can point to multiple other TMs 14:02:26 ML: What about naming conflicts? 14:03:05 SK: does not happen 14:03:46 q= 14:03:48 q+ 14:03:50 ... we point to a dedicated url 14:04:19 ack mlagally 14:04:27 ML: I see 14:05:18 SK: tm:ref helps to reduce redundancy 14:05:39 MMC: Do we allow multiple references ? 14:05:52 ... self-reference? 14:06:32 ... open up problems and opportunities 14:06:46 SK: We do not tackle this yet in the spec 14:07:15 MMC: Maybe we should currently limit it to full URL 14:07:39 q+ 14:08:05 SK: Yes, should talk about it 14:08:30 ack m 14:08:31 ack d 14:08:35 q? 14:09:09 DP: reminds me to the issue in TD... pointing to global definitions 14:09:11 q? 14:09:27 SK: Yes, we should think about the topics 14:09:53 q+ 14:10:13 ... original question: shall we forbid the first 2 examples as sketched in the very beginning? 14:10:39 ... SDF has the same restrictions 14:10:45 ... I guess Vorto also 14:11:06 ML: I suggest we keep in mind versioning 14:11:40 ... it could happen that the initial type/range is changed 14:11:56 q+ 14:12:12 ... pointer to keep in mind 14:12:23 SK: solved by the URL? 14:12:45 ... updating content of *same* URL could cause this problem 14:13:19 MMC: informative note .. about changing base classes 14:13:23 ML: +1 14:13:37 MMC: Url should have version in it 14:13:57 ... provide some best practices 14:15:22 q? 14:15:27 ack m 14:15:28 ack mlagally 14:15:31 ack m 14:15:32 ack m 14:16:00 SK: Would like to move on to TM composition 14:16:16 ... how to model things that consist of other things 14:16:38 q+ 14:16:54 ... e.g., traffic light .. composed of 3 lights (red, yellow, green) 14:17:19 ... see issue#1177 14:17:50 ... proposal is to use links container 14:18:06 ... using "rel" like "subthing" 14:18:39 q+ 14:19:10 ... do you think relation type works? 14:19:31 q- 14:19:35 q+ 14:19:48 q+ 14:20:01 MMC: semantically compatible with SDF? 14:20:11 ... should make sure this is the case 14:20:23 i|proposal is|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1177 Issue 1177 - Using composition in favor of inheritance in Thing Models?| 14:21:39 ... sdfObject 14:22:56 ... transforming from SDF should be possible 14:23:16 SK: Will study it 14:23:30 ... alignment makes sense 14:25:21 q? 14:25:26 ack McCool 14:25:54 ML: Suggestion by McCool with sub-components is useful 14:26:18 ... terminology ... "subthing" seems not very useful 14:26:28 ... what about "component" 14:26:36 SK: This was just a proposal 14:26:45 ... we should check IANA 14:26:59 ... "collection" or "item" could be used 14:27:30 ML: Makes sense to align with IANA rel types 14:27:31 q? 14:27:33 ack mlagally 14:27:33 ack m 14:27:43 CA: I like the link approach 14:28:09 ... I am a bit puzzled about the expectations 14:28:23 ... what are we looking at? 14:28:40 SK: Had a similar question.. how would the TD look like 14:29:05 ... I would expect a selfContained TD 14:29:35 ... but this is the next step 14:29:48 ... no answer yet 14:29:57 CA: I see the same options 14:30:08 q? 14:30:08 ... everything or other smaller TDs 14:30:11 ack c 14:30:11 ack cris 14:30:26 https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1177 14:30:34 SK: please also follow the issue 14:31:48 TOPIC: TD Validation 14:32:49 https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1181 14:32:50 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:32:50 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/30-wot-minutes.html kaz 14:33:24 s/TOPIC:/subtopic:/ 14:33:26 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:33:26 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/30-wot-minutes.html kaz 14:33:36 MMC: created issue about validation extensions 14:33:46 ... no formal way to validate extensions 14:34:06 I will be back in 5min 14:34:19 ... 2 approches 14:34:31 s/I will be back in 5min// 14:34:37 ... contentType 14:34:47 q+ 14:35:00 ... using suffix following convention 14:35:23 MMC: should look at SHACL and how it is done there 14:35:23 i|created|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1181 Issue 1181 - Validation of extensions and fetching from context URLs| 14:36:41 CA: Tried to use schema for binding ...schema including TD schema? 14:36:52 ... in JSON schema this is not that easy 14:37:18 MMC: we could also have multiple extensions 14:38:35 ... schemas for extensions should be simple 14:39:00 ... we have to study this problem 14:39:53 ... extension validation will be optional 14:41:26 SUBTOPIC: Sync vs. async actions 14:41:29 q+ 14:41:35 ack c 14:41:46 MMC: where should it go? 14:41:51 ... profile spec? 14:42:02 ML: First we need to discuss about the need 14:42:12 q? 14:42:19 s/about the/the/ 14:42:30 MMC: Status of action 14:42:35 ... cancelling action 14:43:23 ML: I would need some more time to discuss this... I have 10 slides 14:43:48 MMC: Okay... let's use the time now 14:44:07 ML: Action is similar to RPC 14:44:16 s/Sync vs. async actions/WoT Action Model/ 14:44:41 ... input .. wait time ... response 14:45:06 q+ 14:45:13 q- 14:45:29 ... execution states of an action: received > dispatched > success/expired/failed/unknown 14:45:49 MMC: what about "blocked" ? 14:46:14 ML: could have that from received... 14:46:19 ack m 14:46:45 ML: Action status may contain these like "RECEIVED", "DSIPATCHED", ... 14:47:16 ... we know whether action is completed 14:47:26 ML: long running actions 14:47:52 ... first confirms .. no result yet 14:48:06 ... at some point in time there is a result 14:48:17 ... how to cancel action 14:48:33 ... RPC cannot be cancelled 14:49:05 s/DSIPATCHED/DISPATCHED 14:49:34 ... a generic cancel mechanism would introduce complex actions semantics 14:50:08 ... on the other hand one can simply introduce cancel operation 14:50:18 ... what about result 14:50:28 ... polling? 14:50:53 ... causes network traffic... processing overhead 14:51:05 ... what about timeouts? 14:51:25 ... motivates timeout parameter 14:51:34 ... how to get result without polling 14:51:56 ... SSE, LongPoll, WebHook, .. can we agree on a standard? 14:51:58 q+ 14:52:23 q+ to ask about what "long" means here 14:52:29 ... question about actions quees: 14:52:45 ... typically FIFO sequence 14:53:25 ... what about emergency stop ... 14:53:33 ... beyond scope of WoT? 14:54:26 MMC: I guess we need more time to discuss this topic 14:54:33 ... Friday? 14:54:50 ML: immediate feedback would be very much welcome 14:55:00 ... Ege is not available on Friday 14:55:18 MMC: Quick feedback is reasonable 14:55:56 ... we extend actions to support status 14:56:03 ... references 14:56:12 ... status url 14:56:46 ML: defining status payload content? 14:57:02 ... profile could use this work from TD 14:57:20 MMC: could be informative in TD 14:57:47 q+ 14:58:00 ack mc 14:58:16 ... could sort out details 14:58:29 Kaz: I agree with the direction 14:58:49 ... clarify what is missing for TD and binding templates 14:59:05 ... guideline could be given in profile work 14:59:16 ack k 14:59:16 kaz, you wanted to ask about what "long" means here 14:59:25 ktoumura has joined #wot 14:59:26 ... original question: what does "long" mean? 14:59:49 ... should clarify criteria 15:00:01 ML: timeout parameter could be used 15:00:09 q? 15:00:47 SK: this is a big topic.. there is not *one* solution in the market yet 15:01:11 ... should start but keep approach as simple as possible 15:01:30 ... status mechanism makes sense to me 15:01:48 ... avoid eventing mechanism 15:02:05 ... advanced opportunities may come later 15:02:17 ... T2T group could help in this area also 15:02:23 s/guideline/and also implementation guideline on how to use those spec for actual applications, e.g., HTTP binding,/ 15:02:34 MMC: big topic, lets defer to next Arch cakk 15:02:41 s/lets/let's/ 15:02:44 s/cakk/call 15:03:06 [ 5min break ] 15:03:10 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:03:10 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/30-wot-minutes.html kaz 15:04:57 Here's the github issue about action semantics: https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/issues/81 15:07:08 s/[ 5min break ]// 15:07:10 [ 5min break ] 15:07:13 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:07:13 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/30-wot-minutes.html kaz 15:09:02 topic: Improved localizers 15:10:22 scribenick: citrullin 15:10:31