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17:51:27 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make log public
17:51:44 <Matt_King> MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
17:51:51 <Matt_King> CHAIR: Jemma
17:51:57 <Matt_King> present+
17:52:07 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
17:52:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/29-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King
17:52:49 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg
18:01:29 <Rich_Noah> present+
18:01:59 <Jemma> Jemma has joined #aria-apg
18:02:18 <Jemma> present+
18:02:21 <Rich_Noah> SCRIBE: Rich_Noah
18:02:27 <jongund> present+ jongund
18:02:28 <Jemma> rrsagent, make meeting minutes
18:02:28 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make meeting minutes', Jemma.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:02:42 <Jemma> rrsagent, make minutes
18:02:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/29-aria-apg-minutes.html Jemma
18:02:45 <jesdaigle> jesdaigle has joined #aria-apg
18:02:53 <jesdaigle> +present
18:02:54 <sarah_higley> sarah_higley has joined #aria-apg
18:03:05 <sarah_higley> present+
18:03:06 <Jemma> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/June-28,-2021-Agenda
18:03:33 <Rich_Noah> TOPIC: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/June-28,-2021-Agenda
18:03:45 <Jemma> agenda+ Setup and Review Agenda
18:03:53 <Jemma> agenda?
18:04:05 <Jemma> zakim, clear agenda
18:04:05 <Zakim> agenda cleared
18:04:14 <Jemma> Topic: Setup and Review Agenda
18:05:02 <Rich_Noah> Jemma: next meeting July 15th
18:06:29 <Jemma> Topic: HTML Range Slider Example
18:06:50 <Jemma> HTML Temperature Slider PR #1757
18:07:20 <Rich_Noah> Jemma: need review by Matt and Jes
18:07:42 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: was question of events being monitored answered?
18:08:13 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: we are going to use 2 events instead of one
18:08:43 <Rich_Noah> Jemma: did you have a chance to read the comment on Narrator?
18:08:59 <Jemma> this example uses the change and pointermove events and it is working on iOS and Android. Thanks for looking into this.
18:09:01 <Rich_Noah> jongund: we are not using Narrator.
18:09:24 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: I agree, this is a non issue.
18:09:47 <Rich_Noah> Jemma: are we still waiting on review?
18:10:13 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: i don't see any comments.  We are waiting on Jes and myself.
18:10:41 <Jemma> Topic: Rating Radios
18:10:54 <Jemma> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1870
18:11:44 <Rich_Noah> Jemma: Jon commented IOS radio group is not read.
18:12:10 <Rich_Noah> Jemma: can we ask James to review?
18:12:34 <Rich_Noah> jongund: he could possibly review
18:12:49 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: not sure if James is the proper one to review
18:13:24 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: we have functional and visual design review
18:13:37 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: I see Siri has signed up.
18:13:53 <Rich_Noah> Jemma: does anyone want to review the example?
18:14:37 <Rich_Noah> Jemma: Siri sent zoom chat to assign to her.
18:15:38 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: design is different but implemented not to look like radios.  We want something that is expected on a modern website in this widget.
18:16:13 <Rich_Noah> Jemma: it was interesting the zero star for visual design
18:16:25 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: the radio doesn't have a zero
18:16:27 <siri> siri has joined #aria-apg
18:16:41 <Rich_Noah> Jemma: the example shows
18:17:43 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: is there a reason for having two examples?
18:18:07 <Rich_Noah> jongund: one shows 1 star minimum the other shows zero stars
18:18:39 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: I want to keep the example as simple as possible.  I vote for one radio group
18:18:59 <Rich_Noah> jamesn: if someone shows a website that shows the 1 star but I have never seen one.
18:19:23 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: I do not know if the second group enhances our example
18:19:42 <Rich_Noah> Jemma: if removal of the second then visual design is approved.
18:20:09 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: Jemma if you approve then that concludes review
18:20:27 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: thank you for volunteering for functional review Siri
18:21:45 <Jemma> Topic: Tree Example - Set aria-selected to active tree view item
18:21:50 <Jemma> sarah's comment
18:22:21 <Jemma> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1869#discussion_r660853842
18:23:00 <Rich_Noah> sarah_higley: the person that created the PR didn't set it properly.  We should focus on visual focus selected style.
18:23:27 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: so you are saying in examples are not used properly?
18:23:43 <Rich_Noah> sarah_higley: yes, that is correct.  You have to select it.
18:24:20 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: is everything in the tree selectable?
18:24:31 <Jemma> https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/examples/treeview/treeview-1/treeview-1a.html
18:24:36 <Rich_Noah> sarah_higley: do we want aria selectable??
18:25:08 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: my thinking is they should all be selectable
18:25:19 <Rich_Noah> sarah_higley: they are all selectable
18:25:32 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: in that case selection does not follow focus
18:25:49 <Rich_Noah> Jemma: waiting on new PR
18:26:16 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: we had a question on what is required by the spec.
18:26:33 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: we do need the PR for the tree item
18:26:52 <Rich_Noah> jongund: we can create a new one
18:27:06 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: let us see if the author modifies their PR
18:27:09 <Jemma> Topic: Tooltip Design Draft
18:27:25 <Jemma> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/128
18:27:44 <Jemma> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/128#issuecomment-862808159
18:27:50 <Jemma> by Bryan
18:27:58 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: ultimate goal is to put useful guidance in the tool tip design pattern
18:28:19 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: it is currently a token section
18:28:44 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: a link to an issue has generated a lot of discussion.  Bryan to summarize the discussion.
18:29:28 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: hope here is to come to conclusion on some of the types of guidance to add/remove from the tool tip design pattern.
18:30:01 <Rich_Noah> bryan: content of tool tip depends on what you are trying to accomplish.
18:30:26 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: if it were to focusable would it be a dialog?
18:30:38 <Rich_Noah> bryan: yes, can cause poor layouts.
18:31:25 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: hesitant to add new vocabulary to the APG
18:32:08 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: unless it is terminology we need to concisely write guidance then the creation of new terms might not help.
18:32:37 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: how important is distinguishing one type of tool tip.
18:33:22 <jamesn> +1 to introduce the term toggletip
18:33:31 <Rich_Noah> sarah_higley: I suggest having a separate name for on hover than on click.  The two get conflated.  People do not separate them.
18:34:14 <Rich_Noah> bryan: that would help define for developers.
18:34:29 <Rich_Noah> Jemma: james +1 one the comment
18:34:49 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: normally don't hear designers refer to it as tooltip
18:35:17 <Rich_Noah> bryan: normally help icon
18:35:31 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: can we call it a toogle tip?
18:36:42 <Rich_Noah> jamesn: I don't hear our designers talking about hover.  I hear the term pop-overs.
18:36:47 <sarah_higley> here's the Open UI research for tooltip, with the various names: https://open-ui.org/components/tooltip.research
18:36:51 <Rich_Noah> Jemma: as a former U
18:37:28 <Rich_Noah> Jemma: as a former UX designer there is usually a design library componenet
18:38:14 <Rich_Noah> jongund: we used to talk about input assistance
18:38:48 <Rich_Noah> jongund: what is the difference between a tooltip and error feedback?
18:39:22 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: error feedback is not normally caused by hover or focus
18:39:43 <Jemma> https://www.nngroup.com/articles/tooltip-guidelines/
18:39:44 <Rich_Noah> sarah_higley: we should not include error feedback as an example
18:39:51 <Jemma> "Definition: A tooltip is a brief, informative message that appears when a user interacts with an element in a graphical user interface (GUI). Tooltips are usually initiated in one of two ways: through a mouse-hover gesture or through a keyboard-hover gesture."
18:40:54 <Rich_Noah> sarah_higley: showing an error icon to click/hover is a bad pattern
18:40:59 <jamesn> +1 error information should be persistent
18:41:14 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: so none of the error information should be in a pattern?
18:41:34 <Rich_Noah> sarah_higley: yes, not showing a model for anyone
18:43:06 <Rich_Noah> siri: tooltips should never include essential information
18:43:23 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: bryan what is your position on this?
18:44:21 <Rich_Noah> bryan: it is hard to define what essential information is.  it means different things to different people.  you can allow the announcement of a tooltip to be the sole source of the element.  you would need to be able to navigate into it.
18:45:24 <Rich_Noah> Jemma: tooltip is contextual, it can be critical information and not critical information.  They are there to add supplemental information to understand the context better.
18:45:53 <Jemma> "They provide descriptions or explanations for their paired element. Thus, tooltips are highly contextual and specific and don’t explain the bigger picture or entire task flow."
18:45:59 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: if we were to write "tooltips should never include critical information" is excessively restrictive.
18:48:01 <Rich_Noah> sarah_higley: even aside from mechanical access tool tips are not accessible to all.  It is a lazy method done when the design has not been figured out yet.
18:48:38 <Rich_Noah> sarah_higley: I think we should give guidance on how tool tips are to be used because they are used poorly throughout the web.
18:49:22 <Rich_Noah> sarah_higley: limit characters, what elements should applied to..
18:49:51 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: help me understand the tool tips, difference between persistent txt and when it receives focus.
18:52:42 <Rich_Noah> sarah_higley: in a past study the participants did not prefer the hover tip
18:53:01 <Rich_Noah> jongund: I propose a sub group
18:53:23 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: agreed, need consensus to boil down what this should look like.
18:53:53 <Rich_Noah> jamesn: need to be careful to not convey this way is the best way for every interface.
18:54:26 <sarah_higley> It Depends™ :D
18:54:41 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: would be awesome to get some people together that commented on the thread.
18:55:03 <Rich_Noah> jongund: we have alot of people here that can comment and come to consensus.
18:55:28 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: if we could have the behaviors for the tool tip role
18:56:10 <Rich_Noah> Jemma: since bryan did the first draft why don't we have sarah to take over.
18:56:58 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: if we can other people from the community involved it would be great
18:57:07 <Jemma> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/128
18:57:25 <Rich_Noah> sarah_higley: yes, let me read through it and then trying to reach out to the community.
18:57:41 <Rich_Noah> Jemma: yes that was effective.
18:57:55 <Rich_Noah> Topic: Accordion
18:58:22 <Rich_Noah> sarah_higley: i will read the comments and respond back at next meeting.
18:58:49 <Rich_Noah> Jemma: we did not get to the topic of expedited PR  review.
18:59:09 <Rich_Noah> Matt_King: we can talk about this on July 13th meeting.
18:59:12 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
18:59:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/29-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King
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