15:03:15 RRSAgent has joined #multicast 15:03:15 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/06/23-multicast-irc 15:03:22 Zakim has joined #multicast 15:04:30 Meeting: Multicast CG 15:04:39 Chair: Jake_Holland 15:05:36 Present+ Jake_Holland, Chris_Needham, Sudeep_Divakaran, Kyle_Rose, Mike_McBride, Claudio_Chacon, Casey_Russell, Brett_Sheffield 15:05:44 Topic: Introduction 15:06:00 Jake: Welcome everyone! Looking forward to working with you all 15:06:17 ... Let's introduce ourselves 15:06:56 ... I'm Jake Holland, been working on multicast at IETF for a while. It's where I spend most of my time. I'm an architect at Akamai 15:08:04 Chris: I'm at the BBC, co-chair of Media & Entertainment Interest Group and Media WG 15:08:40 Brett: I work on the Librecast project, which aims to get multicast working more widely on the internet. I do multicast advocacy, lurking on the MBONED IETF list 15:09:39 Casey: I'm a network engineer for a research and education network in Kansas. We've had various flavours - ASM and SSM deployed natively on our backbone. We're interested in continuing that, it's a good technology for the internet 15:10:21 Kyle: I'm work at Akamai with Jake. I lurk in MBONED at IETF, I'm helping Jake with the security aspects of multicast. I'm also co-chair of the MOPS WG at IETF 15:11:48 Mike: I'm a long-time multicast guy at IETF, working with Jake. I've worked with Cisco and Ericsson, Huawei. I'm interested in the application side 15:12:21 Sudeep: I work at Intel, I'm co-chair of the Web & Networks Interest Group, together with Dan Druta at AT&T and Song Xu at China Mobile 15:13:07 ... We work on bridging gap between Web and 5G, 3GPP, new and upcoming use cases on edge computing. Multicast is an interesting topic, so want to follow what's happening here and see how we can work together 15:13:38 Topic: Charter Review 15:13:53 Jake: I want to check we have consensus on the charter. 15:14:13 ... Has everyone read the charter? 15:14:17 aye - read it 15:14:54 squarooticus has joined #multicast 15:15:00 have read; no objections 15:15:02 Mike has joined #multicast 15:15:05 Jake: Any objections to the charter, or comments? 15:15:12 sudeep has joined #multicast 15:15:26 +1 from me 15:15:36 Casey_R has joined #multicast 15:16:08 Brett: By being here, we're in agreement 15:16:16 Jake: Let's call it ratified. I'll update the charter with the start date 15:17:41 Jake: If you'd like to be a co-chair, or if someone else wants to chair, please let me know. But I'm willing to run it. Please provide constructive feedback. 15:17:42 Topic: Meetings 15:18:35 Jake: How often to meet? I think a monthly 1 hour update would make sense. This timeslot could work, open to alternatives. 15:18:43 Let's do a doodle to work out the right timeslot. I know I usually have a team meeting from 11:30-12:30, that for just this week happens to be 12-1. (ET) 15:19:10 ... There's enough detailed work to do to set up working sessions to go through details on specific topics. We can get together in separate sessions, and then report back each month 15:19:21 present+ Gavin_Henry 15:19:40 sounds good 15:19:48 Jake: Any other suggestions? 15:20:19 present+ Flavio_Rodriguez 15:20:34 Kyle: We could do a Doodle poll for a regular monthly meeting slot 15:21:03 Any day works fine just not earlier than this time. 15:22:38 Chris: Avoiding Tuesday would be good. Another idea is to have alternating timeslots, morning and afternoon 15:23:20 Jake: I'll ask for votes 15:23:44 Topic: Proof of concept implementations 15:24:11 Jake: I'd like to help people get up and running with some implementations, so i'd like to set up a meeting to do that 15:24:18 Topic: Deliverables 15:24:49 Jake: The charter lists some deliverables. Testing implementations, would be good to get people involved in both implementations and testing 15:25:27 ... There's a lot of work to do. The prototype stuff out there is hacky, needs fleshing out to make it useful in production quality services 15:25:58 ... The more people we can get looking at this the better. Many hands make light work 15:26:01 ... There's a few different things that would be useful to do 15:26:15 ... I'm grateful for any constructive contributions people can make 15:26:38 ... Specs need writing, how things should work 15:26:55 ... Also reviews of specs need doing 15:27:44 ... The API needs developing, writing tests. We're at an early stage of the project. This is where the biggest piece of work is. 15:27:57 ... This would be the focus of the first working meeting, to get up and running 15:28:38 ... Supporting the use cases people have in mind is important. I encourage people to start using the API and building things, to help debug 15:29:15 Mike: This is my first time joining a W3C meeting. Is it similar to IETF, how does document publishing work? 15:30:03 chris: this is a community group, but in order to be standards track this needs to be adopted into a working group 15:30:38 ...there's a lot of working groups, we'll need browser vendors on board for a browser API proposal, for instance 15:31:16 ...it's also possible to propose to an existing group an extenstion 15:31:50 ...there's stages of development, including horizontal review with security, privacy, internationalization, etc. all as part of the standards track process 15:32:22 ...but at this stage we can focus on the proposed API development and get some engagement from the browser vendors 15:33:14 Jake: On that point, we did take this to Chromium as a first try. They said no, their feedback was this is a new kind of mixed content - in that it doesn't follow the same security model for web apps, e.g., when receiving TLS 15:33:45 ... I got similar feedback from the WebTransport group. So I then went back to plan A, which is to satisfy security concerns, and propose to WebTransport 15:33:51 https://github.com/squarooticus/draft-krose-multicast-security/blob/master/draft-krose-multicast-security.md 15:33:54 ... Kyle started writing a document 15:34:39 Jake: There's a list of specs in the charter that we should be interested in. This document is our first take on a security analysis for multicast transport to the browser 15:35:10 ... There are some differences with that and unicast transport. In terms of app use cases, we assume it's possible to satisfy the security concerns 15:35:28 ... It's possible that some in the web community will push back, saying it can't be made secure enough 15:35:57 ... The worst of the threat models, RCE through buffer overflow in video rendering, for example. These are solved through authentication and integrity protection 15:36:33 ... Confidentiality concerns were also brought up. So we're trying to understand the threat model, and understand the issues exposed for browsers 15:36:50 ... We think it's addressable, but it'll be a consensus question, both at IETF and W3C 15:37:04 ... Review and in-depth coverage of that topic is one of the big things to document 15:37:28 ... Any other questions about W3C? 15:37:41 Mike: No, Chris's comments helped 15:38:28 Brett: WebRTC was exciting, I thought we could use it for multicast. The encryption built in is - like TLS, a 1:1 key exchange, and that doesn't really work over multicast 15:38:54 ... There are other things we could do to set up a key exchange, to get a group key. I'm looking at that in my project 15:39:23 ... It needs some form of handshake communication. It's not a problem specific to multicast. But we need to hang on to scalability 15:40:00 Jake: There may be some things unicast can do that would be hard to match. What's the impact on the user, and what mitigations would service providers and browsers need to take to make this work at an acceptable level? 15:40:39 ... What's the privacy risk of watching a large scale video event? Challenging to pin down, it's not been well documented as a threat model, as far as I know 15:41:16 Jake: I'd like to help people get up and running next week, if people want to contribute at that level. Then we can see what people can build on from there 15:41:25 ... Any other suggestion for what to do first? 15:42:14 ... An outcome from that could be tutorials. 15:42:59 ... Where we'd like to get is into implementation and testing, and into specifications. It'll be important to refine our security argument, perhaps that's where to start? 15:43:34 Brett: I have funding in my project to work on certain milestones related to IPv6 multicast specifically. Working on a WebRTC video conferencing streaming server 15:44:03 ... I'll check for overlap with what this group is trying to do, so can use that to see what I can contribute 15:44:46 Jake: We have WebRTC as a phase 2 item. It could supplement a WebRTC conferencing session, so it can scale more than currently. Could be a good way to do low latency 15:45:00 ... Low latency access for a few participants, plus large scale broadcast 15:45:41 ... There are a few channels running, sending TS encoded traffic. I haven't tried that using Media Source Extensions. I'd be curious to try that 15:46:20 ... I'm interested in that use case. I thought WebRTC used the same kind of codec paths. It could be a proof of concept 15:47:12 ... The other use case is the previous BBC work - Lucas's work on HTTP over multicast QUIC. Using WASM to receive that traffic would be interesting. 15:47:33 ... They showed it playing video in a browser, but I think the last step to the browser was WebSockets? The prototype now could feed it straight into a web app 15:47:53 ... That would be an interesting thing to try 15:49:17 ghenry has joined #multicast 15:49:59 Chris: Lucas has moved on to other things, but I hope the BBC people involved will be able to contribute. I'll try to ping them 15:50:27 Jake: Who'd like to get together next week and get started with a browser receiving multicast? 15:50:43 Sounds good. 15:51:48 Jake: I've posted Linux Chromium binaries. I'd like to get it into other browsers though. There are sources linked in the Charter, I can share the link 15:51:57 https://github.com/GrumpyOldTroll/chromium_fork 15:52:35 Jake: It takes about 6 or 8 hours to build 15:52:48 What type of machine is that on? 15:53:07 ... I have a nightly build that uses the latest Chromium dev version and applies the multicast patch 15:53:54 ... So the idea would be to go through the steps to get it set up. There's some publicly available traffic we can use, video streams accessible through relays that Juniper have set up. 15:54:17 ... There are resources such as a Python script that sends traffic on your own LAN and receive in the browser 15:54:30 ... As we get the authentication set up, we'd get that integrated into the demo 15:54:57 ... There's an implementation in AMBI, needs enabling via a flag 15:55:35 ... It's a starting point for exploration, so the next meeting would be a walkthrough of getting that running 15:55:42 If my schedule works out, I'll be there 15:55:50 I don't think you should schedule around me, however 15:56:18 Jake: I'll go ahead and schedule that 15:57:29 Brett: Between now and then, I'll look at the charter to see what I can contribute 15:57:50 Jake: Some other people have joined the group but aren't here now 15:58:35 https://www.w3.org/community/multicast/ 15:58:47 Jake: Here's the mailing list link: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multicast/ 16:00:35 Jake: Thanks everyone for joining. Let's use the mailing list to continue discussion. See you next time! 16:00:38 [adjourned] 16:00:42 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:00:42 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/23-multicast-minutes.html cpn 16:00:50 rrsagent, make log public 16:01:01 Very interesting. Thanks for the overview. 16:03:59 rrsagent, make log public 17:20:56 jholland has joined #multicast 17:45:50 Zakim has left #multicast 18:17:08 jholland has joined #multicast 18:33:55 jholland has joined #multicast 19:17:12 jholland has joined #multicast