13:09:32 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #coga
13:09:32 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/06/17-coga-irc
13:09:34 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:09:34 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #coga
13:09:36 <trackbot> Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
13:09:36 <trackbot> Date: 17 June 2021
13:19:48 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda+ actions https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/PlanningPage#Actions
13:20:03 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda+ https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Actions_Requests
13:21:05 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda+  looking at  https://w3c.github.io/apa/xaur/  and our   issue https://github.com/w3c/apa/issues/183
13:21:27 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda+  looking at  https://w3c.github.io/apa/xaur/  and our   issue https://github.com/w3c/apa/issues/181
13:21:35 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda+  looking at  https://w3c.github.io/apa/xaur/  and our   issue https://github.com/w3c/apa/issues/183
13:22:25 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda+ inclusive groups https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RbjN7fLaucSzVfTqQdoCHoX3GFEoyHz2iiz3ap9Yd6k/edit#
13:23:25 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda+ wcag 3  comments  at https://github.com/w3c/wcag/labels/COGA
13:46:35 <JohnRochford> JohnRochford has joined #coga
13:49:07 <LisaSeemanKest_> LisaSeemanKest_ has joined #coga
13:49:12 <LisaSeemanKest_> agenda
13:50:01 <Fazio> Fazio has joined #coga
13:58:06 <JustineP> JustineP has joined #coga
13:59:48 <LisaSeemanKest_> agenda?
14:00:39 <JustineP> present+
14:01:48 <Fazio> present+
14:02:08 <LisaSeemanKest_> regrets:  John r, John k, kriss anne, roy
14:02:14 <Jennie> Jennie has joined #coga
14:02:21 <LisaSeemanKest_> regrets:  John r, John k, kriss anne, roy, alberts
14:02:25 <Jennie> present+
14:03:18 <Fazio> FYI, I reached out to mt University of California contacts at the MIND Institute and at the Tarjan Center. Theyre circulating our request for mental health professionals and research
14:03:21 <Joshue108> present+
14:03:45 <cweidner> cweidner has joined #COGA
14:03:49 <cweidner> present+
14:04:04 <LisaSeemanKest_> scribe: justine
14:04:21 <LisaSeemanKest_> scribe: justinep
14:04:46 <LisaSeemanKest_> zakim, next item
14:04:46 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- actions https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/PlanningPage#Actions -- taken up [from LisaSeemanKest]
14:06:44 <JustineP> Lisa: Mental health subgroup, assign one paper per person to be completed approximately end of July
14:06:53 <EA> EA has joined #coga
14:08:04 <JustineP> ...Inclusive working group - consensus seems to be achieved. Will discuss today if possible.
14:08:54 <JustineP> EA: Silver/clear words meeting has not been arranged yet.
14:09:05 <JustineP> Lisa: Will assign Rain an action of scheduling a meeting.
14:09:11 <JustineP> EA: That's already happening.
14:10:22 <LisaSeemanKest_> Q?
14:10:22 <JustineP> Jennie: Technical description - put historical information from findable help  (2016 to present) into Google doc and updated wiki
14:11:05 <LisaSeemanKest_> zakim, next item
14:11:05 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Actions_Requests -- taken up [from LisaSeemanKest]
14:11:36 <JustineP> Lisa: Review EO video scripts - Did anyone manage to review?
14:12:08 <JustineP> ...I scanned quickly and didn't seem to involve us very much.
14:13:04 <Rachael> I agree that the current script topics for the videos do not seem COGA related
14:13:05 <JustineP> ...I added pronunciation to our tasks but I don't think we've submitted feedback.
14:13:58 <JustineP> Rachael: accessible authentication - Alastair sent updated link
14:14:31 <JustineP> ...comment period closed for WCAG 2.2. We are looking to return comments on accessible authentication within the next few weeks.
14:14:42 <JustineP> Lisa: We don't have a clear deadline?
14:15:14 <JustineP> Rachael: About two weeks. We are moving toward final stages of publication and it will take several weeks after COGA's review to wrap up.
14:15:34 <LisaSeemanKest_> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/labels/COGA
14:16:05 <Jennie> q+
14:16:11 <JustineP> Lisa: We have 6 comments in Github that are tagged for COGA. Some are related to accessible authentication.
14:16:38 <Rachael> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/labels/COGA
14:16:42 <LisaSeemanKest_> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/labels/COGA
14:17:23 <JustineP> Jennie: I believe John R was working on accessible authentication.
14:17:34 <Jennie> ack Jennie
14:17:41 <JustineP> Rachael: Will see who was working on visible controls.
14:18:14 <Rachael> David McDonald was helping us iwth Visible Controls
14:18:19 <JustineP> Lisa: Does anyone want to sign up to review either one of issues or more?
14:18:34 <JustineP> Rachael: I will take visible control issues.
14:18:47 <Rachael> q+
14:19:18 <JustineP> EA: Was Steve looking at accessible authentication along with Abi?
14:20:02 <JustineP> ...If you have dyslexia, why can't you open and see what you've entered? That was one of our concerns.
14:20:04 <Rachael> q-
14:20:45 <LisaSeemanKest_> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/labels/COGA
14:20:47 <JustineP> Lisa: Another issue also discussed showing password to end users.
14:20:58 <EA> John Rochford seems to be on the list
14:21:12 <JustineP> ...would it be easier to send to COGA via email?
14:22:20 <JustineP> Lisa: If you scroll down in Phil's issue, we can add comments which will be sent to AG.
14:23:05 <JustineP> ...Does anyone else have time to comment on issue list?
14:23:08 <Rachael> q+
14:24:15 <JustineP> Rachael: Visible controls - can come up with suggestions and discuss during next COGA meeting prior to entering comment.
14:24:34 <Jennie> +1 to Rachael's suggestion - it will simplify things a lot
14:24:47 <JustineP> ...Will add the 6 issues for discussion during an upcoming meeting.
14:24:58 <JustineP> <last was Lisa>
14:25:16 <JustineP> EA: I submitted one comment on authentication just now.
14:25:50 <LisaSeemanKest_> Q?
14:25:57 <JustineP> Lisa: Any questions before we move on?
14:25:57 <LisaSeemanKest_> ack r
14:26:15 <LisaSeemanKest_> next item
14:26:37 <LisaSeemanKest_> https://w3c.github.io/apa/xaur/
14:26:48 <JustineP> ...Josh is here from APA XR subgroup regarding user requirements
14:28:28 <LisaSeemanKest_> https://w3c.github.io/apa/xaur/#immersive-semantics-and-customization
14:29:06 <JustineP> ...This is a list of user requirements and user needs. It has user needs followed by requirements (in terms of document structure).
14:29:24 <LisaSeemanKest_> Q?
14:29:55 <LisaSeemanKest_> agendum 3 -- looking at https://w3c.github.io/apa/xaur/ and our issue https://github.com/w3c/apa/issues/183 -- taken up
14:30:50 <JustineP> Josh: We have been working on this document for 3 years and have many user needs and requirements covered, some related to COGA. We need science-related examples that demonstrate specific user needs in immersive/augmented reality.
14:31:46 <Jennie> *I can scribe Justine
14:31:50 <Jennie> scribe: Jennie
14:32:08 <Jennie> Joh: This contains a lot of really good information about affordences and different modailities
14:32:22 <Jennie> Josh: We may have enough even in that to back up our research
14:32:39 <Jennie> ...A lot of the heuristics, coming up with a best practice for this space, is out there
14:33:00 <Jennie> Lisa: The document you are talking about is Making Content Usable?
14:33:02 <Jennie> Josh: yes
14:33:07 <Jennie> Lisa: It is a note now
14:33:18 <Jennie> Josh: That's right, which means it is referenced in the document.
14:33:26 <Jennie> ...I can discuss the feedback with APA
14:33:41 <Jennie> ...The note - Content Usable, can then be used as the research
14:33:46 <Jennie> Lisa: It all maps to user needs
14:33:49 <Jennie> Josh: Exactly
14:33:55 <Jennie> Lisa: It maps the patterns
14:34:00 <Jennie> Josh: It is a really good document
14:34:27 <Jennie> Lisa: We are trying to address your requests
14:34:30 <Joshue108> q?
14:34:39 <JustineP> scribe: JustineP
14:34:41 <Jennie> *All yours Justine
14:35:04 <JustineP> Lisa: Do you need more from us regarding pace/speed of environment?
14:35:52 <JustineP> Josh: Even non-normative content is seen as definitive which is natural but we need to be able to back up our assertions.
14:36:16 <JustineP> ...Rain gave some good examples and indicated some text from Content Usable that can back up some of our claims.
14:36:42 <JustineP> ...I can pop in next week to follow up.
14:37:45 <JustineP> David: We do have some research on mono vs. stereo sound. I need to dig up reference. Mono vs. stereo can disorient people with certain cognitive disabilities. We also have wayfinding guidance.
14:37:50 <Joshue108> thanks David, can you add the mono reference stuff to this issue?
14:37:50 <Joshue108> https://github.com/w3c/apa/issues/180
14:38:03 <JustineP> Lisa: You can always email to the thread or comment in Github once you find the information.
14:38:28 <JustineP> ...or email directly to Josh.
14:38:53 <JustineP> Josh: I have enough information to move forward now.
14:39:11 <LisaSeemanKest_> next item
14:39:18 <LisaSeemanKest_> close item 4
14:39:26 <LisaSeemanKest_> close item 5
14:39:39 <JustineP> Josh: Any other questions?
14:39:46 <LisaSeemanKest_> next item
14:40:33 <JustineP> Lisa: We are working on a guidance document on how to work with COGA. It would be interesting to receive your feedback, Josh.
14:41:00 <JustineP> ...getting on a call with us might be the best way to reach out.
14:41:16 <JustineP> ...Let's skip inclusive group document for now.
14:41:43 <LisaSeemanKest_> tpoc: https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/1912
14:42:15 <JustineP> ...Do we want to agree with this issue? Let's take a moment to review.
14:42:41 <JustineP> <Lisa reads feedback from Github issue>
14:43:29 <LisaSeemanKest_> this really does help (but is not always enogh)
14:43:36 <JustineP> ...I'm inclined to agree but say that it might not always be enough. Thoughts?
14:43:49 <EA> But what is enough? +1
14:44:03 <EA> OK
14:44:17 <JustineP> ...clarifying that you can use a password manager, etc.
14:44:19 <JustineP> +1
14:44:20 <Jennie> q+
14:44:34 <LisaSeemanKest_> ack j
14:44:56 <JustineP> Jennie: I use a password tool that sometimes overlaps with icon that exposes the password text. Should we make sure that they don't overlap?
14:45:41 <LisaSeemanKest_>  coga feels: this really does help but is not always enough to use it . care should be taken that the eaybal icon is not hidden when using a password manager.
14:46:03 <JustineP> Lisa: Thoughts on the above comment?
14:46:16 <LisaSeemanKest_> +1
14:46:23 <cweidner> +1
14:46:26 <JustineP> +1
14:46:31 <Jennie> +1
14:46:38 <JustineP> Lisa: Should we validate this through the list?
14:46:42 <Jennie> I agree, should validate through the lsit
14:46:52 <JustineP> Agree that validating with the list is a good idea.
14:47:32 <JustineP> Lisa: Will move forward as suggested then.
14:47:48 <LisaSeemanKest_> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/1902
14:49:02 <Jennie> q+
14:49:12 <JustineP> ...I think I agree with the confusion.
14:49:58 <LisaSeemanKest_> q+
14:50:00 <JustineP> Jennie: Question for EA. We have the list of 100 most common words. If we look at symbol sets that are used for augmentative/alternative communication devices do we have a list of common objects that cross international boundaries?
14:50:43 <LisaSeemanKest_> ack j
14:50:44 <JustineP> EA: We discussed this in COGA a long time ago. Words that are most commonly used number between 100-500 but depends on the language. Some of us found that most common words don't always cross languages but we can probably focus on the commonly used words list.
14:51:01 <JustineP> Lisa: I'm not sure if common objects is a good idea.
14:51:11 <JustineP> EA: It isn't a great idea because it doesn't cross cultures.
14:51:20 <Rachael> q+
14:52:11 <JustineP> Lisa: For example, is an image a boy or man? It might be obvious to author but not to others. A car vs. bicycle is another example.
14:52:17 <Rachael> The normative text (from the definition) is whether something "requires the user to remember, manipulate, or transcribe information", and this is requiring the manipulation of information.
14:52:31 <JustineP> Rachael: Alastair provided the preceding comment in Github to the issue.
14:52:46 <Rachael> q-
14:52:50 <JustineP> ...He suggested that we remove as a test (common objects).
14:53:34 <JustineP> Lisa: We will suggest removing. <prepares response>
14:53:37 <LisaSeemanKest_> coga suggest -common objects be rmoved , as it is oftwn hard to know what catigory it is in, and common, is not always common in diffrent culture
14:53:44 <EA> +q
14:54:22 <JustineP> EA: When including categories, it can be perceived as parts of speech. We should clarify.
14:54:24 <LisaSeemanKest_> ack l
14:54:27 <LisaSeemanKest_> ack ea
14:54:30 <LisaSeemanKest_> coga suggest -common objects be removed , as it is often hard to know what it is in, and common, is not always common in diffrent culture
14:54:52 <JustineP> EA: I agree.
14:55:27 <LisaSeemanKest_> +1
14:55:53 <JustineP> q+
14:55:59 <LisaSeemanKest_> ack j
14:57:22 <LisaSeemanKest_> this included r=the trafic lights in captue
14:57:36 <LisaSeemanKest_> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/1901
14:58:20 <JustineP> Lisa: Remembering email/username are not cognitive tests...I don't think that's true.
14:58:54 <Jennie> *dropping off but will join the Silver/Coga call after this in 2 minutes. Have a good week!
14:59:10 <Fazio> might be
14:59:10 <JustineP> EA: Are they tests of cognition rather than cognitive tests? These may be slightly different issues.
14:59:28 <Rachael> q+
15:00:35 <Rachael> q-
15:00:36 <JustineP> Rachael: This is trying to say that they are allowed as tests for authentication. Wording in understanding doc might need to be clarified that they are acceptable cognitive tests.
15:00:59 <JustineP> Lisa: Saying that they are acceptable because they can be copied/pasted from a notepad easily.
15:01:57 <LisaSeemanKest_> Remembering your email, address, and name are tests of  cognitive ability.  In fact they are just the tipe of test in a MCI mini mental test. They may be alowed for authetification as they can be copy paisted from a not pad quite easily, or filled in automaticaly by a autocomplete
15:02:35 <JustineP> +1
15:02:35 <Fazio> +1
15:03:02 <EA> +1
15:03:31 <JustineP> zakim, make minutes
15:03:31 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make minutes', JustineP
15:03:35 <JustineP> rrsagent, make minutes
15:03:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/17-coga-minutes.html JustineP
15:05:50 <JustineP> zakim, please part
15:05:50 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been JustineP, Fazio, Jennie, Joshue, cweidner
15:05:50 <Zakim> Zakim has left #coga
15:05:57 <JustineP> rrsagent, please part
15:05:57 <RRSAgent> I see no action items