IRC log of silver on 2021-06-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:35:37 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
17:35:39 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:35:40 [Zakim]
Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
17:41:25 [jeanne]
Chair: jeanne, Shawn
17:42:20 [jeanne]
17:42:20 [jeanne]
17:42:20 [jeanne]
zakim, clear agenda
17:42:20 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate jeanne
17:42:20 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
17:42:21 [jeanne]
17:42:30 [jeanne]
agenda+ Survey on Functional Needs
17:42:30 [jeanne]
agenda+ Survey on scheduling
17:42:30 [jeanne]
agenda+ Project plan for August heartbeat draft
17:42:30 [jeanne]
agenda+ preview of Maturity Model
17:42:31 [jeanne]
agenda+ preview of 3rd party
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17:59:41 [jennifer]
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18:00:50 [Sheri_B-H]
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18:00:51 [Fazio]
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18:00:53 [Sheri_B-H]
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18:00:59 [sajkaj]
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18:02:29 [Jemma]
18:03:18 [jeanne]
scribe: jennifer
18:04:03 [Francis_Storr]
18:04:12 [Fazio]
18:04:37 [Fazio]
Maturity Model Presentation:
18:05:00 [jeanne]
zakim, take up item 1
18:05:00 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Survey on Functional Needs -- taken up [from jeanne]
18:05:07 [ChrisLoiselle]
18:05:15 [jeanne]
18:05:24 [jennifer]
Jeanne: reminder of survey on user needs - please fill it out by June 30.
18:05:28 [PeterKorn]
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18:05:31 [PeterKorn]
18:05:45 [jeanne]
zakim, take up next
18:05:45 [Zakim]
agendum 1 was just opened, jeanne
18:06:01 [jeanne]
zakim, take up item 2
18:06:01 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- Survey on scheduling -- taken up [from jeanne]
18:06:22 [jeanne]
18:06:53 [jennifer]
Jeanne: not sure what happened with survey, I put in 9:30 am option but it didn't appear in survey yet appears in results. Michael, if you can fix please do.
18:07:18 [jennifer]
I will take any 9am Boston and transfer to 9:30 am option.
18:07:38 [Jemma]
I think error sub group has a conflict for 9am option.
18:07:40 [jennifer]
MichaelC & Jeanne discuss possible issues.
18:08:01 [jennifer]
MichaelC: Not sure I know how to fix, but will take a look.
18:08:05 [jeanne]
zakim, take up item 3
18:08:05 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Project plan for August heartbeat draft -- taken up [from jeanne]
18:08:19 [jennifer]
Jeanne: will transfer any 9 to 9:30, or cancel and create new.
18:08:25 [jeanne]
18:09:26 [jennifer]
Jeanne: Working on tentative dates, 7 items that we'd like to have in heartbeat, when to go to AGWG, when to survey, when to CFC, when to editors draft… definitely looking for dates for visual contrast & XR captions, when ready to agwg for introduction.
18:09:47 [PeterKorn]
18:09:50 [PeterKorn]
18:09:59 [jennifer]
Will discuss more next week, but putting in folks' thoughts… any other items ?
18:11:11 [jennifer]
Peter & Jennifer, refreshed on introduction revisions, will send to Jeanne.
18:11:19 [jennifer]
Peter: any more guidelines we're going to try to get in?
18:11:42 [jennifer]
Errors, I believe.
18:11:57 [jennifer]
How we score errors to address some of the use cases highlighted and delivered.
18:12:01 [PeterKorn]
ack Pet
18:12:20 [jennifer]
Jeanne: I'm not expecting we'll have the scoring update for weeks yet, probably not in for quarter 3, either.
18:12:21 [jeanne]
zakim, take up item 4
18:12:21 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- preview of Maturity Model -- taken up [from jeanne]
18:12:36 [jennifer]
Jeanne: turn over to Sheri, to share screen, etc.
18:13:01 [Fazio]
18:13:57 [jennifer]
Fazio: we've been working on maturity model for a while, something folks around the world are interested, and something w3c realizes we need to standardize.
18:14:16 [jennifer]
Showing participants of the subcommittee
18:14:57 [jennifer]
David Fazio, Jake Abma, Jeff Kline, Lori Samuels, Sheri Byrne-Haber, Raph de Rooij, Wilco Fiers, John Foliot, Sarah Horton
18:15:58 [jennifer]
[Scribe won't type slide contents -- only discussion going forward, unless someone needs it, since the reader is reading slides]
18:16:36 [jennifer]
Took the best of other maturity models, and broke it into their own system, as noted on Scope of Work. Still under discussion.
18:17:08 [jennifer]
None of the existing maturity models fit our needs, which is why we're creating our own.
18:17:21 [jennifer]
Working on the weighting and scoring system.
18:18:09 [PeterKorn]
18:18:28 [jennifer]
Sheri: identified a number of orgs already using maturity models
18:19:50 [jennifer]
Getting something accessible is easy, keeping something accessible is really hard.
18:19:56 [jennifer]
Maturity model focuses on keeping.
18:20:31 [Jemma]
Our university is using a maturity model from The Global Initiative for Inclusive ICTs(G3ict)
18:20:44 [jennifer]
The idea is this is WCAG independent, good for 2, 3, and future
18:21:17 [jennifer]
Raph: slide showing regular ways of addressing accessibility
18:22:33 [jennifer]
maturity model place is between, applied to the goal and what the org is doing about a11y.
18:23:32 [jennifer]
there are barriers that have nothing to do with WCAG, and that can be taken into acct in the MM
18:23:43 [Jemma]
procurement is a great example for non-technical part.
18:25:10 [jennifer]
Sheri: how do we ask the right questions that give ppl the things that are relevant to their orgs? Not all proof points apply to all orgs, depends on many characteristics.
18:25:32 [jennifer]
Fazio: MM vs Disability Equity Index
18:26:06 [jennifer]
DEI primarily focused on employment, physical a11y; does not focus on what they do influences what is produced.
18:26:14 [jennifer]
MM does focus on what is produced.
18:26:51 [Jemma]
This sounds interesting - "End-to-end focus on accessibility, not focused on inclusion"
18:28:12 [jennifer]
DEI looks for having an a11y statement. MM looks at content of statement.
18:28:41 [jennifer]
Four level scoring system, 0 no awareness, 1 recognized need, 2 roadmap in place, 3 fully implemented
18:29:36 [jennifer]
7 dimensions: communications, knowledge & skills, support, procurement, personnel, culture, SDLC
18:29:39 [Jemma]
sometimes I see "data collection" as one of dimensions.
18:29:48 [Jemma]
from other maturity model
18:29:52 [jennifer]
Fazio: realize there may be controversy to dimensions, happy to discuss
18:37:33 [Jemma]
18:39:03 [jennifer]
Fazio: we need help, collab, guidance on next steps. Publish as w3c note, wcag version independence, etc.
18:39:15 [jennifer]
Fazio: need buy-in from w3c groups to continue
18:40:25 [jeanne]
18:40:47 [jennifer]
PeterKorn: final slide answers primary question. I look fwd to reading the draft.
18:41:05 [jennifer]
PeterKorn: looking to understand how this fits into WCAG3.
18:41:09 [PeterKorn]
18:41:13 [jennifer]
PeterKorn: note feels appropriate.
18:41:47 [jennifer]
Fazio: this is part of what was considered, such as Amazon is such a big site; if something breaks while being fixed, then the MM suits for evaluation.
18:42:19 [Jemma]
It seems that I don't have a permission to add comment to the slide.
18:42:28 [jeanne]
zakim, take up item 5
18:42:28 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- preview of 3rd party -- taken up [from jeanne]
18:42:52 [Jemma]
great job on maturity model sub group!
18:43:23 [Fazio]
Maturity Model Draft
18:43:31 [Jemma]
s/model/model, /
18:43:32 [sajkaj]
18:43:35 [jennifer]
Sajkaj: 3rd party subgroup, we do have a draft, still missing pieces
18:44:14 [jennifer]
sajkaj: summary is there's definition for 2 kinds of 3rd party content - who controls the experience / code; can you fix or does someone else have to?
18:44:23 [jennifer]
implications are broken out in next section.
18:44:57 [jennifer]
two kinds, one service or authentication, and publication of media (music, movies, ebooks)
18:45:26 [jennifer]
then user-generated, the site has control but cannot control how well ppl do things like alt text
18:46:20 [Fazio]
Yes, the MM link is a working draft that we've continually update for over 6 months
18:46:51 [jennifer]
it's important to note an earlier draft was looking at scoring these, but criticism is we can't let ppl off the hook if they do something inaccessible.
18:47:31 [jennifer]
sajkaj: if we work through any one of them, the question remains, what is the impact?
18:47:42 [jennifer]
sajkaj: they all start with do an assessment.
18:48:08 [jennifer]
sajkaj: issues arise when there are a11y challenges with what's there, how do we score that?
18:48:28 [jennifer]
PeterKorn: i would note this came out of our initial set of challenges months ago.
18:48:39 [Sheri_B-H]
18:49:07 [jennifer]
PeterKorn: how might we be more thoughtful and explicit in addressing them in wcag3; if 3rd party tool has issue… and exclude it, then the problem isn't really being dealt iwth.
18:49:24 [jennifer]
PeterKorn: with copyright, there may be a problem with law, too.
18:49:40 [Fazio]
Interesting point
18:49:49 [jennifer]
PeterKorn: might include audio descriptions, which might be defined as a derivative work in copyright.
18:49:53 [Fazio]
Does the "Fair Use" clause apply?
18:50:07 [jennifer]
PeterKorn: it does not have conformance from conformance options, but we should still have wider discussions.
18:50:11 [jeanne]
ack Sheri
18:50:54 [jennifer]
Sheri_B-H: as a former it atty, this interests me. will we attempt to categorize different sources of 3rd party content, and different ways to deal with.
18:51:13 [jennifer]
Sheri_B-H: we went through this with Ronald McDonald House, but couldnt' because they didn't own the copyright to the video.
18:51:20 [jennifer]
Sheri_B-H: just like with reddit,
18:51:48 [jennifer]
Sheri_B-H: … i can see this being an issue for amazon, with folks uploading 3rd party images
18:52:17 [jennifer]
PeterKorn: we were not imagining we would have a menu of sub-categories and treat differently. we feel there are 2.5 to 3 buckets, maybe 4 or 5.
18:52:28 [jennifer]
Sheri_B-H: i wasn't thinking 20, I was thinking a dozen.
18:52:41 [jennifer]
PeterKorn: we would love your input, if we need to schedule a meeting, happy to.
18:52:44 [PeterKorn]
18:52:48 [jennifer]
Sheri_B-H: lets discuss offline
18:52:53 [jennifer]
sajkaj: great
18:53:36 [jennifer]
PeterKorn: one of next steps before bringing to agwg on 22nd, take steps to conform, apply to our two use cases. for use case a, this is what hte site is doing, 3rd party arranged videos… etc.
18:54:26 [jennifer]
PeterKorn: so that we can see in a concrete example what this is, and that's what we aim to bring to agwg on 22nd.
18:54:52 [jennifer]
sajkaj: since we have a few minutes, might we walk through one of them? user-generated might be understandable.
18:55:03 [Sheri_B-H]
I need to drop but will look at the minutes, and reach out to Peter and Janinia about meeting times
18:55:04 [jennifer]
PeterKorn: travel site example, use case a, user-generated
18:56:01 [jennifer]
PeterKorn: someone visited thailand, wrote up review, stayed x, y, z, and described… the web form for the travelogue prompts user for a variety of things, such as alt text and plain language.
18:57:07 [jennifer]
PeterKorn: in this case, the user referenced sensory info, and at the time the site cannot check for duplications or anything not using sensory info. the site might label, possibly through idref - conversation with johnfoliot about tool options - tell users how to make contributions accessible.
18:57:28 [jennifer]
PeterKorn: make it clear when content is user-contribution, for example. tbd whether and how we score or report out.
18:57:43 [jennifer]
sajkaj: continues to be a work in progress, …
18:58:09 [jennifer]
sajkaj: may copy over from atag, possibly, take advantage of that atag work producing authoring tool guidance
18:58:25 [jennifer]
sajkaj: the difference is all the site can do is try to get ppl to do the right thing
18:59:13 [jennifer]
PeterKorn: the other options we see are disallow 3rd party content, only allow a menu of choices, or have a site that fails to comply/conform, and thereby not be in compliance with regulatory bodies.
18:59:27 [jennifer]
sajkaj: people are people and not going to be perfect.
19:00:26 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:00:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jeanne