IRC log of pbgsc on 2021-06-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:44:29 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/06/11-pbgsc-irc
14:44:32 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:44:33 [Zakim]
Meeting: Publishing Steering Committee
14:44:42 [Ralph]
agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishing-sc/2021Jun/0000.html
14:44:53 [Ralph]
agenda+ EPUBcheck Priorities
14:45:03 [Ralph]
agenda+ Updating IDPF specs on idpf.org with in-place status
14:45:12 [Ralph]
agenda+ Updating the Publishing@W3C landing page
14:45:24 [Ralph]
agenda+ Around the Zoom Gallery
14:45:32 [Ralph]
agenda+ AOB
14:45:40 [Ralph]
regrets: Daihei
14:45:52 [Ralph]
-> https://www.w3.org/2021/05/14-pbgsc-minutes previous: 14 May
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14:54:12 [George]
present+
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present+
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15:00:15 [wendyreid]
present+
15:00:43 [George]
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15:01:01 [Ralph]
present+
15:01:23 [George]
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15:01:29 [liisamk]
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15:01:32 [Ralph]
present+ Avneesh, Dave, Tzviya, Ivan, WendyReid,Liisa,Bill_Kasdorf
15:01:38 [liisamk]
present+
15:01:39 [Bill_Kasdorf]
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15:01:53 [Bill_Kasdorf]
present+
15:02:10 [Ralph]
action: Ralph figure out the calendaring issue that's annoying the EPUB WG
15:02:24 [Ralph]
Tzviya: and ARIA
15:02:28 [Ralph]
George: and Locators
15:02:43 [George]
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15:03:15 [Ralph]
present+ Cristina
15:04:13 [Ralph]
zakim, who's on the call?
15:04:13 [Zakim]
Present: George, avneeshsingh, wendyreid, Ralph, Dave, Tzviya, Ivan, Liisa, Bill_Kasdorf, liisamk, Cristina
15:04:43 [George]
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15:06:43 [George]
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15:07:59 [Ralph]
zakim, next item
15:07:59 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- EPUBcheck Priorities -- taken up [from Ralph]
15:08:06 [wendyreid]
scribe+ Bill_Kasdorf
15:08:19 [Ralph]
-> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishing-sc/2021Jun/0001.html Avneesh' intro
15:08:28 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Topic: EPUBCheck priorities
15:08:29 [ivan]
regrets+ daihei
15:08:43 [George]
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15:08:48 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Avneesh: Starting phase 3 to create a prototype based on HTML validator
15:09:02 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... Now being done manually
15:09:30 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... This prototype will explore migrating EPUBCheck to the HTML Validator
15:09:46 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... Plan was to propose a standing committee to work on this.
15:10:07 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... If we move to HTML this will be really valuable
15:10:08 [ivan]
q+
15:10:20 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... But there is another priority: Implementing EPUB 3.3
15:10:43 [George]
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15:10:51 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... EPUB 3.3 won't be implemented if it isn't in EPUBCheck
15:11:12 [Ralph]
present+ Mateus
15:11:13 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... As part of the contract the cost is $???
15:11:33 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... Main decision: do we want to swap priorities?
15:11:42 [Ralph]
s/???/the same as updating to support 3.3
15:11:52 [tzviya]
s/???/13,100
15:11:57 [tzviya]
ack iv
15:12:16 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Ivan: Does the HTML validator properly check XHTML?
15:12:32 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Avneesh: This is part of what we want to determine in the prototype
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15:12:56 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Ivan: If we decide not to go to HTML 5, my priority is 3.3 unambiguously.
15:13:02 [dauwhe_]
+3.3
15:13:31 [dauwhe_]
q+
15:13:38 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Tzviya: To be clear, the switch to 3.3 can be done without a cost change but we will still need to tweak the contract with Daisy.
15:13:47 [tzviya]
ack dauwhe_
15:14:08 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... Dave: Switching to the HTML Validator is "nice to have"; supporting 3.3 is a must.
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15:14:50 [wendyreid]
Proposed: Shift focus of EPUBCheck to 3.3
15:14:56 [ivan]
+1
15:14:57 [Bill_Kasdorf]
+1
15:14:57 [wendyreid]
+1
15:14:59 [liisamk]
+1
15:15:00 [tzviya]
+1
15:15:00 [mateus]
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15:15:02 [dauwhe_]
+3.3
15:15:10 [Ralph]
+1
15:15:40 [George]
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15:15:41 [dauwhe_]
q+
15:15:42 [Cristina_]
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15:15:42 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Tzviya: We don't need to bring this to the wider group; we will just work with Richard and Daisy.
15:15:55 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... We may need other people from the EPUB 3 WG
15:16:09 [Cristina_]
present+
15:16:11 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Avneesh: We will be wrapping up the current phase in two months.
15:16:23 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... We will be looking for community feedback at that point
15:16:34 [tzviya]
ack dauwhe_
15:16:42 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... After two months we will allow another two months for community feedback.
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15:16:48 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Dave: What's the money situation?
15:17:14 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Tzviya: We have enough money to finish out this contract, about $6,000.
15:17:30 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... We will have to do some fundraising for the $13,000 for the next phase.
15:17:50 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... Luc will no longer be able to do this; exploring a replacement for Luc.
15:18:13 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... I hope the excitement of 3.3 will make the fundraising relatively easy.
15:18:43 [George]
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15:19:00 [Bill_Kasdorf]
George: If the prototype works for both HTML and XHTML, will that reduce the cost of moving EPUBCheck to 3.3?
15:19:20 [tzviya]
s/enough/almost enough
15:19:21 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Avneesh: EPUB 2 also points to latest version of HTML; we just do it manually at this point.
15:20:03 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... In the short term this won't reduce our cost; in the long term it will make it easier to maintain.
15:20:10 [liisamk]
q+
15:20:16 [wendyreid]
RESOLVED: Shift focus of EPUBCheck to 3.3
15:20:21 [tzviya]
ack liisamk
15:20:24 [Bill_Kasdorf]
+1
15:20:43 [George]
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15:21:18 [Bill_Kasdorf]
liisamk: Timing questions. We have focused on making catalogs accessible by 2025. This is a big project.
15:21:19 [wendyreid]
q+
15:21:26 [dauwhe_]
q+
15:21:29 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... Should we recommend waiting for 3.3 to do this?
15:21:34 [tzviya]
ack wendyreid
15:21:42 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... What implementation do we expect?
15:22:08 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Wendy: I don't think 3.2 vs. 3.3 will matter that much for that project.
15:22:31 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... The revisions in 3.3 won't make that much difference for most EPUB; maybe more for FXL.
15:22:43 [George]
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15:22:47 [tzviya]
ack dauwhe_
15:23:20 [Bill_Kasdorf]
dauwhe: Nearly every existing EPUB 3 file will continue to be a valid EPUB 3.3 file.
15:23:45 [George]
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15:23:51 [George]
q+
15:23:55 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... There may be some edge cases that would be relevant, but in general "EPUB 3 is a thing" and these point releases only affect the margins.
15:23:55 [tzviya]
q+ to mention A11y spec
15:24:15 [tzviya]
ack ge
15:24:29 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... In my company moving from EPUB 3.1 to EPUB 3.2 was easy.
15:25:01 [Bill_Kasdorf]
George: New people should start with 3.3 but this should not be an issue for existing staff.
15:25:07 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Ivan: Yes, the document is much clearer.
15:25:28 [Bill_Kasdorf]
George: So as publishers update their files and workflows, they really should refer to 3.3.
15:25:43 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... If their 3.2 or older files pass EPUBCheck, there really isn't a problem.
15:25:43 [George]
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15:25:49 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... But always use 3.3 from now on.
15:25:53 [tzviya]
ack tz
15:25:53 [Zakim]
tzviya, you wanted to mention A11y spec
15:26:21 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Tzviya: We have made significant improvements in a11y; plus we have the EPUB Accessibility spec.
15:26:44 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... The EPUB Accessibility spec is a significant spec to pay attention to in this work too.
15:27:11 [mateus]
present+
15:27:57 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Christina: We are focusing on EPUB 3 in general but not getting too wrapped around the axle on the dot versions.
15:28:18 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... The EU wants conformance with EPUB 3 but not necessarily every new or old version.
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15:29:06 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Avneesh: You have been developing documents that show how we address the EUAA requirements.
15:29:26 [George]
q+
15:29:36 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Cristina: Yes, the document has been developed in the context of W3C based on existing open a11y standards.
15:29:44 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... Document is available on the LIA website.
15:29:45 [tzviya]
ack ra
15:30:16 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Ralph: If we were to say wait, we give a confusing message about the compatibility issue. Just focus on EPUB 3.
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15:31:09 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Cristina: It will be very complicated for publishers to address the backlist. The more we can stress compatibility between versions the better.
15:31:12 [Cristina_]
https://www.fondazionelia.org/en/research-and-development/european-accessibility-act-requirements-are-publishing-standards-as-epub-onix-and-schema-org-fully-compliant/
15:31:21 [tzviya]
ack George
15:31:56 [Bill_Kasdorf]
George: I think the page navigation feature in EPUB 3 is a requirement of the EU. That wouild mean EPUB 2 would not be acceptable in the EU.
15:32:06 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... Upgrading the backlist to EPUB 3 is advisable.
15:32:10 [avneeshsingh]
EU requriements mentions navigation, not specifically page navigation
15:32:13 [wendyreid]
q+
15:32:43 [George]
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15:32:53 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Tzviya: The legislation itself is very vague; doesn't get into detail like that.
15:32:56 [tzviya]
ack wendyreid
15:33:06 [Bill_Kasdorf]
George: I still think our guidance should still be to update to EPUB 3.
15:33:42 [Bill_Kasdorf]
wendyreid: Page level navigation--if the content has pagebreak locators in it--is WCAG A.
15:33:57 [avneeshsingh]
it is first stage in WCAG 2.2, we will try to push for more page requirements in laternew version of WCAG
15:33:58 [Ralph]
zakim, next item
15:33:58 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- Updating IDPF specs on idpf.org with in-place status -- taken up [from Ralph]
15:34:03 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Tzviya: Okay, there's still a lot to work out on the compliance issue.
15:34:07 [tzviya]
ack Ralph
15:34:18 [wendyreid]
https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG22/#page-break-navigation
15:34:33 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Ralph: Topic: IDPF domain
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15:34:55 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Ralph: We took a static snapshot when the W3C took over and that's now what we serve up.
15:35:23 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... The web has lots of links to those specs, including a set of specs that have not been worked on for a long time and may not be worked on again.
15:35:33 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... What should we do with those specs?
15:36:17 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... The proposal from Ivan, Matt, and I is to edit the static snapshot to add a message that "this document is obsolete."
15:36:35 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Our proposal is to do just that for all of those 13 orphan specs.
15:36:43 [George]
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15:37:07 [dauwhe_]
q+
15:37:26 [Bill_Kasdorf]
George: All of the specs that have been updated by W3C point to the new specs.
15:37:34 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Tzviya: yes.
15:38:02 [Bill_Kasdorf]
George: The specs would still be there if somebody wanted to work on it in the future, correct?
15:38:08 [ivan]
q+
15:38:10 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Ralph: Yes.
15:38:13 [tzviya]
ack dauwhe_
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15:38:51 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Dave: We need people to understand the status of these specs. E.g. we don't want folks to think you have to do what the indexing spec says in your EPUBs.
15:39:06 [tzviya]
ack ivan
15:39:44 [tzviya]
q+
15:39:52 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Ivan: I don't think we've put any such header in, e.g., EPUB 3.1. That one should have a header that points to 3.2 or 3.3.
15:39:59 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... Those should be added to the list as well.
15:40:13 [dauwhe_]
http://idpf.org/epub/31/
15:40:32 [dauwhe_]
http://idpf.org/epub/31/spec/epub-spec.html
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15:44:03 [Cristina_]
q+
15:44:24 [ivan]
q+
15:44:26 [tzviya]
ack me
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15:44:55 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Tzviya: There are many documents that carry such warnings.
15:45:17 [George]
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15:45:22 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Ralph: Yes, similar status messages should be added to 3.1 and other similar documents.
15:45:24 [tzviya]
ack Cristina_
15:45:59 [dauwhe_]
q+
15:46:21 [tzviya]
ack ivan
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15:47:09 [tzviya]
ack dauwhe_
15:47:38 [tzviya]
+1 to dauwhe_
15:47:58 [Bill_Kasdorf]
dauwhe: We really owe it to the community to do this.
15:48:25 [Ralph]
zakim, next item
15:48:25 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Updating the Publishing@W3C landing page -- taken up [from Ralph]
15:48:43 [George]
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15:48:58 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Ivan: It is very outdated. It's not clear to me who the target community is.
15:49:12 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... The links on the left are very useful to the people doing technical work.
15:49:24 [tzviya]
https://www.w3.org/publishing/
15:49:25 [Ralph]
-> https://www.w3.org/publishing/ Publishing@W3C
15:49:46 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... There are testimonials dating back to IDPF becoming part of W3C that are obsolete.
15:50:20 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... What should the message be? Who should we address? What's the target audience for that page?
15:50:32 [liisamk]
q+
15:50:39 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Tzviya: Does anybody go here? Do we need to even do this?
15:50:43 [George]
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15:50:59 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Ivan: The cheapest and easiest thing to do is to use it as an index page.
15:51:02 [tzviya]
ack lii
15:51:06 [George]
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15:51:10 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... That's not how it was developed initially.
15:51:29 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Liisa: This is valuable to people we'd like to have join the community.
15:51:41 [tzviya]
ack ra
15:51:42 [Ralph]
-> https://www.w3.org/ "Publishing" in the "Web and Industry" navbar
15:51:47 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... Having one page that is rah rah about this work is still a good thing, just needs to be updated.
15:52:23 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Ralph: Publishing has a prominent spot on the W3C home page; we should use this in some way.
15:52:35 [mateus]
q+
15:52:43 [George]
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15:52:49 [tzviya]
ack mateus
15:53:15 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Mateus: Do we have any analytics or other usage information? How high in search index results is this page?
15:53:19 [George]
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15:53:54 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... My gut feeling is there are 3 communities: people trying to find a spec; people interested in the current work; people who might want to actually contribute, feature requests, etc.
15:54:00 [tzviya]
q+
15:54:04 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... It would be good if we had some data about this.
15:54:17 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Ivan: I doubt that we have useful analytics.
15:54:18 [dauwhe_]
Yikes. Only top-10 google result for "EPUB" is https://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/ebook/
15:54:34 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Ralph: We don't do Google Analytics but we might have some kinds of access counts.
15:54:39 [dauwhe_]
s/top-10/top-10 for w3c/
15:54:41 [tzviya]
ack me
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15:54:57 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Tzviya: Agree with Mateus.
15:55:07 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... Currently it just looks like a wall of text and isn't helpful.
15:55:43 [George]
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15:55:50 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... Simple intro and very short explanation of what the groups do.
15:55:53 [Bill_Kasdorf]
q+
15:56:12 [tzviya]
ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:56:15 [Ralph]
scribe+
15:56:23 [George]
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15:56:25 [Ralph]
Bill: I like Mateus' structure and what Tzviya just said
15:56:37 [Ralph]
... I'd be happy to draft something as a starting point for discussion
15:56:42 [liisamk]
+1 to draft and edit via email
15:56:44 [Ralph]
Ralph: you're hired!
15:56:44 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Ralph: Go for it.
15:57:05 [Ralph]
zakim, next item
15:57:05 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- Around the Zoom Gallery -- taken up [from Ralph]
15:57:31 [mateus]
q+
15:57:43 [George]
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15:58:12 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Tzviya: The deadline for the videos is July 15. Ralph and I will be developing guidelines.
15:58:40 [tzviya]
ack mateus
15:58:40 [Ralph]
-> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Jx5VvkMTQ4EL0Xfb3pDMDUiccq79mmIPHetSRfbziFM/edit?usp=sharing Short community videos
15:58:44 [Bill_Kasdorf]
George: I attended a session yesterday about EPUB that was just terrible. They were businesses threatened by EPUB.
15:59:22 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Mateus: Next CG meeting in July will shift to a milestone orientation: specific timelines for TF goals to share concrete outcomes.
15:59:30 [Ralph]
Mateus++
15:59:32 [Ralph]
Xheng++
15:59:36 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... We hope this will help with transparency and draw in more interest.
15:59:43 [George]
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16:00:08 [Bill_Kasdorf]
... Looking forward to joint meeting with WG to look at how EPUB 4 would fit into the CG's role as incubator.
16:00:33 [Ralph]
zakim, end meeting
16:00:33 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been George, avneeshsingh, wendyreid, Ralph, Dave, Tzviya, Ivan, Liisa, Bill_Kasdorf, liisamk, Cristina, Mateus, Cristina_
16:00:36 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
16:00:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/11-pbgsc-minutes.html Zakim
16:00:39 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
16:00:43 [Zakim]
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19:21:07 [Ralph]
rrsagent, bye
19:21:07 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2021/06/11-pbgsc-actions.rdf :
19:21:07 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ralph figure out the calendaring issue that's annoying the EPUB WG [1]
19:21:07 [RRSAgent]
recorded in https://www.w3.org/2021/06/11-pbgsc-irc#T15-02-10