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13:46:14 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/06/10-epub-a11y-irc
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13:46:43 <avneeshsingh> zakim, this will be epub-a11y
13:46:43 <Zakim> ok, avneeshsingh
13:46:53 <avneeshsingh> present+
13:47:05 <avneeshsingh> chair: avneeshsingh
13:50:31 <avneeshsingh> ok @tzviya
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14:01:20 <wendyreid> present+
14:01:33 <MattChan> present+
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14:02:11 <CharlesL> present+
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14:02:47 <gpellegrino> present+
14:02:47 <MattChan> scribe+
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14:04:04 <Cristina> present+
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14:04:33 <avneeshsingh> Topic 1: Explainer document for the european union representatives.
14:04:38 <George> present+
14:04:54 <avneeshsingh> https://www.fondazionelia.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/20210609_european_accessibility_act_report_on_the_state_of_the_art_of_publishing_standards.pdf
14:05:08 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: cristina, gpellegrino, and luc updated this doc, and gpellegrino sent today
14:05:19 <MattChan> ... feedback from community has been incorporated
14:05:29 <avneeshsingh> q?
14:05:32 <mgarrish> present+
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14:05:45 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
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14:07:16 <Cristina> q+
14:07:27 <MattChan> ... if the Explainer has to be updated based on our discussion of the table, gpellegrino can do this
14:07:44 <MattChan> ... in the last section, we are explaining how standards are developed with openness, etc.
14:07:49 <avneeshsingh> q?
14:07:49 <gpellegrino> q+
14:07:56 <MattChan> ... is there a need to explain similar process for Schema metadata
14:07:58 <avneeshsingh> ack cris
14:08:22 <MattChan> Cristina: we decided to leave the table within the document even if the table exists elsewhere to make it more simple for commission
14:08:32 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
14:08:34 <George> George has joined #epub-a11y
14:08:51 <MattChan> ... if there are just minor changes to the document, we don't need to update the commission, this can be quite static now
14:09:09 <MattChan> ... and we refer to Schemas as W3C managed, but we're open to change in language if you want
14:09:16 <avneeshsingh> ack next
14:09:19 <MattChan> s/Schemas/Schema
14:09:34 <George> George has joined #epub-a11y
14:09:46 <MattChan> gpellegrino: can mgarrish help us with language to describe how Schema is managed?
14:10:16 <MattChan> ... and we don't explicitly say that those spec are from Schema
14:10:31 <avneeshsingh> we are discussing heading of Compliance with ICT TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS regulation (Annex II of 1025)  in the document
14:11:11 <CharlesL> q+
14:11:14 <gpellegrino> q+
14:11:25 <MattChan> Cristina: what is relevant from point of view of the commission is that the standard is managed, open (not copyrighted), and that there is a community around it
14:11:41 <MattChan> ... and that there is no already existing European standard
14:11:48 <George> George has joined #epub-a11y
14:12:17 <MattChan> mgarrish: it probably meets most of those, its managed on github, there are mailing lists for it
14:12:41 <MattChan> ... but it is highly controlled. Not sure that you can just join Schema.org
14:12:57 <MattChan> ... off the top of my head I don't have language to describe that
14:13:05 <MattChan> ... and even within W3C we can't cite Schema.org
14:13:34 <George> George has joined #epub-a11y
14:13:48 <MattChan> ... not considered maintained by official standards organization
14:13:55 <MattChan> Cristina: similar to Editur
14:14:18 <avneeshsingh> q?
14:14:41 <avneeshsingh> ack bill
14:14:45 <MattChan> ... it might be okay for us to be vague on this, mgarrish please have a look and let us know what you think
14:15:13 <MattChan> Bill_Kasdorf: i think the key point is that these things were developed collaboratively
14:15:17 <avneeshsingh> ack char
14:16:01 <MattChan> CharlesL: there are a handful of Schema.org properties we've introduced, and those are locked down, not changing
14:16:23 <MattChan> ... its the vocabulary that goes into those properties that have changed
14:16:41 <mgarrish> q+
14:16:47 <MattChan> ... in the CG we are trying to come up with a standardized way to introduce new values for these properties
14:16:53 <MattChan> ... and we control that
14:17:01 <MattChan> ... there's a distinction there
14:17:28 <MattChan> Bill_Kasdorf: yes, the properties are controlled by Schema, we specify the values
14:17:43 <avneeshsingh> ack gp
14:17:52 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: well, yes, for the accessibility values, not all the values
14:18:13 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
14:18:20 <MattChan> mgarrish: to clarify, where EUAA refers to metadata, I mapped to package metadata
14:18:45 <MattChan> s/mgarrish:/gpellegrino:
14:18:48 <avneeshsingh> ack mg
14:19:38 <Cristina> q+
14:19:45 <MattChan> mgarrish: for a number of years we had these values on a wikipage, but there was no formal control procedure
14:20:45 <MattChan> ... we may want to find a more formal process and place for these
14:21:06 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: is there any working group for Schema.org in W3C?
14:21:10 <MattChan> mgarrish: there's a CG
14:21:33 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: I will discuss with with people who are writing W3C process
14:21:55 <MattChan> ... back to main topic, do we have to explain how Schema.org meets the requirements of the Commission?
14:22:00 <gpellegrino> +1 to Matt :)
14:22:06 <avneeshsingh> ack bill
14:22:27 <MattChan> Bill_Kasdorf: i'd trust mgarrish to make that call about the Explainer
14:22:53 <MattChan> ... but it seems the most important thing is that the same metadata is used to describe website a11y and epub a11y
14:23:47 <avneeshsingh> ack cris
14:24:53 <MattChan> Cristina: i'm not sure the Commission will go into such detail. It is important for the document to be accurate, but I think what they really want is to be sure that the standards are already in line with EUAA, and what is already in practice
14:25:15 <MattChan> ... but yes, please, mgarrish have a look and let us know
14:25:34 <MattChan> ... and we can update the document in the future, but for the Commission I think what we have is enough
14:26:40 <MattChan> george: agreed. What we're proposing isn't controlled by some single company, not a proprietary standard
14:26:43 <avneeshsingh> q?
14:27:07 <MattChan> Cristina: we've also prepared an article that we have published on LIA website, but if Inclusive Publishing wants to use it or a shortened version of it, we are okay
14:27:19 <MattChan> ... it is a less technical summary of what is in the Explainer
14:27:27 <MattChan> ... we can share link
14:27:44 <avneeshsingh> Topic 2: Mapping of the requirements of European accessibility act to EPUB Accessibility specifications. If we are satisfied with it, then we should approve sending it to whole EPUB 3 WG for approving it as working group note.
14:28:00 <avneeshsingh> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/tree/main/reports/eu-a11y-mapping
14:28:15 <gpellegrino> https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/reports/eu-a11y-mapping/
14:28:27 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: can we approve in this group so that we can share with the bigger group?
14:29:19 <MattChan> gpellegrino: we might add more detail to the media overlay section
14:29:33 <MattChan> ... and maybe add some info about pagelists?
14:29:48 <MattChan> ... pagelists are not a requirement of EUAA, but it is a feature that can help accessibility
14:30:14 <gpellegrino> https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/reports/eu-a11y-mapping/#annex-I-section-IV-f-iii
14:30:23 <MattChan> ... we would add to this section
14:30:38 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: and that section is about navigation, which relates to pagelist
14:30:40 <avneeshsingh> q?
14:30:49 <MattChan> ... any objection to these two suggestions?
14:30:54 <tzviya> present+
14:31:07 <MattChan> ... okay, gpellegrino please make those changes
14:31:14 <avneeshsingh> (iv) Allowing alternative renditions of the content and its interoperability with a variety of assistive technologies, in such a way that it is perceivable, understandable, operable and robust
14:31:26 <CharlesL> q+
14:31:28 <gpellegrino> q+
14:31:32 <MattChan> ... this is a requirement of EUAA about renditions
14:31:51 <MattChan> ... it has two parts: 1) allows rendition, and 2) interop with variety of AT
14:32:34 <gpellegrino> https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/reports/eu-a11y-mapping/#annex-I-section-IV-f-iv
14:32:56 <MattChan> ... a number of WCAG principles address the interop point, but not necessarily the allows rendition point
14:32:57 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
14:33:40 <MattChan> gpellegrino: we have a problem with this statement in EUAA, because in epub world rendition has a specific meaning
14:33:51 <MattChan> ... but in EUAA, rendition means only the ability to get the same content in different ways
14:34:07 <MattChan> ... so I didn't link directly to our rendition spec
14:34:42 <MattChan> ... especially since other specs like for PDF, HTML, they also don't have renditions in the way epub spec means
14:34:48 <tzviya> q+ to suggest providing a definition of rendition
14:35:03 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: well HTML can have a link to a more accessible version of the webpage
14:35:46 <MattChan> CharlesL: I think we need to add more information to the headings of the mappings document, more than just the identifying section numbers
14:35:59 <MattChan> gpellegrino: i had a lot of trouble making this document readable
14:36:26 <MattChan> ... in each section I want to put the entirety of the EUAA text, but that text is too long to fit
14:36:35 <MattChan> ... if you have any ideas, please let me know
14:36:58 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
14:37:01 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
14:37:03 <wendyreid> ack Bill_Kasdorf
14:37:22 <MattChan> Bill_Kasdorf: the fundamental enabling technology for this is HTML because it is designed to be rendition independent
14:37:37 <Avneesh_> Avneesh_ has joined #epub-a11y
14:37:42 <MattChan> ... and epub content is HTML
14:37:45 <mgarrish> q+
14:37:50 <MattChan> ... makes braille readers possible, etc.
14:37:52 <wendyreid> ack tzviya
14:37:52 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to suggest providing a definition of rendition
14:38:16 <wendyreid> +1
14:38:17 <gpellegrino> +1 I can add a note
14:38:23 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
14:38:28 <MattChan> tzviya: i think the problem here is that word "rendition", and we can't change EUAA, but maybe our document can disambiguate how that term means something different in epub spec
14:38:49 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to WCAG as a whole
14:38:52 <MattChan> mgarrish: the EUAA rendition requirement is basically requiring WCAG, right?
14:39:55 <MattChan> ... I would refer to all of WCAG, instead of just particular pieces of it
14:40:26 <tzviya> +1 to mgarrish
14:40:34 <MattChan> Avneesh_: so what do we think about 1) referring to the 4 principles of WCAG, and 2) disambiguating the term rendition?
14:40:39 <wendyreid> q?
14:40:41 <MattChan> gpellegrino: yes, agree. I can do that.
14:40:49 <Avneesh_> Topic 3: Review guidance on success criterion 1.3.2 :
14:41:02 <Avneesh_> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1695
14:41:37 <Avneesh_> actual text is at:
14:41:40 <Avneesh_> https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/a11y-tech/#access-001
14:42:09 <MattChan> mgarrish: this is about meaningful sequence of content, and meaningful sequence of documents
14:42:38 <MattChan> ... sequence of documents isn't specifically an a11y issue, it's a basic requirement for the epub to function
14:42:51 <gpellegrino> q+
14:43:23 <gpellegrino> q-
14:43:25 <Avneesh_> q?
14:43:29 <gpellegrino> q+
14:43:33 <MattChan> ... going into spine ordering and all this other stuff in this part of the Techniques might be irrelevant here
14:44:41 <CharlesL> q+
14:45:00 <Avneesh_> ack gp
14:45:19 <MattChan> ... maybe we can just strip this stuff
14:45:40 <MattChan> gpellegrino: does it also apply to the hierarchical order of the headings?
14:46:13 <MattChan> gpellegrino: I don't think that's an issue for this section, that would fall under headings
14:46:29 <MattChan> s/gpellegrino:/mgarrish:
14:46:57 <MattChan> mgarrish: this is more about having the reading order matching the visual sequence of the epub
14:47:37 <MattChan> Avneesh_: so we keep statement that the logical reading order applies across the epub, but leave out the stuff about spine, etc.
14:48:54 <Avneesh_> q?
14:49:18 <Avneesh_> ack charl
14:49:43 <MattChan> CharlesL: how would this affect choose your own adventure style books where you might not have a logical progression?
14:50:00 <MattChan> mgarrish: I think that's again a separate issue
14:50:30 <tzviya> q+
14:50:45 <MattChan> ... in that example, there's still a reading order, its just that you decide that order based on your ability to access the links
14:50:55 <Avneesh_> q?
14:52:04 <tzviya> ack me
14:52:05 <MattChan> tzviya: this just explicitly spells out what most publishers do anyway, so there should be no problem with removing the example about the spine
14:52:18 <Avneesh_> proposed: approve request in issue #1695
14:52:34 <tzviya> +1
14:52:36 <gpellegrino> +1
14:52:37 <MattChan> +1
14:52:39 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
14:52:44 <Will> +1
14:52:48 <Cristina> +1
14:53:04 <wendyreid> +!
14:53:06 <wendyreid> +1
14:53:18 <Avneesh_> resolved
14:53:28 <MattChan> TOPIC: AOB?
14:53:35 <tzviya> q+
14:53:53 <mgarrish> q+
14:53:58 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG22/#changelog
14:54:18 <Avneesh_> ack tzviya
14:54:19 <MattChan> tzviya: there's a call for review of WCAG 2.2, they are requesting comment by tomorrow, but this isn't the final round of revisions
14:54:24 <Avneesh_> ack mg
14:55:06 <MattChan> Avneesh_: we'll defer discussion of a11y note in the main group to next week's meeting then, since we have to make revisions
14:55:34 <MattChan> ... okay thank you everyone
14:55:59 <Avneesh_> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:55:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/10-epub-a11y-minutes.html Avneesh_
14:57:31 <Avneesh_> zakim, bye
14:57:31 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been avneeshsingh, wendyreid, MattChan, CharlesL, gpellegrino, Cristina, George, mgarrish, Bill_Kasdorf, tzviya, !
14:57:31 <Zakim> Zakim has left #epub-a11y
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14:58:04 <Avneesh_> zakim, leave
15:00:11 <wendyreid> rrsagent, make logs public