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12:54:47 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), wendyreid
12:55:01 <wendyreid> meeting: FXL Accessiblity TF Telco June 8, 2021
12:55:07 <wendyreid> date: 2021-06-08
12:55:11 <wendyreid> chair: wendyreid
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13:00:06 <gpellegrino> present+
13:00:29 <MattChan> present+
13:00:41 <wendyreid> present+
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13:01:35 <MattChan> scribe+
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13:01:43 <CharlesL> present+
13:01:45 <wendyreid> https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/fxl-a11y/
13:02:04 <MattChan> wendyreid: update: the outline document has now been updated with content
13:02:42 <MattChan> ... there are some issues with markdown (esp. with images), but otherwise it seems to be working
13:03:07 <Hadrien> Hadrien has joined #epub-fxl
13:03:19 <Ken_Jones> q+
13:03:22 <wendyreid> ack Ken_Jones
13:03:39 <Ken_Jones> https://demo.colibrio.com/?publication_url=https://www.circularsoftware.com/samples/DonKomarechka/macro-book-48pp-section_IDexport.epub
13:03:48 <MattChan> Ken_Jones: i've got some sample content that i mentioned last week from Don Komarechka
13:04:03 <MattChan> ... should be viewable in your browser
13:04:15 <Hadrien> present+
13:04:41 <MattChan> ... its got double columns, technical illustrations (e.g. comparative images, table as an image)
13:05:29 <MattChan> ... pg 380 has a full-bleed two-page image
13:06:07 <MattChan> ... might be interesting to work on together, to put into good reading order, with descriptions
13:06:24 <MattChan> ... right now it has come straight out of INDD
13:06:52 <MattChan> ... this is just a section, be we are allowed to use as much of it as we want
13:07:10 <wendyreid> q?
13:07:12 <MattChan> wendyreid: yes, some of these will be good examples for demonstrating techniques
13:07:21 <CharlesL> q+
13:07:21 <MattChan> s/be we/but we
13:07:25 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:07:41 <Rachel_Osolen> q+
13:07:48 <MattChan> CharlesL: on the tables, our recommendation has always been to take out the image and create the equivalent table with CSS styling
13:08:25 <wendyreid> ack Rachel_Osolen
13:08:45 <MattChan> ... for more complicated tables a solution is to have a link out to a separate page with a full-blown table, and then with link back to the main book content
13:09:02 <MattChan> Rachel_Osolen: agree, and I can help with examples of alt-text
13:09:39 <MattChan> ... and there is also already good documentation about how to describe images in a series, and how to describe images in a spread
13:09:56 <MattChan> wendyreid: yes, the tables documentation somewhat bled over into alt-text
13:10:15 <MattChan> ... so the next section we should write is a comprehensive guide on how to write alt-text
13:10:18 <CharlesL> q+
13:10:21 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:10:30 <MattChan> Rachel_Osolen: i can take that on, and anyone who wants to help is welcome
13:11:08 <MattChan> CharlesL: i can help. Diagram Center has lots of examples. We have an image description sample book that we did with help from BrailleNet
13:11:30 <MattChan> ... we also have POET, which is a training guide for writers of alt-text
13:11:42 <Ken_Jones> q+
13:11:45 <wendyreid> ack Ken_Jones
13:12:02 <MattChan> Ken_Jones: should we choose this document to make as fully accessible as we can?
13:12:04 <gpellegrino> q+
13:12:12 <Rachel_Osolen> q+
13:12:13 <CharlesL> q+
13:12:16 <MattChan> ... so how about we draft some alt-text for this document?
13:12:41 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:12:51 <MattChan> wendyreid: both. We want to have the guidance document explain how to write, and then refer to our examples
13:13:15 <MattChan> gpellegrino: i would focus on making it accessible from HTML and CSS point of view, but not focus so much on the content
13:13:25 <wendyreid> ack Rachel_Osolen
13:13:52 <MattChan> ... the actual text descriptions might be a little out of scope. We're not advising on how to create tech to write alt-text
13:14:20 <Hadrien> q+
13:14:48 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:15:31 <MattChan> Rachel_Osolen: We should focus on FXL. And there are resources out there for cases where there are full page images across spread, images of text, images with text embedded alongside complex diagrams
13:16:28 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:16:33 <MattChan> CharlesL: we can have best practices reflected with examples drawn from multiple different types of sources (children's books, cookbook, etc.)
13:16:50 <MattChan> ... and then we should also have an actual epub containing all the examples
13:17:22 <MattChan> Hadrien: at DeMarque, we see a lot of comics/manga, then children's, then non-fiction/cookbooks, etc.
13:17:49 <MattChan> ... as a group are we strictly trying to address the best practice sorts of things, or if we are trying to tackle some of the more difficult genres
13:18:01 <MattChan> ... e.g. for manga, just alt-text wouldn't work
13:18:19 <MattChan> ... in some of our past meetings we talked about alternate style sheets
13:18:50 <MattChan> ... this wouldn't work for the most complex cases either, and it is also problematic from RS perspective, as we don't have the ability to trigger these alternate CSS
13:19:00 <MattChan> ... one possible solution is to have spine alternates
13:19:11 <MattChan> ... this seems easiest to implement from RS perspective
13:19:24 <MattChan> ... where does the group stand on that?
13:19:56 <MattChan> wendyreid: we're talking about alternate CSS, but it doesn't differ too much from spine alternates, but because its still so early in our design, we haven't been very specific yet
13:20:07 <MattChan> ... this is still very open to discussion
13:20:32 <CharlesL> q+
13:20:34 <MattChan> ... re. comics, agreed that it is very complex in terms of formatting, and there's much more to discuss there
13:20:36 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:20:51 <MattChan> CharlesL: on the manga and comics, do we have any leads on getting example content?
13:20:54 <Ken_Jones> q+
13:21:26 <MattChan> ... and does the flow change (e.g. can it go from left to right to vertical, are there other types of reading orders?)
13:22:07 <MattChan> wendyreid: yes, reading directionality of the page can change from page to page, subject to a general flow (either left to right, or right to left)
13:22:12 <wendyreid> ack Ken_Jones
13:22:43 <MattChan> Ken_Jones: i've started writing the section on navigation, and there's region-based navigation that is in the standard, but little supported
13:22:51 <CharlesL> q+
13:22:54 <MattChan> ... we could talk about using that to guide reading?
13:23:04 <Ken_Jones> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper%26Carrot
13:23:06 <MattChan> ... would help with small screen reading, and visually impaired reading
13:23:40 <Hadrien> q+
13:23:43 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:23:43 <MattChan> ... link is to free comic that we can draw examples from
13:24:26 <MattChan> Hadrien: region-based is part of spec, but its also mostly implemented by Barnes and Noble, maybe one other
13:24:42 <MattChan> ... it relied a lot on renditions, separate XML documents, and was never widely adopted for authoring
13:25:13 <MattChan> ... region-based navigation is widely relied upon, but everyone does it in their own separate way
13:25:34 <MattChan> ... the spec method is complicated, and maybe relies too much on multiple renditions
13:26:25 <MattChan> ... also, maybe not much desire to standardize out in industry today
13:26:51 <MattChan> wendyreid: agree, spec is complicated, especially for authoring
13:27:13 <MattChan> ... tools are not widely available
13:27:15 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:27:40 <MattChan> CharlesL: a group at Benetech India is augmenting children's picture books by augment each page with audio on each page
13:27:59 <Ken_Jones> q+
13:28:04 <wendyreid> ack Ken_Jones
13:28:04 <MattChan> ... the human narration also includes the alt-text
13:28:14 <MattChan> ... we could mention that as a solution
13:28:36 <gpellegrino> q+
13:28:42 <MattChan> Ken_Jones: in the same way that film can also be audio described, maybe that would be a solution for comics
13:28:42 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:29:18 <Hadrien> q+
13:29:33 <Ken_Jones> q+
13:29:37 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:29:46 <MattChan> gpellegrino: one issue is that we'd be imposing a reading order. It works for video, but in a comic book this is not so. Readers find it important that they can choose the order
13:30:04 <MattChan> Hadrien: not sure I agree. We're talking about adapting content, which involves interpretation.
13:30:49 <MattChan> ... so for comic, each page could have HTML with semantic structure to indicate where you are
13:31:11 <wendyreid> ack Ken_Jones
13:31:14 <MattChan> ... it could also be used to provide information to RS, which could provide context
13:31:23 <MattChan> ... but it would be a lot of work for the author
13:31:27 <Rachel_Osolen> q+
13:31:43 <wendyreid> ack Rachel_Osolen
13:31:51 <MattChan> Ken_Jones: comics are story-based, which usually do have a logical sequence
13:32:03 <MattChan> wendyreid: has NNELS ever had comics requested?
13:32:34 <MattChan> Rachel_Osolen: I wrote a paper on this topic, and we have staff that are avid comics readers, so inside NNELS we've been discussing this topic
13:32:48 <MattChan> ... I can link to resources
13:33:12 <MattChan> ... there are people out there outside of the WGs that are working on innovative ways to make comics more accessible
13:33:38 <MattChan> ... the presentation I'm referring to also has first hand accounts of difficulties that readers are actually having with comics
13:34:08 <MattChan> ... at the time we were working within the confines of creating a DAISY book
13:34:21 <MattChan> ... so our research was about how to narrate visually-driven content
13:34:53 <MattChan> ... and there's been a lot of work done on web comics
13:35:16 <MattChan> ... mostly by way of how to draft text alternatives
13:35:36 <MattChan> ... and then there's a company working on making that text alternative navigable
13:36:44 <MattChan> wendyreid: link above is to a comic that is accessible via a number of different modalities (closed captioning, high contrast, translations, change text size)
13:37:02 <Hadrien> q+
13:37:03 <MattChan> ... author felt that it was a cool experiment, but that it was a lot of work
13:37:10 <MattChan> ... unsure that it was workable for a whole book
13:37:24 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:37:25 <MattChan> ... we might not be able to do complete what this example implements, but we could take some ideas
13:38:11 <MattChan> Hadrien: most of the time this content is produced in bitmaps, and there is not a lot of work done in terms of structure beyond reading order
13:38:25 <MattChan> ... even pagelists are sometimes not very useful in these types of books
13:38:43 <MattChan> ... but to have something that is widely adopted, it must be compatible with this sort of workflow
13:39:03 <MattChan> ... and it would have to be able to be added to this workflow at the end
13:39:31 <wendyreid> https://www.w3.org/TR/media-frags/
13:39:36 <MattChan> ... there is a spec called Media Fragments at W3C, which allows you to refer to a rectangle in an image
13:40:27 <MattChan> ... you can image left and right pages, but with TTS to read the HTML content and with media fragments to locate the HTML within the image
13:40:56 <MattChan> ... advantage of this is that it relies on existing web-technology without creating anything new
13:41:09 <MattChan> ... and it doesn't require authors to change the way they author
13:42:10 <MattChan> wendyreid: our documentation is primarily aimed at guiding the primary authoring stage, since we want people to start thinking about accessibility, but it can also guide processing the results of authoring
13:42:23 <Hadrien> q+
13:42:28 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:42:40 <MattChan> ... I also want to experiment with web technology like grid, flexbox, or even media fragments to see what can be done
13:43:13 <MattChan> Hadrien: with my RS hat on, there's still a lot of inconsistency in terms of how to implement FXL
13:43:25 <MattChan> ... I see that being an issue
13:43:49 <MattChan> ... anything that doesn't change the way FXL is handled, but is more of an addition, has a better chance of uptake
13:44:14 <MattChan> wendyreid: so Rachel_Osolen and CharlesL will work on alt-text best practices section
13:44:58 <MattChan> ... we're going to use Ken_Jones's sample from the photography book, we probably want to pull out some representative pages (e.g. one with the table, page 37 with the group of images)
13:45:07 <MattChan> ... Ken_Jones to work on navigation section
13:45:13 <Hadrien> "Page Blanche" could be used as a sample as well: https://github.com/IDPF/epub3-samples/tree/main/30/page-blanche
13:45:33 <MattChan> ... I will try to get my hand on more sample comics content (maybe with more complex formatting)
13:46:22 <Ken_Jones> q+
13:46:24 <MattChan> ... and we also still have the experiments
13:46:25 <wendyreid> ack Ken_Jones
13:46:51 <MattChan> Ken_Jones: looking at the media fragments, they seem similar to region-based navigation
13:46:59 <Hadrien> q+
13:47:11 <MattChan> ... is there something about sync navigation that also integrates with region-based navigation
13:47:28 <MattChan> ... they're both existing web technology
13:47:28 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:48:00 <MattChan> Hadrien: region-based navigation was informed by media fragments, and extended
13:48:17 <MattChan> media-fragments can only be rectangles, but region-based navigation can have different shapes
13:48:39 <wendyreid> https://iiif.io/
13:48:50 <MattChan> ... but region-based navigation isn't widely implemented, where as media-fragments is used (e.g. by IIIF)
13:49:24 <MattChan> ... in that way media-fragments aligns more closely with the web
13:50:01 <Ken_Jones> q+
13:50:04 <wendyreid> ack Ken_Jones
13:50:04 <MattChan> wendyreid: AOB?
13:50:20 <CharlesL> q+
13:50:28 <MattChan> Ken_Jones: would alt-text be enough to describe each fragment? Or would there also be a description of the overall scene?
13:50:42 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:51:09 <Rachel_Osolen> q+
13:51:26 <MattChan> CharlesL: i think that would be the bare minimum for WCAG A, but we could raise the bar by adding a scene description, but it really does depend on the page
13:51:47 <wendyreid> ack Rachel_Osolen
13:51:50 <MattChan> ... there are some pages where just describing the fragments could lose some of the meaning in the context
13:52:17 <MattChan> Rachel_Osolen: for comics, one thing i've found is that you do need that extra level of the scene description
13:53:00 <MattChan> ... this is the way that NNELS has approached it: 1) whole page, 2) each panel, 3) and then try to break apart each panel
13:53:03 <CharlesL> q+
13:53:42 <Ken_Jones> q+
13:54:15 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:54:15 <MattChan> ... there's a lot of additional information in the scene that is relevant to comics, such as the size of the panel, shape of panel, border, positioning, etc.
13:54:51 <wendyreid> ack Ken_Jones
13:55:04 <MattChan> CharlesL: the author's notes to the illustrator are super important for describing comics. Would be great to have these, but difficult to get
13:55:28 <Rachel_Osolen> q+
13:55:31 <wendyreid> ack Rachel_Osolen
13:55:36 <MattChan> Ken_Jones: do we have samples of any of these?
13:56:10 <MattChan> Rachel_Osolen: these are more experiments, I could share those
13:56:27 <MattChan> ... I can also share the paper I wrote related to the DAISY comic book
13:56:34 <Ken_Jones> q+
13:56:39 <wendyreid> ack Ken_Jones
13:56:46 <MattChan> ... and I'll also reach out to that company working on navigation by headings for comics
13:57:06 <CharlesL> q+
13:57:12 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:57:15 <MattChan> Ken_Jones: is ARIA describedby something we can use, potentially for scene descriptions
13:58:04 <MattChan> CharlesL: there's ARIA details that is starting to get some support, describedby is not what we want here because that strips out all the HTML semantics, i think
13:58:26 <MattChan> wendyreid: describedby stores an ID to some other HTML element
13:58:38 <MattChan> ... you do lose some semantics in doing that
13:58:49 <MattChan> CharlesL: same idea with ARIA labelledby
13:59:48 <MattChan> wendyreid: okay, you have some tasks, we'll talk again in 2 weeks
13:59:54 <MattChan> ... thank you all for coming!
14:00:32 <CharlesL> CharlesL has left #epub-fxl
14:11:29 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:11:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/08-epub-fxl-minutes.html ivan
14:26:20 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
14:26:20 <RRSAgent> I see no action items