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17:28:43 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/06/08-aria-apg-irc
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17:29:25 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make log public
17:29:33 <Matt_King> zakim, clear agenda
17:29:33 <Zakim> agenda cleared
17:29:58 <Matt_King> MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
17:30:04 <Matt_King> present+
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17:59:55 <jesdaigle> present+
18:03:22 <Jemma> present+
18:03:29 <Jemma> rrsagent, make minutes
18:03:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/08-aria-apg-minutes.html Jemma
18:04:00 <Jemma> agenda?
18:05:02 <siri> siri has joined #aria-apg
18:05:18 <Jemma> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/June-8%2C-2021-Agenda
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18:07:08 <MarkMcCarthy> present+
18:07:41 <jongund> present+ jongund
18:09:32 <Jemma> Topic: APG redesign project update
18:09:53 <Jemma> APG redesign repo was set up and add various report and design mock up
18:10:09 <Jemma> we can talk about  the update at next meeting
18:10:24 <Jemma> zakim, choose a victm
18:10:24 <Zakim> I don't understand 'choose a victm', Jemma
18:10:31 <Jemma> zakim, choose a victim
18:10:31 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose jongund
18:11:03 <Jemma> https://github.com/w3c/apg-redesign
18:11:49 <Jemma> issac: wireframes does not include new features yet. Info architecture will be the first step
18:12:24 <jongund> scribe: jongund
18:12:44 <sarah_higley> sarah_higley has joined #aria-apg
18:12:46 <sarah_higley> present+
18:13:02 <jongund> TOPIC: Jump Tp
18:13:10 <Jemma> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1923
18:13:41 <jongund> MK: The main issue is that it really works well for everyone by VO
18:13:46 <Jemma> Matt's concern - https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1923#pullrequestreview-673670353
18:14:00 <jongund> MK: It kind of works with Chrome if you use pass through key
18:14:56 <jongund> MK: If we are going to model it, we don't want to leave some people out
18:15:07 <isaacdurazo> present+
18:15:22 <jongund> MK: Suggest using JS for creating a hot key
18:15:49 <jongund> MK: There maybe conflicts with examples, or other artifacts
18:16:28 <jongund> SH: We had a discussion, that accesskeys aren't great, users are not familiar with accesskeys, scripting makes it more consistent
18:16:45 <jongund> Siri: If you use a modifier...
18:16:58 <jongund> MK: We will definitely use a modifier
18:17:35 <jongund> MK: We could use ALT+zero, not super intuitive, but ALT is used for accesskeys in Chrome
18:18:26 <jongund> JG: Accesskey information is announced by screen readers
18:18:45 <jongund> MK: Does the screen reader add it to the label
18:18:53 <jongund> SH: It is not to do with authoring
18:19:09 <jongund> Siri: It automatically adds the shortcut key
18:20:17 <siri> +1 sarah
18:20:26 <jongund> MK: I am not sure who is doing it, we have aria-hotkey, but that doesn't work with VO either
18:20:47 <jongund> SH: We could add shortkey to the button label
18:21:04 <jongund> JG: We already have the tooltip and we could add back in the aria-describedby
18:21:29 <jongund> MK: It could get rid of the tooltip if it was in the menu button label
18:22:49 <jongund> MK: We have some examples that were not looking at modifier keys
18:22:56 <jongund> MK: We could make a terst for that
18:23:22 <jongund> MK: It is on a list that we could test, that do not have a corresponding item in the keyboard table
18:23:50 <jongund> MK: We will script ALT+0 and include the Keyboard assignment in the name of the button
18:24:02 <jongund> MK: It is a button
18:24:48 <jongund> JK: Status of review of the example, done with my review, we need other reviews
18:25:27 <jongund> JK: When I use Jump To click it does not focus the the target
18:25:42 <jongund> MK: You want a keyboard focus ring on the target item
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18:26:12 <jongund> JK: When you use the keyboard you get a focus ring and with the mouse no focus ring
18:26:20 <siri> present +
18:26:21 <jongund> MK: You are talking about after you click
18:26:37 <Matt_King> present+
18:26:38 <jongund> MK: You can't tell you navigate to the item
18:27:44 <jongund> Siri: If you have a skip link it doesn't show focus
18:27:52 <jongund> JK: I don't understand
18:28:20 <jongund> Siri: When the focus is shown on the main element, it is not interactive
18:28:58 <jongund> JK: The sighted user gets different experience using the mouse and the keyboard
18:29:39 <jongund> MK: I am curious about this the visual experience
18:30:10 <jongund> JK: The keyboard way it works as I expected
18:31:59 <jongund> JG: Functionally it still works the same with the mouse and the keyboard, the only difference us the focus highlight
18:32:37 <jongund> JG: I will look at why the focus ring does not show with the mouse
18:33:05 <Jemma> Topic: HTML Range Slider Example
18:33:24 <jongund> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1757
18:33:29 <Jemma> HTML Temperature Slider PR #1757
18:33:50 <jongund> JG: We need reviewers
18:34:01 <jongund> MK: We need to have reviewers assigned
18:34:10 <jongund> JG: Example is ready for review
18:34:22 <jongund> ... assigning reviewers ..
18:35:20 <jongund> JG: The JS is short, but the CSS is more complicated
18:36:42 <jongund> MK: In this case, I am still kind of torn about keyboard documentation
18:36:58 <Jemma> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/aria-practices/range-thermostat/examples/slider/range-temperature.html
18:36:59 <jongund> JG: I put keyboard support under accessibility features
18:37:47 <jongund> MK: I wonder to stay with our template, and go ahead and document it, but say the keyboard support is provided by the browser
18:38:26 <Jemma> Keyboard support for the temperature control is provided by the native keyboard support for the input[type="range"] element (i.e. Up/Down Arrow, Page Up/Down, Home and End keys).
18:38:29 <jongund> MK: Is page up and page down different on browsers?
18:38:36 <jongund> JG: probably
18:38:55 <jongund> MK: I am curious what the difference is between chrome and safari browsers
18:39:05 <jongund> MK: I think we should document it
18:39:55 <jongund> MK: From a functional review to do?  We can't change the function of the browser, so we are testing is the changing the valuetext
18:40:23 <jongund> JG: SHould I put the keyboard table back in?
18:40:31 <jongund> MK: Yes, but I will make some edits
18:40:49 <Jemma> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/Pull-Request-Review-Process#functional_review
18:41:01 <Jemma> Functional review
18:41:01 <Jemma> Exercise the example with keyboard, mouse, and touch in Chrome, Firefox, and Safari to ensure:
18:41:01 <Jemma> 
18:41:01 <Jemma> Keyboard behaviors match the pattern documentation.
18:41:01 <Jemma> Mouse and touch behaviors match expected norms.
18:42:35 <jongund> MK: We don't have any keyboard events
18:43:22 <jongund> JG: The browser change evant it is not triggered by key down events
18:44:38 <siri> diff between browser chg event and keyboard chg event?
18:44:47 <jongund> MK: So when you press the arrows the value doesn't change?
18:45:21 <jongund> SH: The input event may fire on keyboard events
18:45:46 <jongund> SH: Look on the input event
18:45:52 <jongund> MK: Who's spec is that?
18:46:05 <Jemma> this is the code sarah mentioned,
18:46:06 <Jemma>  this.rangeNode.addEventListener('keydown', this.onRangeChange.bind(this));
18:46:10 <jongund> SH: Good question, I am not sure where it is
18:46:42 <Jemma> this.rangeNode.addEventListener('change', this.onRangeChange.bind(this));
18:47:41 <jongund> SH: There is change events differ on input controls, text input they are pretty much the same, when they are different change occurs less than input event
18:47:53 <jongund> MK: JG please try input event
18:48:26 <jongund> SH: I will not say input is more consistent between browser
18:48:46 <jongund> MK: We need to test on all three platform
18:48:56 <jongund> BG: It might work on iOS
18:49:07 <jongund> BG: Is it in the APG right now?
18:49:21 <jongund> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/aria-practices/range-thermostat/examples/slider/range-temperature.html
18:49:36 <Matt_King> present+ Bryan
18:49:47 <jongund> BG: I need to build one soon
18:50:00 <jongund> JG: I need to make changes to it
18:50:27 <jongund> MK: There is a fair amount of functional review, and I will test with iOS
18:50:58 <jongund> JG: I will try to test on all the platforms, just curious
18:51:31 <jongund> MK: What about high contrast?
18:52:28 <jongund> JG: We have a focus ring around the thumb
18:52:47 <jongund> SH: You have to guess by the position
18:53:04 <jongund> MK: So it makes sense in making custom sliders, you can add more features
18:53:29 <jongund> SH: The track is tiny and hard to use the mouse with
18:54:26 <jongund> SH: If you use the pseudo properties, you cannot style the background color of the rail
18:54:31 <Jemma> https://www.a11ywithlindsey.com/blog/creating-accessible-range-slider-css
18:54:54 <jongund> MK: It is easy to add a range input, but difficult to style
18:55:28 <jongund> TOPIC: Unicode Symbols in CSS Generated Content
18:55:47 <Jemma> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Unicode_Character_with_an_On-Screen_Text_Alternative
18:55:59 <jongund> JK: According to WCAG it is not recommended to use unicode
18:56:54 <jongund> JK: Practical issue is up and down arrow, for indicating collapsed and expanded
18:57:41 <jongund> MK: Is it something we want to show people how to make accessible
18:58:00 <jongund> JK: I don't think we should unicode in HTML or CSS
18:58:14 <jongund> MK: It is strictly a visual thing
18:58:30 <Jemma> Description
18:58:30 <Jemma> The objective of this technique is to show how to provide a visible, text alternative for an Unicode character that conveys information.
18:58:30 <Jemma> 
18:58:30 <Jemma> Some versions of assistive technologies will announce CSS generated content, as well as specific Unicode characters. However, because the announcement may be inaccurate aria-hidden="true" is used so it will be ignored by assistive technologies. An on-screen text alternative is added.
18:58:31 <jongund> MK: CM was leaning toward this
18:58:48 <jongund> MK: Any other comments on use of unicode?
18:59:14 <jongund> Siri: You have to use aria-hidden if it is not useful
19:00:00 <jongund> MK: Are we using aria-hidden, we are using css properties to make arrows
19:00:14 <Jemma> this is the code we are using
19:00:17 <Jemma> .disclosure-nav button::after {
19:00:17 <Jemma>   content: "";
19:00:17 <Jemma>   border-bottom: 1px solid #000;
19:00:17 <Jemma>   border-right: 1px solid #000;
19:00:17 <Jemma>   height: 0.5em;
19:00:18 <Jemma>   margin-left: 0.75em;
19:00:18 <Jemma>   width: 0.5em;
19:00:18 <Jemma>   transform: rotate(45deg);
19:00:57 <jongund> JG: We are currently using aria-hidden or using borders to generate arrows
19:01:23 <jongund> MK: BG what is your thoughts on using unicode characters
19:01:37 <jongund> BG: I don't recommend the use of unicode characters
19:02:03 <jongund> MK: We don't want ATs to pick them up
19:02:16 <jongund> MK: These are arrows to indicate state in menus
19:02:40 <jongund> BG: We will override using accname techniques
19:03:06 <jongund> BG: We also use aria-hidden
19:03:35 <jongund> MK: You actually use unicode characters
19:04:05 <jongund> BG: It is useful in some cases, but you need to prevent exposure
19:04:40 <jongund> SH: Not a big fan of using aria-label to override, translation issues, use aria-hidden
19:05:05 <jongund> SH: It looks like we are not using the aria-hidden
19:05:21 <jongund> rrsagent, draft minutes
19:05:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/08-aria-apg-minutes.html jongund
19:05:25 <Jemma> rrsagent, make minutes
19:05:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/08-aria-apg-minutes.html Jemma
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