14:07:21 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag-act
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14:07:24 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:07:24 <Zakim> Meeting: Accessibility Conformance Testing Teleconference
14:07:29 <Wilco> present+
14:07:32 <anne_thyme_> present+
14:07:33 <Francis_Storr> present+
14:07:33 <bruce_bailey> present+
14:07:34 <trevor> present+
14:07:36 <jeanne> present+
14:07:37 <Tobias> present+
14:07:37 <kathyeng> present+
14:07:39 <Makoto> present+
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14:07:50 <EmmaJ_PR> present+
14:08:09 <jeanne> agenda?
14:08:16 <jeanne> agenda+ What terms need to be defined?
14:08:16 <jeanne> agenda+ Who will write which definition proposals for next week?
14:08:16 <jeanne> agenda+ Are there additional Exceptions for the Outcomes? How should they be structured?
14:08:16 <jeanne> agenda+ How to structured Expectations in the Method so it is clear which expectations must be met.
14:08:35 <jeanne> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vsp1V2hBpU6Y0vNt-AGP-Y6fOxx1-IjoKgBJ_3bPlfg/edit
14:08:50 <jeanne> OUtcomes proposal
14:09:04 <EmmaJ_PR> Zakim, take up next
14:09:04 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- What terms need to be defined? -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:09:04 <jeanne> Method <- https://docs.google.com/document/d/19FaJF_9V1CayeO92OiPpUil9USOTJWOPLdfgcOIJ6Fw/edit
14:09:08 <DavidASx_> DavidASx_ has joined #wcag-act
14:09:18 <DavidASx_> +1
14:09:39 <EmmaJ_PR> Jeanne: Ed said we need definitions that are unambiguous
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14:10:20 <EmmaJ_PR> Jeanne: for example, what would be an unambiguous definition of headings
14:10:52 <EmmaJ_PR> Jeanne: intention to have high level definitions with details for those wishing to dig deeper
14:11:38 <EmmaJ_PR> Jeanne: shared https://docs.google.com/document/d/19FaJF_9V1CayeO92OiPpUil9USOTJWOPLdfgcOIJ6Fw/edit
14:12:18 <EmmaJ_PR> Jeanne: interested to know what else needs to be defined that is within the draft Headings definition
14:12:48 <EmmaJ_PR> Jeanne: Bruce had a concern about using complete sentences.
14:13:05 <EmmaJ_PR> Jeanne: what else needs to be defined?
14:13:32 <SuzanneTaylor> q+
14:14:07 <anne_thyme_> q+
14:14:28 <EmmaJ_PR> Wilco: concerned "blocks of content" would never be met
14:14:40 <jeanne> ack Suz
14:15:14 <EmmaJ_PR> Suzanne: headings don't organise disorganised content. Active voice is easier to understand and forces clarity.
14:15:41 <DavidASx> q+
14:17:02 <EmmaJ_PR> Jeanne: asked Suzanne to experiment with wording
14:17:06 <jeanne> ack Anne
14:17:39 <EmmaJ_PR> Anne: definition doesn't mention headings, the thing being defined.
14:17:57 <jeanne> Topic: HOw to phrase the outcome
14:18:11 <Wilco> q+
14:18:46 <EmmaJ_PR> Anne: the word being defined should be in the phrase
14:18:50 <EmmaJ_PR> Jeanne: agrees
14:18:53 <jeanne> The topic phrase needs to be in the Outcome sentence
14:18:59 <jeanne> ack davi
14:20:14 <jeanne> Headings outline the content
14:20:24 <EmmaJ_PR> David: describes headings as providing an outline of the content rather than organising it
14:20:50 <jeanne> ack wilco
14:21:06 <EmmaJ_PR> Wilco: not sure what is being tested
14:22:21 <EmmaJ_PR> Wilco: "block of content" came from a definition for "repeated blocks of content" and maybe doesn't work as a stand alone definition as it is quite vague
14:23:22 <EmmaJ_PR> Jeanne: we are aware people take WCAG and strip out everything except steps - if outcomes will be turned into checklists want to include the reason within those outcomes
14:24:54 <EmmaJ_PR> Aim to build understanding of outcomes into the testing process
14:25:43 <EmmaJ_PR> Jeanne: AG process started with identified user needs. For headings that user needs was identified about 3 years ago.
14:27:53 <EmmaJ_PR> Jeanne: referenced WCAG 3.0 stuff... outcomes built on guidance built on user needs
14:29:42 <EmmaJ_PR> Jeanne: example, "headings allow readers to skim longer passages of text and choose which parts to read".
14:30:12 <EmmaJ_PR> Wilco: so who decides what headings are needed? the author?
14:30:30 <EmmaJ_PR> Wilco: if the author doesn't add headings are any needed?
14:30:50 <EmmaJ_PR> David: if an author has added headings, they should be coded correctly
14:30:58 <EmmaJ_PR> Jeanne: and visually distinct
14:31:31 <EmmaJ_PR> David: yes, so if author includes headings they should benefit all users equivalently
14:31:59 <EmmaJ_PR> David: if author chooses to have no headings all users have no headings
14:33:22 <EmmaJ_PR> Jeanne: the example we're looking at is about whether a heading describes the content it labels
14:33:38 <EmmaJ_PR> Anne: so perhaps that should be part of 2.4.6
14:33:48 <EmmaJ_PR> (related to)
14:34:43 <EmmaJ_PR> Anne: not sure if example outcome is about heading being descriptive or that there should be a certain number of headings
14:35:36 <EmmaJ_PR> Jeanne: headings should exist as appropriate to the platform technology, and they should label the content appropriately
14:38:32 <EmmaJ_PR> Emma: that implies 2 outcomes, one requiring at least one heading and the other about descriptiveness
14:39:19 <EmmaJ_PR> Wilco: do we want to encourage some form of heading structure?
14:39:55 <EmmaJ_PR> Anne: for non-text content that could be difficult
14:40:14 <EmmaJ_PR> Anne: Applications have a title instead of a heading
14:40:22 <bruce_bailey> q?
14:40:47 <EmmaJ_PR> Emma: would we not consider the title to be a form of heading?
14:41:21 <EmmaJ_PR> Bruce: Apps might use different elements to be headings to meet WCAG
14:42:46 <EmmaJ_PR> Emma: "heading" is a semantic concept, not only an HTML element
14:44:40 <bruce_bailey> Here is how wcag 2x address its use of label:
14:44:41 <bruce_bailey> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG22/#dfn-labels
14:44:50 <bruce_bailey> The term label is not limited to the label element in HTML.
14:44:52 <EmmaJ_PR> Wilco: heading could be semantic, presentational or functional
14:44:58 <DavidASx> For clarity my comments on author's discretion was in response to Wilco's comment about an author's creative work. I am fine for that being an exception and the norm being a requirement.
14:45:14 <bruce_bailey> wcag3 could do the same thin with "heading"
14:45:31 <bruce_bailey> s/thin with/thing with/
14:45:57 <bruce_bailey> A heading is a word, phrase, or sentence at the beginning of a written passage that explains what it's about. A heading is very similar to a title. A heading is similar to a caption, a line below a photograph that briefly explains it.
14:46:03 <EmmaJ_PR> A heading is a word, phrase, or sentence at the beginning of a written passage that explains what it's about. A heading is very similar to a title. A heading is similar to a caption, a line below a photograph that briefly explains it.  heading - Dictionary Definition : Vocabulary.comhttps://www.vocabulary.com › dictionary › heading
14:46:53 <EmmaJ_PR> Jared: It's hard to describe where to put headings in theory, but not that hard in practice.  You could always provide several examples of different content types to clarify what is meant in different scenarios.
14:48:18 <DavidASx> I agree that captions as headings are confusing.
14:49:48 <EmmaJ_PR> Emma: The BBC has headings on news articles, but also some kind of title or "heading" on media content
14:50:04 <jeanne> +1
14:51:15 <EmmaJ_PR> David: the idea that a heading is a phrase explaining the coming content. It might be easier to leave the specifics to the examples
14:51:59 <kathyeng> q+ to say headings identify the block of content that follows
14:52:03 <EmmaJ_PR> David: not sure about captions
14:52:21 <EmmaJ_PR> Trevor: not sure it makes it not a heading
14:53:01 <EmmaJ_PR> Jeanne: scope of WCAG3.0 is moving scope to more than just HTML, so could include title
14:53:20 <EmmaJ_PR> David: agree title and heading are similar enough
14:54:16 <EmmaJ_PR> Anne: wondering if the scope of what a heading covers/describes is being missed in the description
14:54:58 <EmmaJ_PR> David: if the concept of "block of content" allows for that, it should be ok
14:56:01 <EmmaJ_PR> Anne: h1 should describe all content until the next h1, not only the content until the next heading
14:57:15 <EmmaJ_PR> Wilco: do you need a semantic understanding of the content to understand what a heading applies to?
14:57:57 <EmmaJ_PR> Anne: we need outcomes to not be misinterpreted
14:59:38 <kathyeng> I also have to drop. My comment was to modify "outline" from the current outcome wording. Suggesting "identify" instead.
14:59:42 <EmmaJ_PR> Emma: refering back to the concept of headings outlining content, mentioning headings and subheadings would allow for different levels and headings within blocks of content
15:00:12 <EmmaJ_PR> Jeanne: if anyone needs access, email jeanne
15:00:41 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
15:00:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/07-wcag-act-minutes.html jeanne
15:02:13 <EmmaJ_PR> Welcome Makoto
15:02:37 <EmmaJ_PR> Jake: question about calendared time
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15:06:28 <EmmaJ_PR> Subheading ... 1 : a heading of a subdivision (as in an outline) 2 : a subordinate caption, title, or headline.  Subhead | Definition of Subhead by Merriam-Websterhttps://www.merriam-webster.com › dictionary › subhead
15:06:39 <EmmaJ_PR> bye all
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