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13:33:59 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/06/07-personalization-irc
13:34:01 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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13:34:03 <trackbot> Meeting: Personalization Task Force Teleconference
13:34:03 <trackbot> Date: 07 June 2021
13:34:13 <sharon> agenda?
13:34:33 <sharon> agenda+  i18n issue #144 (Review response) - https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/144
13:35:17 <sharon> agenda+ Diff of Content Module 1 - Working draft vs. Editors draft - https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-personalization-tf/2021Jun/att-0001/00-part (Sharon)
13:35:35 <sharon> agenda+ Update on the draft document for action-destination-purpose that will be referenced with an editors note (Matthew and John)
13:35:49 <sharon> agenda+ Content module 1 issues https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3A%221%29+content+module%22
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14:00:44 <JF> agenda?
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14:01:23 <JF> Present+
14:01:51 <janina> present+
14:01:54 <janina> scribe: janina
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14:02:12 <Roy> present+
14:02:21 <janina> sharon: Noting that effective immediately Lionel will be Co-Facilitator with Sharon. Lisa has stepped down.
14:02:34 <janina> zakim, take up item 3
14:02:34 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Update on the draft document for action-destination-purpose that will be referenced with an editors note (Matthew and John) -- taken up [from sharon]
14:02:40 <CharlesL> CharlesL has joined #personalization
14:02:50 <CharlesL> present+
14:03:13 <janina> jf: Recalls issue is whether or not to merge attributes
14:03:42 <janina> jf: We worked on use cases, possible duplication?
14:03:44 <janina> q+
14:04:04 <janina> jf: States goal as getting as many of our attributes as possible into HTML without a prefix
14:04:15 <janina> ack ja
14:05:06 <janina> janina: Recalls that group decision had been to go with prefixed only
14:05:14 <janina> jf: Disappointed, but issue is the same
14:05:19 <janina> janina: Agree re the issue
14:05:41 <janina> jf: Matthew and I landed on that "these are research questions."
14:06:05 <janina> jf: Goal is to get feedback both from authoring and implementation
14:06:15 <Matthew_Atkinson> q+
14:06:16 <janina> jf: Can we ask RQTF
14:07:01 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel scribing: 2 considerations in going to RQTF
14:07:14 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... They tend not to look at disambiguation.
14:07:30 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... They tend to support a literature-review focus, what has worked and what has not worked in the literature
14:07:49 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... Also RQTF is loaded recently.
14:08:07 <JF> Q?
14:08:07 <sharon> q?
14:08:36 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... Activity in XAUR, Captcha, Sync tolerances.... Loaded.
14:08:44 <sharon> ack Matthew_Atkinson
14:08:48 <Lionel_Wolberger> q+
14:09:05 <janina> matthew: Notes he's sent email pointing to wiki
14:09:12 <JF> Document in G-Docs: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aVnRu0tZE-hvQ4tTj1Genlno3b6H31KdAby7rrUmBRw/edit?skip_itp2_check=true&pli=1#heading=h.2ydr91se730e
14:09:20 <janina> matthew: includes proposed Ed Note to request feedback
14:09:28 <janina> matthew: Notes that would work for RQTF
14:09:30 <JF> All code examples in a single large table: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tdgXpteQMI5Uz9z271BhSV7W9WEit89iQzac28tPPKM/edit?skip_itp2_check=true&pli=1#gid=0
14:09:44 <janina> matthew: Not all the right formatting yet
14:09:44 <JF> ACTION: JF to add content to our wiki
14:09:45 <Lionel_Wolberger> Tells Matthew: I do not have access to the Google Doc
14:09:50 <janina> q+
14:09:54 <trackbot> Error creating an ACTION: could not connect to Tracker.  Please mail <sysreq@w3.org> with details about what happened.
14:10:07 <sharon> q?
14:10:19 <sharon> ack Lionel_Wolberger
14:10:35 <JF> Q+
14:10:46 <janina> lionel: Not clear about going to rQTF, though I like the direction of going for feedback
14:11:04 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: Notes conference submission to point to our work
14:11:49 <sharon> ack janina
14:12:13 <Lionel_Wolberger> Sharing my paper proposal is for this conference, https://inclusivedesign24.org/2021/
14:12:56 <sharon> q?
14:13:14 <Matthew_Atkinson> q+
14:14:53 <sharon> ack JF
14:14:59 <janina> jf: Agrees with Lionel on broadest agreement
14:15:26 <janina> jf: Recalls "white paper" is probably not right title, so it's how we ended up on "Research Questions."
14:15:45 <janina> jf: OK if RQTF can't, but it seemed colleagual to ask
14:16:14 <janina> jf: Wonders whether we want this resolved before CR.
14:16:35 <sharon> q?
14:16:45 <janina> jf: Goal is to get a decision before we're too far in the process to easily adapt to a change
14:17:14 <janina> jf: Notes that he and Matthew looked at this with code examples
14:17:17 <janina> q+
14:17:34 <sharon> ack Matthew_Atkinson
14:17:48 <Matthew_Atkinson> I emailed the doc (which features the big table at the end) to the list: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-personalization-tf/2021Jun/0004.html
14:18:01 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: Requests post to wiki
14:18:04 <janina> jf: Can do
14:18:54 <sharon> q?
14:19:38 <sharon> ack janina
14:20:23 <Lionel_Wolberger> scribe: Lionel
14:20:32 <sharon> q?
14:20:43 <JF> scribe: Lionel_Wolberger
14:20:44 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: The early implementations were clearly drafts
14:21:02 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... will a second CR be too late?
14:21:53 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... this CR will be enough for WHAT-WG to give us a prefix
14:22:42 <Lionel_Wolberger> JF: Matt's code examples surface the issue very clearly
14:22:48 <janina> jf: Notes Matthew's code all about making life easier for authoring
14:22:55 <sharon> q?
14:23:25 <janina> sharon: Believes we have agreed to get the paper into the wiki, and we'll look at Ed Note wording and close on it next week?
14:23:42 <JF> Q+
14:23:45 <janina> sharon: So, we probably all need a little time to get this done
14:24:01 <janina> jf: Will post today
14:24:17 <janina> jf: Offers to add candidate Ed Note in github repo as well
14:24:19 <janina> sharon: Sure
14:24:36 <janina> zakim, next item
14:24:36 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, janina
14:24:40 <janina> q?
14:24:47 <JF> ACTION: add Editor's note to Module 1 that points to Research Questions wiki page
14:24:47 <trackbot> Error finding 'add'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/task-forces/personalization/track/users>.
14:24:48 <janina> zakim, next item
14:24:48 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, janina
14:24:52 <janina> ack jf
14:24:55 <janina> zakim, next item
14:24:55 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- i18n issue #144 (Review response) - https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/144 -- taken up [from sharon]
14:25:18 <JF> ACTION: JF to add Editor's note to Module 1 that points to Research Questions wiki page
14:25:23 <trackbot> Created ACTION-87 - Add editor's note to module 1 that points to research questions wiki page [on John Foliot - due 2021-06-14].
14:26:02 <janina> sharon: Notes Addison responded on github issue
14:26:06 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: When?
14:26:15 <janina> sharon: 12 days ago as of now
14:26:30 <janina> sharon: A long response
14:27:11 <janina> sharon: Notes also response from Richard of I18N
14:27:22 <janina> sharon: i18n unclear as to what the resolution is
14:27:30 <janina> sharon: reads some of the github
14:29:00 <janina> [i18n concerned whether direction matters]
14:29:32 <janina> sharon: Notes Richard has additional questions
14:29:44 <janina> sharon: Richard suggests graphics in specs to show what users will see
14:30:33 <janina> sharon: Also reads Richard's concern about Bliss syntax across i18n contexts
14:32:03 <JF> Q+
14:32:17 <CharlesL> q+
14:33:09 <sharon> q?
14:33:13 <sharon> ack JF
14:33:22 <janina> jf: Believe Richard has drilled into a good question
14:33:31 <janina> jf: Believe we'll need eventually to rely on AI
14:34:22 <janina> jf: Maybe we don't have all the naswers because Bliss doesn't have them all
14:34:37 <sharon> q?
14:34:41 <sharon> ack CharlesL
14:34:43 <janina> jf: Bliss not always thea one to one translation
14:34:55 <janina> CharlesL: We always said we're not translating
14:34:57 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel found this on a Blisssymbol Canada blog, "he Hebrew language is written from right to left and, after much discussion and deliberation with the people in Canada and others from different parts of the world, it was decided to write the Blissymbols being used in Israel from right to left to correspond to the written language.""
14:35:13 <janina> CharlesL: If we have the symbols, we facilitate symbolic communication in lang X
14:35:43 <janina> CharlesL: Perhaps a note in our spec that we're not translating, just representing using symbols within a lang
14:35:49 <Lionel_Wolberger> q+
14:35:53 <janina> CharlesL: Also suggest we ask Bliss how to respond on this
14:35:59 <sharon> q?
14:36:00 <janina> +1 to asking Bliss
14:36:04 <JF> Q+ to clarify what we are using from Bliss
14:36:12 <sharon> ack Lionel_Wolberger
14:36:45 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: Have been looking, unsure whether Bliss has consensus around this
14:36:47 <sharon> q?
14:37:18 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: We're just specifying where there are symbols
14:37:21 <sharon> ack JF
14:37:21 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to clarify what we are using from Bliss
14:37:29 <janina> jf: We're transformation, not translation
14:37:44 <janina> Or maybe "transliteration?"
14:38:00 <Matthew_Atkinson> q+
14:38:04 <janina> jf: Notes each symbol expresses a concept plus identifier as our taxonomy
14:38:19 <sharon> ack Matthew_Atkinson
14:38:46 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: Wondering whether we can isolate ourselves -- what's essential
14:39:00 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: Do we need to say re directionality?
14:39:10 <sharon> q?
14:39:21 <Lionel_Wolberger> q+
14:39:40 <CharlesL> q+
14:40:05 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: We can acknowledge that there are gaps (as pointed out by i18n), but often,
14:40:10 <sharon> q?
14:40:23 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... in accessibility, there are gaps, but putting something (flawed) out there is better than nothing.
14:40:39 <sharon> q?
14:40:43 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... Suggesting having a conversation with them about that
14:40:44 <JF> +1 to Janina - don't let perfect be the enemy of good
14:40:44 <sharon> ack Lionel_Wolberger
14:41:27 <sharon> q?
14:41:27 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: Asking jf would isolation also isolate us from the space/comma issue we recently looked at?
14:41:30 <janina> jf: Don't think so
14:41:52 <janina> jf: Believe we ended up with space
14:42:22 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: So is related?
14:42:44 <janina> jf: Reason for numeric identifier
14:42:52 <janina> jf: Best choice and unencumbered
14:43:01 <janina> s/unen/IPR unen/
14:44:43 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: we're defining a personalization metatag, now we're getting buried by details; can we say there is a coherent personalization message there?
14:44:53 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: Not sure, but wondering
14:44:55 <sharon> ack CharlesL
14:45:11 <janina> CharlesL: Let's say we had "cup of tea" and also "a b c" symbols ...
14:45:52 <janina> CharlesL: If I'm now in Country X which is right to left, the page should display "c b a" right? I would know what.
14:45:55 <JF> Q+
14:46:02 <janina> CharlesL: So, I'm not sure it's our issue
14:47:06 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: There is a precedence order here: the language of the page has precedence over the language of the personalization tags and values
14:47:11 <janina> janina: Suggests Charles has a solid idea--there's a precedence order here, and the web page needs to get the i18n right before personalization transformations are applied
14:47:36 <janina> jf: Symbols will follow native lang of doc. We don't do translation
14:47:40 <sharon> q?
14:48:19 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: It is highly dependent on the page that you pull up. You might be physically in China, but reading a Hebrew page-- the page's rules are followed
14:48:57 <Lionel_Wolberger> JF: We expect the peronalization attribute to respect the lang attribute of the host page
14:49:09 <janina> sharon: recalls similar conversation last  year
14:49:36 <janina> sharon: reads from Lisa's comments ...
14:49:37 <JF> Draft: our specification does not anticipate translation, but rather transformation. It is expected that the transformation tool (word to symbol) respects the language specified by the content author (using @lang)
14:50:52 <JF> Q+ to suggest we invite them to one of our calls to finally resolve this question
14:51:10 <janina> sharon: Also reads from Becky's comments ...
14:51:25 <Lionel_Wolberger> q+
14:51:32 <sharon> q?
14:51:57 <sharon> ack JF
14:51:57 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to suggest we invite them to one of our calls to finally resolve this question
14:51:59 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: We agree with i18n that this stuff MATTERS.
14:52:12 <CharlesL> +1 to inviting i18N here
14:52:25 <janina> jf: Agrees that invite to call may help
14:52:37 <sharon> q?
14:53:22 <sharon> ack Lionel_Wolberger
14:53:24 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: +1 on this approach
14:53:44 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: Still a bit stuck on the alt text -- what happens?
14:53:57 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: whoever translates the page needs to deal with i18n
14:54:20 <JF> +1
14:55:16 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel: an example, given an HTML page with a lang value of "english". A process translates the page into "Hebrew." This proces would translate any 'alt' tags as well
14:55:50 <JF> Issue: https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/144
14:55:52 <sharon> https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/144
14:55:56 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-1 - Https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/144.  Please complete additional details at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/task-forces/personalization/track/issues/1/edit>.
14:56:04 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... we see our situation as similar to this example. We are in violent agreement that the 'lang' of the page takes precedence and dictates how to interpret or render the linguistic elements on the page
14:56:14 <janina> zakim, next item
14:56:14 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Diff of Content Module 1 - Working draft vs. Editors draft - https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-personalization-tf/2021Jun/att-0001/00-part (Sharon) --
14:56:17 <Zakim> ... taken up [from sharon]
14:56:18 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... Peronalization tags should be handled similarly.
14:56:36 <janina> sharon: Recalls being tasks to diff last working draft vs editor's draft
14:56:53 <janina> sharon: looks like none of our chages made it into the WD
14:56:55 <janina> q+
14:57:15 <JF> +1, that appears correct Sharon
14:57:40 <JF> We've never updated the Working Draft
14:58:22 <sharon> q?
14:58:39 <janina> ack ja
14:58:42 <sharon> ack janina
14:58:45 <janina> jf: Offers to help!
14:58:59 <janina> sharon: Think I've noted, so will go and do the ones I found
14:59:12 <janina> jf: Have also caught a few, but never done a diff
14:59:55 <janina> jf: Believe both the module and the explainer have redline edits that need updating
15:00:33 <JF> ACTION: JF to do redline review of Modules 2 & 3
15:00:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-88 - Do redline review of modules 2 & 3 [on John Foliot - due 2021-06-14].
15:00:41 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
15:00:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/07-personalization-minutes.html janina
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15:01:34 <Roy> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:01:40 <Roy> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:01:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/07-personalization-minutes.html Roy
15:03:50 <CharlesL> CharlesL has left #personalization
15:06:10 <Lionel_Wolberger> bye
15:06:36 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel to Sharon -- back on the Zoom for planning?
15:07:02 <Roy> https://www.w3.org/2017/08/telecon-info_personalization-plan
15:07:09 <Roy> Lionel_Wolberger,
15:07:09 <Lionel_Wolberger> Thanks, Roy
15:23:19 <janina> janina has left #personalization
15:27:26 <Roy> RRSAgent, make log public
15:27:33 <Roy> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:27:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/07-personalization-minutes.html Roy
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