IRC log of personalization on 2021-06-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/06/07-personalization-irc

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RRSAgent, make logs public

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13:34:03 [trackbot]

Meeting: Personalization Task Force Teleconference

13:34:03 [trackbot]

Date: 07 June 2021

13:34:13 [sharon]

agenda?

13:34:33 [sharon]

agenda+ i18n issue #144 (Review response) - https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/144

13:35:17 [sharon]

agenda+ Diff of Content Module 1 - Working draft vs. Editors draft - https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-personalization-tf/2021Jun/att-0001/00-part (Sharon)

13:35:35 [sharon]

agenda+ Update on the draft document for action-destination-purpose that will be referenced with an editors note (Matthew and John)

13:35:49 [sharon]

agenda+ Content module 1 issues https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3A%221%29+content+module%22

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14:00:44 [JF]

agenda?

14:01:17 [Lionel_Wolberger]

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14:01:23 [JF]

Present+

14:01:51 [janina]

present+

14:01:54 [janina]

scribe: janina

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14:02:12 [Roy]

present+

14:02:21 [janina]

sharon: Noting that effective immediately Lionel will be Co-Facilitator with Sharon. Lisa has stepped down.

14:02:34 [janina]

zakim, take up item 3

14:02:34 [Zakim]

agendum 3 -- Update on the draft document for action-destination-purpose that will be referenced with an editors note (Matthew and John) -- taken up [from sharon]

14:02:40 [CharlesL]

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14:02:50 [CharlesL]

present+

14:03:13 [janina]

jf: Recalls issue is whether or not to merge attributes

14:03:42 [janina]

jf: We worked on use cases, possible duplication?

14:03:44 [janina]

q+

14:04:04 [janina]

jf: States goal as getting as many of our attributes as possible into HTML without a prefix

14:04:15 [janina]

ack ja

14:05:06 [janina]

janina: Recalls that group decision had been to go with prefixed only

14:05:14 [janina]

jf: Disappointed, but issue is the same

14:05:19 [janina]

janina: Agree re the issue

14:05:41 [janina]

jf: Matthew and I landed on that "these are research questions."

14:06:05 [janina]

jf: Goal is to get feedback both from authoring and implementation

14:06:15 [Matthew_Atkinson]

q+

14:06:16 [janina]

jf: Can we ask RQTF

14:07:01 [Lionel_Wolberger]

Lionel scribing: 2 considerations in going to RQTF

14:07:14 [Lionel_Wolberger]

... They tend not to look at disambiguation.

14:07:30 [Lionel_Wolberger]

... They tend to support a literature-review focus, what has worked and what has not worked in the literature

14:07:49 [Lionel_Wolberger]

... Also RQTF is loaded recently.

14:08:07 [JF]

Q?

14:08:07 [sharon]

q?

14:08:36 [Lionel_Wolberger]

... Activity in XAUR, Captcha, Sync tolerances.... Loaded.

14:08:44 [sharon]

ack Matthew_Atkinson

14:08:48 [Lionel_Wolberger]

q+

14:09:05 [janina]

matthew: Notes he's sent email pointing to wiki

14:09:12 [JF]

Document in G-Docs: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aVnRu0tZE-hvQ4tTj1Genlno3b6H31KdAby7rrUmBRw/edit?skip_itp2_check=true&pli=1#heading=h.2ydr91se730e

14:09:20 [janina]

matthew: includes proposed Ed Note to request feedback

14:09:28 [janina]

matthew: Notes that would work for RQTF

14:09:30 [JF]

All code examples in a single large table: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tdgXpteQMI5Uz9z271BhSV7W9WEit89iQzac28tPPKM/edit?skip_itp2_check=true&pli=1#gid=0

14:09:44 [janina]

matthew: Not all the right formatting yet

14:09:44 [JF]

ACTION: JF to add content to our wiki

14:09:45 [Lionel_Wolberger]

Tells Matthew: I do not have access to the Google Doc

14:09:50 [janina]

q+

14:09:54 [trackbot]

Error creating an ACTION: could not connect to Tracker. Please mail <sysreq@w3.org> with details about what happened.

14:10:07 [sharon]

q?

14:10:19 [sharon]

ack Lionel_Wolberger

14:10:35 [JF]

Q+

14:10:46 [janina]

lionel: Not clear about going to rQTF, though I like the direction of going for feedback

14:11:04 [janina]

Lionel_Wolberger: Notes conference submission to point to our work

14:11:49 [sharon]

ack janina

14:12:13 [Lionel_Wolberger]

Sharing my paper proposal is for this conference, https://inclusivedesign24.org/2021/

14:12:56 [sharon]

q?

14:13:14 [Matthew_Atkinson]

q+

14:14:53 [sharon]

ack JF

14:14:59 [janina]

jf: Agrees with Lionel on broadest agreement

14:15:26 [janina]

jf: Recalls "white paper" is probably not right title, so it's how we ended up on "Research Questions."

14:15:45 [janina]

jf: OK if RQTF can't, but it seemed colleagual to ask

14:16:14 [janina]

jf: Wonders whether we want this resolved before CR.

14:16:35 [sharon]

q?

14:16:45 [janina]

jf: Goal is to get a decision before we're too far in the process to easily adapt to a change

14:17:14 [janina]

jf: Notes that he and Matthew looked at this with code examples

14:17:17 [janina]

q+

14:17:34 [sharon]

ack Matthew_Atkinson

14:17:48 [Matthew_Atkinson]

I emailed the doc (which features the big table at the end) to the list: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-personalization-tf/2021Jun/0004.html

14:18:01 [janina]

Matthew_Atkinson: Requests post to wiki

14:18:04 [janina]

jf: Can do

14:18:54 [sharon]

q?

14:19:38 [sharon]

ack janina

14:20:23 [Lionel_Wolberger]

scribe: Lionel

14:20:32 [sharon]

q?

14:20:43 [JF]

scribe: Lionel_Wolberger

14:20:44 [Lionel_Wolberger]

janina: The early implementations were clearly drafts

14:21:02 [Lionel_Wolberger]

... will a second CR be too late?

14:21:53 [Lionel_Wolberger]

... this CR will be enough for WHAT-WG to give us a prefix

14:22:42 [Lionel_Wolberger]

JF: Matt's code examples surface the issue very clearly

14:22:48 [janina]

jf: Notes Matthew's code all about making life easier for authoring

14:22:55 [sharon]

q?

14:23:25 [janina]

sharon: Believes we have agreed to get the paper into the wiki, and we'll look at Ed Note wording and close on it next week?

14:23:42 [JF]

Q+

14:23:45 [janina]

sharon: So, we probably all need a little time to get this done

14:24:01 [janina]

jf: Will post today

14:24:17 [janina]

jf: Offers to add candidate Ed Note in github repo as well

14:24:19 [janina]

sharon: Sure

14:24:36 [janina]

zakim, next item

14:24:36 [Zakim]

I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, janina

14:24:40 [janina]

q?

14:24:47 [JF]

ACTION: add Editor's note to Module 1 that points to Research Questions wiki page

14:24:47 [trackbot]

Error finding 'add'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/task-forces/personalization/track/users>.

14:24:48 [janina]

zakim, next item

14:24:48 [Zakim]

I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, janina

14:24:52 [janina]

ack jf

14:24:55 [janina]

zakim, next item

14:24:55 [Zakim]

agendum 1 -- i18n issue #144 (Review response) - https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/144 -- taken up [from sharon]

14:25:18 [JF]

ACTION: JF to add Editor's note to Module 1 that points to Research Questions wiki page

14:25:23 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-87 - Add editor's note to module 1 that points to research questions wiki page [on John Foliot - due 2021-06-14].

14:26:02 [janina]

sharon: Notes Addison responded on github issue

14:26:06 [janina]

Lionel_Wolberger: When?

14:26:15 [janina]

sharon: 12 days ago as of now

14:26:30 [janina]

sharon: A long response

14:27:11 [janina]

sharon: Notes also response from Richard of I18N

14:27:22 [janina]

sharon: i18n unclear as to what the resolution is

14:27:30 [janina]

sharon: reads some of the github

14:29:00 [janina]

[i18n concerned whether direction matters]

14:29:32 [janina]

sharon: Notes Richard has additional questions

14:29:44 [janina]

sharon: Richard suggests graphics in specs to show what users will see

14:30:33 [janina]

sharon: Also reads Richard's concern about Bliss syntax across i18n contexts

14:32:03 [JF]

Q+

14:32:17 [CharlesL]

q+

14:33:09 [sharon]

q?

14:33:13 [sharon]

ack JF

14:33:22 [janina]

jf: Believe Richard has drilled into a good question

14:33:31 [janina]

jf: Believe we'll need eventually to rely on AI

14:34:22 [janina]

jf: Maybe we don't have all the naswers because Bliss doesn't have them all

14:34:37 [sharon]

q?

14:34:41 [sharon]

ack CharlesL

14:34:43 [janina]

jf: Bliss not always thea one to one translation

14:34:55 [janina]

CharlesL: We always said we're not translating

14:34:57 [Lionel_Wolberger]

Lionel found this on a Blisssymbol Canada blog, "he Hebrew language is written from right to left and, after much discussion and deliberation with the people in Canada and others from different parts of the world, it was decided to write the Blissymbols being used in Israel from right to left to correspond to the written language.""

14:35:13 [janina]

CharlesL: If we have the symbols, we facilitate symbolic communication in lang X

14:35:43 [janina]

CharlesL: Perhaps a note in our spec that we're not translating, just representing using symbols within a lang

14:35:49 [Lionel_Wolberger]

q+

14:35:53 [janina]

CharlesL: Also suggest we ask Bliss how to respond on this

14:35:59 [sharon]

q?

14:36:00 [janina]

+1 to asking Bliss

14:36:04 [JF]

Q+ to clarify what we are using from Bliss

14:36:12 [sharon]

ack Lionel_Wolberger

14:36:45 [janina]

Lionel_Wolberger: Have been looking, unsure whether Bliss has consensus around this

14:36:47 [sharon]

q?

14:37:18 [janina]

Lionel_Wolberger: We're just specifying where there are symbols

14:37:21 [sharon]

ack JF

14:37:21 [Zakim]

JF, you wanted to clarify what we are using from Bliss

14:37:29 [janina]

jf: We're transformation, not translation

14:37:44 [janina]

Or maybe "transliteration?"

14:38:00 [Matthew_Atkinson]

q+

14:38:04 [janina]

jf: Notes each symbol expresses a concept plus identifier as our taxonomy

14:38:19 [sharon]

ack Matthew_Atkinson

14:38:46 [janina]

Matthew_Atkinson: Wondering whether we can isolate ourselves -- what's essential

14:39:00 [janina]

Matthew_Atkinson: Do we need to say re directionality?

14:39:10 [sharon]

q?

14:39:21 [Lionel_Wolberger]

q+

14:39:40 [CharlesL]

q+

14:40:05 [Lionel_Wolberger]

janina: We can acknowledge that there are gaps (as pointed out by i18n), but often,

14:40:10 [sharon]

q?

14:40:23 [Lionel_Wolberger]

... in accessibility, there are gaps, but putting something (flawed) out there is better than nothing.

14:40:39 [sharon]

q?

14:40:43 [Lionel_Wolberger]

... Suggesting having a conversation with them about that

14:40:44 [JF]

+1 to Janina - don't let perfect be the enemy of good

14:40:44 [sharon]

ack Lionel_Wolberger

14:41:27 [sharon]

q?

14:41:27 [janina]

Lionel_Wolberger: Asking jf would isolation also isolate us from the space/comma issue we recently looked at?

14:41:30 [janina]

jf: Don't think so

14:41:52 [janina]

jf: Believe we ended up with space

14:42:22 [janina]

Lionel_Wolberger: So is related?

14:42:44 [janina]

jf: Reason for numeric identifier

14:42:52 [janina]

jf: Best choice and unencumbered

14:43:01 [janina]

s/unen/IPR unen/

14:44:43 [janina]

Lionel_Wolberger: we're defining a personalization metatag, now we're getting buried by details; can we say there is a coherent personalization message there?

14:44:53 [janina]

Lionel_Wolberger: Not sure, but wondering

14:44:55 [sharon]

ack CharlesL

14:45:11 [janina]

CharlesL: Let's say we had "cup of tea" and also "a b c" symbols ...

14:45:52 [janina]

CharlesL: If I'm now in Country X which is right to left, the page should display "c b a" right? I would know what.

14:45:55 [JF]

Q+

14:46:02 [janina]

CharlesL: So, I'm not sure it's our issue

14:47:06 [Lionel_Wolberger]

janina: There is a precedence order here: the language of the page has precedence over the language of the personalization tags and values

14:47:11 [janina]

janina: Suggests Charles has a solid idea--there's a precedence order here, and the web page needs to get the i18n right before personalization transformations are applied

14:47:36 [janina]

jf: Symbols will follow native lang of doc. We don't do translation

14:47:40 [sharon]

q?

14:48:19 [Lionel_Wolberger]

janina: It is highly dependent on the page that you pull up. You might be physically in China, but reading a Hebrew page-- the page's rules are followed

14:48:57 [Lionel_Wolberger]

JF: We expect the peronalization attribute to respect the lang attribute of the host page

14:49:09 [janina]

sharon: recalls similar conversation last year

14:49:36 [janina]

sharon: reads from Lisa's comments ...

14:49:37 [JF]

Draft: our specification does not anticipate translation, but rather transformation. It is expected that the transformation tool (word to symbol) respects the language specified by the content author (using @lang)

14:50:52 [JF]

Q+ to suggest we invite them to one of our calls to finally resolve this question

14:51:10 [janina]

sharon: Also reads from Becky's comments ...

14:51:25 [Lionel_Wolberger]

q+

14:51:32 [sharon]

q?

14:51:57 [sharon]

ack JF

14:51:57 [Zakim]

JF, you wanted to suggest we invite them to one of our calls to finally resolve this question

14:51:59 [Lionel_Wolberger]

janina: We agree with i18n that this stuff MATTERS.

14:52:12 [CharlesL]

+1 to inviting i18N here

14:52:25 [janina]

jf: Agrees that invite to call may help

14:52:37 [sharon]

q?

14:53:22 [sharon]

ack Lionel_Wolberger

14:53:24 [janina]

Lionel_Wolberger: +1 on this approach

14:53:44 [janina]

Lionel_Wolberger: Still a bit stuck on the alt text -- what happens?

14:53:57 [janina]

Lionel_Wolberger: whoever translates the page needs to deal with i18n

14:54:20 [JF]

+1

14:55:16 [Lionel_Wolberger]

Lionel: an example, given an HTML page with a lang value of "english". A process translates the page into "Hebrew." This proces would translate any 'alt' tags as well

14:55:50 [JF]

Issue: https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/144

14:55:52 [sharon]

https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/144

14:55:56 [trackbot]

Created ISSUE-1 - Https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/144. Please complete additional details at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/task-forces/personalization/track/issues/1/edit>.

14:56:04 [Lionel_Wolberger]

... we see our situation as similar to this example. We are in violent agreement that the 'lang' of the page takes precedence and dictates how to interpret or render the linguistic elements on the page

14:56:14 [janina]

zakim, next item

14:56:14 [Zakim]

agendum 2 -- Diff of Content Module 1 - Working draft vs. Editors draft - https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-personalization-tf/2021Jun/att-0001/00-part (Sharon) --

14:56:17 [Zakim]

... taken up [from sharon]

14:56:18 [Lionel_Wolberger]

... Peronalization tags should be handled similarly.

14:56:36 [janina]

sharon: Recalls being tasks to diff last working draft vs editor's draft

14:56:53 [janina]

sharon: looks like none of our chages made it into the WD

14:56:55 [janina]

q+

14:57:15 [JF]

+1, that appears correct Sharon

14:57:40 [JF]

We've never updated the Working Draft

14:58:22 [sharon]

q?

14:58:39 [janina]

ack ja

14:58:42 [sharon]

ack janina

14:58:45 [janina]

jf: Offers to help!

14:58:59 [janina]

sharon: Think I've noted, so will go and do the ones I found

14:59:12 [janina]

jf: Have also caught a few, but never done a diff

14:59:55 [janina]

jf: Believe both the module and the explainer have redline edits that need updating

15:00:33 [JF]

ACTION: JF to do redline review of Modules 2 & 3

15:00:39 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-88 - Do redline review of modules 2 & 3 [on John Foliot - due 2021-06-14].

15:00:41 [janina]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:00:41 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/07-personalization-minutes.html janina

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15:01:34 [Roy]

RRSAgent, make logs public

15:01:40 [Roy]

RRSAgent, make minutes

15:01:40 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/07-personalization-minutes.html Roy

15:03:50 [CharlesL]

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15:06:10 [Lionel_Wolberger]

bye

15:06:36 [Lionel_Wolberger]

Lionel to Sharon -- back on the Zoom for planning?

15:07:02 [Roy]

https://www.w3.org/2017/08/telecon-info_personalization-plan

15:07:09 [Roy]

Lionel_Wolberger,

15:07:09 [Lionel_Wolberger]

Thanks, Roy

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15:27:26 [Roy]

RRSAgent, make log public

15:27:33 [Roy]

RRSAgent, make minutes

15:27:33 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/07-personalization-minutes.html Roy

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