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13:34:33 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/06/03-i18n-irc
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13:34:48 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:34:51 <trackbot> Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
13:34:51 <trackbot> Date: 03 June 2021
13:34:56 <agendabot> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2021Jun/0000.html
13:34:56 <agendabot> clear agenda
13:34:56 <agendabot> agenda+ Agenda Review
13:34:56 <agendabot> agenda+ Action Items
13:34:56 <agendabot> agenda+ Info Share
13:34:58 <agendabot> agenda+ RADAR Review
13:35:01 <agendabot> agenda+ AOB?
13:35:58 <addison> agenda+ manifest and localization
13:36:07 <addison> Chair: Addison Phillips
13:36:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/03-i18n-minutes.html addison
13:36:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/03-i18n-minutes.html addison
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13:59:20 <fsasaki> scribe: fsasaki
13:59:28 <addison> present+ Addison, Richard, Atsushi, Fuqiao
13:59:41 <fsasaki> present+
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14:02:53 <fsasaki> present+ JcK
14:03:08 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 1
14:03:08 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:03:15 <addison> agenda?
14:03:41 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 2
14:03:41 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:04:05 <addison> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
14:05:03 <fsasaki> addison: r12a, should I do your bidi related action as part of my next editing round of string meta?
14:06:39 <addison> action-975?
14:06:39 <trackbot> action-975 -- Addison Phillips to Update wiki on i18n "considerations" sections and reply to sec/ping thanking them -- due 2020-11-19 -- OPEN
14:06:39 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/975
14:06:50 <addison> https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/OnInternationalizationConsiderations
14:06:55 <fsasaki> addison: did work on this: updated wiki ...
14:07:06 <fsasaki> ... please have a look, comments are welcome
14:07:12 <addison> close action-975
14:07:12 <trackbot> Closed action-975.
14:07:14 <fsasaki> ... will close action update
14:07:27 <fsasaki> s/update//
14:07:32 <fsasaki> action-1017?
14:07:32 <trackbot> action-1017 -- Addison Phillips to Send wpwg list of specs that implement lang/dir -- due 2021-04-22 -- OPEN
14:07:32 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1017
14:07:37 <fsasaki> pending
14:07:40 <addison> action-1024?
14:07:40 <trackbot> action-1024 -- Addison Phillips to Review floating times article for final publication -- due 2021-05-13 -- OPEN
14:07:40 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1024
14:07:56 <fsasaki> addison: done, made some edits
14:07:58 <fsasaki> ... merged back in
14:08:23 <addison> https://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/questions/qa-floating-times.en
14:08:39 <fsasaki> addison: does the group want to review this?
14:08:55 <addison> close action-1024
14:08:55 <trackbot> Closed action-1024.
14:09:26 <fsasaki> addison: we did a wide review in the past
14:09:48 <fsasaki> ... I made only small edits
14:10:07 <fsasaki> (no disagreement for publishing the doc, but table the doc for now)
14:10:08 <addison> action-1030?
14:10:08 <trackbot> action-1030 -- Atsushi Shimono to Ensure that a summary of the ruby issue in english is forwarded to the working group -- due 2021-06-03 -- OPEN
14:10:08 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1030
14:10:17 <fsasaki> atsushi: sent out on Monday
14:10:17 <addison> close action-1030
14:10:17 <trackbot> Closed action-1030.
14:10:31 <addison> action-1031?
14:10:31 <trackbot> action-1031 -- Addison Phillips to Document the state of payment-request -- due 2021-06-03 -- OPEN
14:10:31 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1031
14:10:41 <fsasaki> addison: pending, will work on it today
14:11:23 <addison> present+ Bert
14:11:24 <fsasaki> present+ bert
14:11:43 <fsasaki> s/present+ bert//
14:11:55 <addison> agenda?
14:12:05 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 3
14:12:05 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:12:50 <fsasaki> xfq: W3C process will have a new version this year
14:13:02 <fsasaki> ... a new "note" track will be added
14:13:21 <xfq> https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Process/Drafts/#note-track
14:13:33 <fsasaki> ... is separate from REC track, to avoid ambiguity
14:13:49 <fsasaki> .. above link shows the draft of the process
14:13:49 <atsushi> all changes -> https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Process/Drafts/#changes-2020
14:14:02 <fsasaki> addison: we are rechartering, so everything will be under process 2021?
14:14:18 <fsasaki> xfq: all specs will switch to new process once it is published
14:14:25 <fsasaki> ... patent policy is depending on the charter
14:14:31 <fsasaki> addison: those are often linked
14:14:55 <fsasaki> ... there is  probably not much impact on us
14:15:10 <fsasaki> ... a new version of respec will incooprate the stuff, I guess
14:15:22 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 4
14:15:22 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:15:22 <fsasaki> xfq: yes, should be transparent to all groups
14:15:29 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1
14:15:44 <fsasaki> addison: some new items
14:15:55 <fsasaki> (addison going through the list)
14:16:22 <fsasaki> atsushi: happy to make a review
14:17:01 <fsasaki> ... resource timing and user timing
14:17:30 <fsasaki> addison: we will discuss this in 1 or 2 weeks
14:17:46 <fsasaki> bert: interested to review dx profile
14:18:04 <fsasaki> "dx profile negotiation" (data set negotation)
14:19:02 <fsasaki> "Content Negotiation by Profile (dx-prof-conneg)"
14:19:30 <fsasaki> bert: will have a look
14:20:01 <addison> agenda?
14:20:19 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 6
14:20:19 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- manifest and localization -- taken up [from addison]
14:20:31 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/676
14:20:49 <addison> https://www.w3.org/2021/05/27-miniapp-minutes.html#t02
14:21:23 <xfq> Open tracker issues for WAM: https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3As%3Aappmanifest
14:21:31 <fsasaki> addison: a search for what the best patterns should be, to create a manifest for a web based app
14:21:43 <fsasaki> ... two common models are debated:
14:21:58 <fsasaki> ... a single file, contains different localization
14:22:08 <fsasaki> ... or: multiple manifest files, one per localization
14:22:23 <fsasaki> ... which do we recommend?
14:22:32 <fsasaki> ... what should be best practices for a space like this?
14:22:39 <fsasaki> q+
14:23:13 <fsasaki> xfq: a third model would be:
14:23:26 <fsasaki> ... a file that contains not a whole manifest file, but some localized strings
14:23:38 <fsasaki> addison: a resource file attached to the manifest
14:23:40 <fsasaki> xfq: correct
14:23:52 <fsasaki> ... each has pros and cons
14:24:11 <fsasaki> ... for web apps, they need to fetch multiple files, there is a cost for fetching
14:24:29 <fsasaki> ... there may be potential dublications
14:24:38 <fsasaki> ... with a single file, it is difficult to modify
14:24:45 <atsushi> q+ from past l10n team member (of mozilla) point of view, separated is easier for distributed work,, which could be compiled into one with post-processor
14:24:46 <addison> s/dublications/duplications/
14:24:52 <fsasaki> ... if there are a lot of locales, the file is large, not easy to manage
14:24:53 <addison> zakim, fsasaki
14:24:53 <Zakim> I don't understand 'fsasaki', addison
14:25:01 <fsasaki> q-
14:25:03 <addison> ack fasasaki
14:25:08 <addison> ack atsushi
14:25:20 <JcK> +1
14:25:34 <fsasaki> atsushi: separation is easier for distributed work
14:25:46 <fsasaki> ... quite easier to have separated files
14:26:01 <fsasaki> q+ to agree with atsuhi :)
14:26:15 <fsasaki> ... of course post processing could be used to create one file
14:26:29 <fsasaki> ... some apps may set english as default language
14:26:55 <fsasaki> ... or if some language is lacking, a value could be copied by the processor from default language
14:26:55 <addison> q+
14:27:02 <addison> ack fasaki
14:27:10 <addison> ack fsasaki
14:27:10 <Zakim> fsasaki, you wanted to agree with atsuhi :)
14:27:45 <addison> felix: want to agree. in localization workflows, if you have monolingual files it's easier
14:27:52 <addison> ack addison
14:28:08 <fsasaki> addison: agree ... there are several topics in here ...
14:28:17 <fsasaki> ... one has to do how language negotiation can occur ...
14:28:27 <fsasaki> e.g., how do you select the localized resource ...
14:28:38 <fsasaki> ... that is there the default value comes into play
14:28:46 <fsasaki> ... you also want to reduce the number of fetches ...
14:29:03 <fsasaki> ... if you have a localized resource file, you want to know what to get, based e.g. on language negotiation
14:29:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/03-i18n-minutes.html xfq
14:29:27 <fsasaki> ... final consideration is the size
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14:29:41 <fsasaki> ... if you do a lot of languages, you can have a huge manifest file ...
14:30:02 <fsasaki> ... having dozens of locals would lead to a big file
14:30:14 <addison> s/locals/locales/
14:30:32 <fsasaki> jck: general idea of an index file
14:30:52 <fsasaki> ... and a default, and a bunch of URLs, doesn't that solve the problem?
14:31:00 <fsasaki> addison: would solve the problem
14:31:10 <fsasaki> ... lang neg. is then on the client, not on the server
14:31:19 <fsasaki> ... there is a couple of different models
14:31:31 <fsasaki> ... some manifests go into a zip file which forms an app
14:31:44 <fsasaki> ... if you bundle all in zip file you can have everything inside
14:32:08 <fsasaki> ... you do not fetch things, you just go inside the directory and get what you want
14:32:23 <fsasaki> ... there was a directory structure with all kinds of stuff
14:32:37 <fsasaki> .. if you have a manifest, you want to fetch as less resources as possible
14:32:52 <fsasaki> ... that would then be a multilingual file, or a file with links, a list with what you need
14:33:01 <fsasaki> jck: the latter has two fetches
14:33:10 <fsasaki> addison: which is better than 50+
14:33:34 <fsasaki> jck: and if you have thousands of resources, zip still needs a lot of time to retrieve
14:33:48 <fsasaki> atsushi: android jdk takes such an approach
14:34:04 <fsasaki> ... they use the "separate" model for storing localized string
14:34:21 <fsasaki> addison: yes, and then everything comes in the zip file
14:34:37 <fsasaki> ... you download everything and read it
14:34:59 <fsasaki> ... which is also convinient for localization processes, as felix mentioned
14:35:55 <fsasaki> s/convinient/convenient/
14:36:27 <fsasaki> addison: how to move forward - should we contribute to the thread?
14:36:42 <fsasaki> "best practices for manifest files"
14:37:56 <fsasaki> xfq: the problem is different from string metadata problem
14:38:04 <fsasaki> addison: it is related to that problem
14:38:15 <fsasaki> ... since you will need string metadata in such situations
14:38:39 <fsasaki> xfq: correct, and in such a file you can still have strings with different languages and base direction
14:38:41 <fsasaki> xfq: correct
14:39:03 <fsasaki> r12a: people in that thread were starting to talk about many different topics
14:39:25 <fsasaki> ... some examples seem to assume that you always know the language of the document and the direction
14:39:42 <fsasaki> ... so this needs to be distinct from string metadata, and then how things work together
14:39:57 <fsasaki> s/how/show how/
14:40:35 <addison> action: addison: create skeleton of "best practices for manifests"
14:40:43 <trackbot> Error creating an ACTION: could not connect to Tracker.  Please mail <sysreq@w3.org> with details about what happened.
14:41:09 <fsasaki> addison: once the skeleton is done, people can look at it for further work on the doc
14:41:21 <fsasaki> ... anything else we want to do on the discussion thread?
14:41:30 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 2
14:41:30 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:41:45 <fsasaki> action-1032?
14:41:45 <trackbot> action-1032 -- Richard Ishida to Propose text for html 4814 (datalist find/string search) -- due 2021-06-03 -- OPEN
14:41:45 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1032
14:43:31 <fsasaki> addison: how about the action on bidi keywords?
14:43:48 <fsasaki> r12a: the glosarry is the place this should go to
14:43:48 <r12a> https://w3c.github.io/i18n-glossary/#dfn-rtl
14:44:06 <fsasaki> ... we have something in the glossar, not sure if that is what you have in mind
14:44:07 <r12a> https://w3c.github.io/i18n-glossary/#dfn-ltr
14:44:27 <fsasaki> addison: would expect this together with some explanatory text
14:44:43 <fsasaki> ... a definition with usage
14:45:08 <fsasaki> q+
14:45:27 <fsasaki> r12a: could go into an article or document
14:45:37 <fsasaki> q-
14:45:59 <fsasaki> r12a: please do the edits you had in mind
14:46:05 <fsasaki> addison: ok, will do
14:46:06 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 3
14:46:06 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:46:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/03-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:46:28 <r12a> https://w3c.github.io/i18n-glossary/
14:47:02 <fsasaki> r12a: added more stuff to glossary, please have a look
14:47:25 <r12a> https://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/pages/documenting_gaps
14:47:25 <fsasaki> .. looked at char mod, character essentials etc., this is growing, keep an eye on it
14:47:56 <fsasaki> r12a: this is also a reply to one of atsushi's github pull requests
14:48:05 <fsasaki> ... mentions gap analysis pipeline
14:48:17 <fsasaki> ... tells you how to create a gap analysis document, via github
14:48:27 <fsasaki> ... and describes labels to use
14:48:36 <fsasaki> ... which is relevant for the pipepline
14:49:16 <addison> (notes that LDML is UTR35 in bibxml I believe)
14:49:27 <fsasaki> s/pipepline/pipeline/
14:49:47 <fsasaki> r12a: if you do gap analysis, please have a look at this
14:50:16 <fsasaki> ... also, we had a discussion about 2021 process , cf. the note track (mentioned by atsushi)
14:50:24 <fsasaki> ... we can also have "super notes"
14:50:36 <fsasaki> ... means: you have wide review and s.t. else
14:50:44 <fsasaki> ... and show that people reviewed it
14:50:55 <fsasaki> ... it then it gets the "w3c endorsed note" status
14:51:05 <fsasaki> ... relevant for various docs, e.g. "string meta"
14:51:19 <fsasaki> ... can be applied to existing docs, but needs evidence that there has been a review
14:51:31 <fsasaki> addison: so sort of like a REC, but without conformance etc.
14:51:39 <fsasaki> ... a bit like BCP in IETF
14:51:50 <fsasaki> r12a: notes can be all kinds of shape in W3C
14:52:15 <xfq> https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Process/Drafts/#memo
14:52:21 <fsasaki> ... it might be, that for our docs would be relevant for this status
14:52:36 <fsasaki> ... name of the new document category is still under discussion
14:53:00 <fsasaki> addison: would such a document go through the same gates for publication?
14:53:02 <xfq> https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Process/Drafts/#revising-memo
14:53:05 <fsasaki> r12a: not sure yet
14:53:19 <JcK> "Statements" are a step down the slippery slope from IETF BCPs which can contain all of the categories you (Addison) mentioned plus nearly pure rants
14:53:28 <fsasaki> xfw: it seems that we can do editorial changes, but with non-editorial changes, there is some processes
14:53:58 <fsasaki> s/xfw/xfq/
14:54:12 <fsasaki> xfq: editorial means: fixing links, markup etc.
14:54:24 <fsasaki> atsushi: note is similar to working draft
14:54:29 <fsasaki> ... wide review, AC review apply
14:55:12 <fsasaki> addison: a bit like REC track, but not normative and without implementation requirements
14:55:54 <fsasaki> ... might help us with some challenges we had in the past
14:56:07 <fsasaki> ... e.g. with regards to references to char mod norm
14:56:40 <fsasaki> jck: useful for many cases
14:57:00 <fsasaki> addison: is there a requirement during rechartering to list work items with this target?
14:57:02 <fsasaki> r12a: no
14:57:07 <fsasaki> ... process is not in place yet
14:57:16 <fsasaki> addison: do you expect that to be in process 2021?
14:57:18 <fsasaki> r12a: yes
14:57:32 <JcK> But problematic is not applied carefully and used very conservatively
14:57:52 <addison> agenda
14:57:53 <fsasaki> no more infoshare
14:57:57 <addison> agenda?
14:58:06 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 5
14:58:06 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- AOB? -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:58:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/03-i18n-minutes.html fsasaki
14:58:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/03-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:58:56 <fsasaki> adjourned
14:58:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/03-i18n-minutes.html fsasaki
14:59:46 <addison> zakim, bye
14:59:46 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Addison, Richard, Atsushi, Fuqiao, fsasaki, JcK, Bert
14:59:46 <Zakim> Zakim has left #i18n
15:05:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/03-i18n-minutes.html addison
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