12:54:51 RRSAgent has joined #epub-fxl 12:54:51 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/05/25-epub-fxl-irc 12:54:53 RRSAgent, make logs Public 12:54:54 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), wendyreid 12:55:08 meeting: Fixed Layout Accessibility Telco May 25, 2021 12:55:14 date: 2021-05-21 12:55:16 date: 2021-05-25 12:55:22 chair: wendyreid 12:59:29 Ken_Jones has joined #epub-fxl 12:59:35 MattChan has joined #epub-fxl 13:00:26 gpellegrino has joined #epub-fxl 13:00:57 present+ 13:01:17 present+ 13:01:57 scribe+ 13:02:21 wendyreid: let's get into updates on what everyone is working on 13:03:15 https://paper.dropbox.com/doc/Visual-to-Textual-Explainer--BLb5F5hgHAn~4G_Vi9LYjG09Ag-K3nAwKn2vlVqRpFyZ9KHN 13:03:18 mgarrish has joined #epub-fxl 13:03:51 VijayaGowri has joined #epub-fxl 13:03:59 CharlesL has joined #epub-fxl 13:04:00 Ken_Jones: i've had a go at writing an explainer for visual-to-textual solution 13:04:06 present+ 13:04:24 ... would love to get feedback from this group, if you also think it's a good idea 13:04:39 Will has joined #epub-fxl 13:04:53 ... we can't get around fxl ebooks 13:05:18 ... so one solution is a way to present the FXL content, in a different way 13:06:00 ... a textual presentation would maintain reading order, semantic hierarchy etc. but disregard some of the visual stuff 13:06:59 q+ 13:07:06 ... regarding disregarding text styling, this was meant to be analogous to a plain "reading view", like you would get on a phone 13:07:24 rrsagent, make logs public 13:07:29 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:07:29 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/25-epub-fxl-minutes.html CharlesL 13:07:40 ... also disregarding synthetic spreads 13:07:56 ack gpellegrino 13:07:59 ... that pages would automatically reflow, except where pagebreaks are explicitly inserted 13:08:21 gpellegrino: would this be an RS feature, or would this be something embedded in the epub? 13:08:32 https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/@media 13:08:47 ... if embedded, maybe this could be done using some media attributes to present different CSS to different RS 13:09:12 ... but then it would be incumbent on authors to provide these 13:09:33 ... conversely, the idea about the "reading view" is more something that is controlled by the RS 13:09:45 Ken_Jones: open to your suggestions for how to define this 13:10:37 ... the whole idea was not to change anything in the epub standard, but to layer on this solution that would address FXL problems with zooming, fonts, etc. 13:11:15 ... turning back to the doc, discussing images, if this is purely for screen-readers, then surely no need for image itself if a description is available 13:11:28 q+ 13:11:40 ack CharlesL 13:12:00 ... few different options are presented, including disregarding all images, just presenting the description 13:12:31 CharlesL: for low vision users, it would be important to present the image itself in context with the description (so option 3) 13:13:15 Ken_Jones: perhaps for a textual view you'd want images presented in a different way? e.g. a cropped version? 13:13:22 CharlesL: that might work 13:14:26 Ken_Jones: wasn't sure how to treat MO content. Should I add a note that where this exists, it will also be converted to textual equivalent? 13:14:30 wendyreid: sure 13:14:55 s/MO content/media query content 13:15:34 Ken_Jones: add something to the accessibility metadata that the ebook has been prepared in this way 13:15:39 q+ 13:15:45 ... do we have any first impressions? 13:15:45 ack gpellegrino 13:16:11 gpellegrino: my concerns is that I think we should specific who is responsible for preparing this textual version of the ebook 13:16:29 s/concerns is/concern is 13:17:02 ... i was also looking at the app Pocket(?). They published the algorithm that they use to get the main content out of a webpage 13:17:15 ... this was quite complex due to the variety of content on a webpage 13:17:25 ... i was thinking this could also been an approach 13:17:50 Ken_Jones: i would say that this would have to be done by the content creators 13:18:58 ... we should say that reading order etc. is something that'd have to be done for FXL anyway, but that this textual view is another reason for FXLs to be prepared properly 13:19:27 wendyreid: yes, a lot of this falls on the content creator, but there will have to be an RS component 13:19:49 ... and we can't force any RS to do anything with this, but can provide guidance on what they can do if they encounter it 13:20:35 q+ 13:20:38 wendyreid: i'm going to share this with dauwhe and get his opinion as well 13:20:41 ack gpellegrino 13:21:31 gpellegrino: i was thinking that since this feature should not break anything, we can have an epub with polyfill with this feature, as a proof of concept 13:22:04 ivan has joined #epub-fxl 13:22:11 ... i also think this can be done with a single HTML5 file base, where some content is FXL and some is reflow, right? 13:23:12 wendyreid: i think you can do that already, using the package level metedata in the spine, or something as simple as not including the necessary CSS for the textual version where we don't want it to apply 13:23:43 Ken_Jones: and i'm open to this being redrafted 13:24:10 wendyreid: we want to try to use existing web tech as much as possible, e.g. media queries level 5 (e.g. prefers reduced motion, inverted colors etc.) 13:24:21 ... we might be able to take advantage of those 13:24:39 ... we have a lot we can work with without reinventing anything 13:24:52 ... and adding a metadata flag to package is something we could do, since we control that 13:25:10 ... otherwise, do we have any other updates? 13:25:28 q+ 13:25:28 Q+ 13:25:34 ack gpellegrino 13:25:34 ... i still have a couple sections of text that I will be adding to the best practices document 13:26:09 gpellegrino: a publisher sent me some sample files that we looked through together, they are now annonymizing the sections that we decided we might share 13:26:29 ack Ken_Jones 13:26:39 wendyreid: i talked to ralph about a fair use document we can distribute to publishers who are submitting samples 13:27:32 Ken_Jones: i worked with a photographer who is doing a book about nature photography, and he's said that we can use a section as long as we credit it 13:28:26 wendyreid: now that we will soon have examples, we have to decide how we want to use the examples in our document 13:29:11 ... should probably use some of them in the best practices document 13:29:22 q+ 13:29:26 ack CharlesL 13:29:37 ... maybe display the image, and then how we'd transform it to make it more accessible? 13:30:43 q+ 13:30:45 CharlesL: for Diagram Center, we had sample images broken down by category (e.g. complex spread, etc.) 13:30:46 ack gpellegrino 13:30:52 ... we could do something similar 13:31:33 gpellegrino: I wouldn't be too strict. Those examples should be a starting point. Authors can be creative in how they achieve the goal of accessibility 13:32:33 q+ 13:32:39 ack Ken_Jones 13:32:42 ... so maybe we explain what the problems are, and what technologies are available, with some examples 13:32:59 Ken_Jones: does it only have to be documentation, or can we have video walkthroughs? 13:33:23 wendyreid: i think we can use videos in our documentations 13:33:23 sure +1 for video walkthroughs etc. captions :) yup 13:33:36 ... we have to provide transcript if we do, but its possible 13:34:12 +1 to code examples ;) 13:34:18 ... we should probably have code examples beside epub pages, demo ebooks 13:34:39 ... what else do you think production people at publishing houses would find helpful? 13:35:19 Ken_Jones: biggest for me is an example document that people can dissect and replicate 13:36:05 wendyreid: so we still have some documentation to write, sample files to create 13:36:32 ... we also have the F2F this week, where we might do an update on our work here (incl. visual-to-textual) 13:36:49 ... if you would like to contribute and you're not sure how, let me know 13:37:05 q+ 13:37:09 ack CharlesL 13:38:09 CharlesL: regarding doing visual-to-textual with CSS, maybe you could have a button in the document itself, using JS, that toggles between the visual and textual views 13:38:39 wendyreid: for an experiment we can do that (since we don't have compatible RS), but in practice that wouldn't work 13:39:03 ... a lot of RSes have separate renderers for FXL and reflow content, that a JS button wouldn't be able to toggle between 13:40:18 q+ 13:40:22 ack gpellegrino 13:40:54 gpellegrino: maybe for this proof of concept we can do it in a webpage where it is more simple to toggle between FXL and reflow 13:41:12 q+ 13:41:13 great idea Gregorio 13:41:18 ack Ken_Jones 13:41:57 Ken_Jones: we could also have the same content, but in two epubs (one visual and one textual) 13:42:48 ... someone could then open the two books side-by-side 13:43:07 wendyreid: okay, reach out to me if you need a task assigned to you 13:43:16 ... otherwise, you know what you need to do 13:43:48 ... AOB? 13:44:05 ... okay, thanks everyone! 13:44:26 CharlesL has left #epub-fxl 13:45:07 zakim, end meeting 13:45:07 As of this point the attendees have been gpellegrino, laurab, CharlesL 13:45:08 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 13:45:08 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/25-epub-fxl-minutes.html Zakim 13:45:12 I am happy to have been of service, wendyreid; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 13:45:14 laurab has left #epub-fxl 13:45:16 Zakim has left #epub-fxl 13:45:31 rrsagent, make logs public 14:00:42 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:00:42 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/25-epub-fxl-minutes.html wendyreid 14:25:11 rrsagent, bye 14:25:11 I see no action items