IRC log of wcag-act on 2021-05-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:46:08 [RRSAgent]
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13:46:08 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/05/21-wcag-act-irc
13:46:11 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:46:12 [Zakim]
Meeting: Accessibility Conformance Testing Teleconference
13:46:42 [jeanne]
agenda+ Introduce Method and ACT Rules
13:46:53 [jeanne]
agenda?
13:47:11 [jeanne]
zakim, clear agenda
13:47:11 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
13:47:25 [jeanne]
agenda+ Introduce Method and ACT Rules
13:47:46 [jeanne]
agenda+ Quantitative and Qualitative tests
13:48:02 [jeanne]
agenda+ Do Methods need applicability?
13:48:22 [jeanne]
agenda_ Viability of AND/OR relationship (Outcomes have AND, Methods have OR)
13:48:33 [jeanne]
s/agenda_ Viability of AND/OR relationship (Outcomes have AND, Methods have OR)//
13:48:41 [jeanne]
agenda+ Viability of AND/OR relationship (Outcomes have AND, Methods have OR)
13:48:58 [jeanne]
agenda+ Passing rules vs. failing rules
13:49:10 [jeanne]
agenda+ Expectations vs. Test Procedures
13:49:19 [jeanne]
agenda+ Next Steps
13:53:00 [sajkaj]
present+
13:54:17 [Daniel]
present+
13:54:41 [shadi]
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13:57:04 [trevor]
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13:57:34 [ChrisLoiselle]
is there a link to the meeting in zoom ?
13:57:42 [ChrisLoiselle]
present+
13:58:06 [ChrisLoiselle]
nevermind, found it : )
13:58:24 [Wilco]
present+
13:58:31 [KenP]
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13:58:37 [shadi]
present+
13:58:43 [shadi]
agenda?
13:58:50 [trevor]
present+
13:59:00 [jeanne]
chair: Wilco and Jeanne
13:59:07 [Chuck]
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13:59:30 [Dimitri]
Unable to join the meeting
13:59:35 [JF]
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13:59:48 [JF]
Present+
14:00:27 [Lauriat]
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14:00:44 [JF]
agenda?
14:00:50 [JakeAbma]
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14:00:58 [Lauriat]
Present+
14:00:59 [Dimitri]
I figured the issue. Thanks Wilco
14:00:59 [JakeAbma]
present+
14:01:04 [kathyeng]
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14:02:17 [Daniel]
scribe: Daniel
14:02:28 [kathyeng]
present+
14:02:29 [sheri_b-h]
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14:02:30 [jeanne]
present+
14:02:34 [sheri_b-h]
present+
14:02:37 [KenP]
present+
14:02:43 [Daniel]
zakim, take up next
14:02:43 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Introduce Method and ACT Rules -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:02:54 [anne_thyme]
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14:03:20 [anne_thyme]
present+
14:03:34 [johnkirkwood]
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14:03:50 [aron]
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14:03:56 [aron]
present+
14:04:11 [johnkirkwood]
present+
14:04:14 [Daniel]
Wilco: Last time we had close look at outcomes. We came to the conclusion that outcomes needs to be defined, and those definitions hopefully could be written in collaboration with ACT
14:04:50 [Daniel]
... feting we wnat to have acloser look at some ACT rules, specifically those related to headings and how they can be applied to the current methods for WCAG3
14:04:55 [Wilco]
https://act-rules.github.io/rules/b49b2e
14:05:03 [CarlosD]
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14:05:20 [Francis_Storr]
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14:05:40 [Daniel]
... First is "Heading is descriptive". Checks that anything marked up as semantic heading describes the next piece of content in the document
14:05:51 [JF]
Q+
14:06:06 [Francis_Storr]
present+
14:06:17 [Daniel]
... We link to definitions developed in ACT
14:06:18 [Wilco]
ack jf
14:06:19 [CarlosD]
present+
14:07:18 [Daniel]
JF: When you say the semantic role is h1-h6 as well as aria role="heading"?
14:07:20 [JakeAbma]
q+
14:07:22 [Daniel]
Wilco: Yes.
14:08:05 [Wilco]
ack ja
14:08:06 [Daniel]
... We currently don't have a rule testing that things looking like headings are coded as headings
14:08:18 [CarlosD]
q+
14:08:35 [Daniel]
Jake: Captions and legends that look like headings are part of the rule or there are alternatives to those?
14:08:50 [Daniel]
Wilco: No, this rule is about what ARIA calls a heading
14:09:08 [SuzanneTaylor]
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14:09:19 [Daniel]
... A column header is not a heading as per ARIA definition
14:09:43 [Daniel]
... Headers or fieldsets applies to tables or forms, so different scope
14:09:45 [Wilco]
ack ca
14:10:42 [Daniel]
Carlos: That was our initial goal, but could not find an objective way to define a heading from what it looks like
14:11:40 [Daniel]
Wilco: We could eventually look into it now that we have developed somewhat more complicated rules. We now have a vocabulary we can rely on as we have been working on definitions that are not even in WCAG
14:11:55 [Daniel]
Wilco: After the applicability there are two expectations
14:12:28 [SUrban]
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14:12:43 [Wilco]
q?
14:12:46 [Daniel]
... 1 that the visual heading describes the content< 2 that the accessibility tree bit describes the content. Those 2 need to be true for the rule to pass.
14:13:37 [Daniel]
Wilco: Assumptions. When to use and not to use this particular rule. Mainly covering edge cases.
14:14:11 [Daniel]
... For example there are language that do not have a code, so they are not programmatically determined
14:14:47 [Daniel]
... Accessibility support: Describes if there are differences in how browsers and ATS behave. This one is about presentational role conflicts that exist.
14:14:57 [Daniel]
... Background: links to related technologies and WCAG techniques
14:15:02 [JF]
Q+
14:15:10 [Daniel]
... Then test cases: passing, failing, and inapplicable
14:15:36 [Daniel]
... Test cases give you examples of right and wrong practices and describe them
14:16:00 [Daniel]
... And also for somebody using the rule to have achance to compare expected to actual outcomes
14:16:14 [Daniel]
... Glossary lists definitions
14:16:16 [Wilco]
ack jf
14:17:03 [sheri_b-h]
q+
14:17:10 [Daniel]
JF: These are mechanical testable rules, but some require human intervention.
14:17:23 [Daniel]
Wilco: We don't specify how and when human intervention is required
14:17:38 [Wilco]
ack sh
14:17:38 [KenP]
q+
14:17:47 [Daniel]
JF: The rules format can ber used to write machine and human testable rules?
14:17:53 [Daniel]
Wilco: Yes
14:18:10 [JenniferC]
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14:18:28 [Daniel]
Sheri: There is a project that can test headings based on the surounding content
14:18:39 [Wilco]
ack ken
14:18:41 [Daniel]
... Also about contrast, keyboard focus indicators
14:19:02 [sheri_b-h]
https://github.com/vmware/crest
14:19:26 [Daniel]
Ken: Pass example 7, hidden heading, but visible. I thought both expectations have to be passed.
14:19:32 [sheri_b-h]
We have 16 other tests that are currently not automated that we think we can automate with machine learning in the next year
14:19:41 [Daniel]
... Why is this passed?
14:20:10 [Daniel]
Carlos: The rule checks that the heading is descriptive, ont that the content is described by the heading
14:20:46 [Daniel]
... If the heading is not included in the accessibility tree and there is no other heading that is included, then this would pass
14:21:04 [jeanne]
q+ to say Example 7 has an impact in Outcomes
14:21:19 [Daniel]
Ken: Was there debate about that causing issues? It seems confusing
14:21:49 [Daniel]
... There is counter-examples as well, where something is a heading but is not visible
14:21:52 [Wilco]
ack je
14:21:52 [Zakim]
jeanne, you wanted to say Example 7 has an impact in Outcomes
14:22:38 [Daniel]
Jeanne: I think we may be handling this in WCAG3. We wrote outcomes to have and AND relationship, but the methods were talking about OR, as they are technology oriented
14:23:08 [Daniel]
... I think we would handle this by saying "this is a pass example for the outcomes that headings need to describe, but it would fail the outcome that they need to be semantically available"
14:23:18 [Daniel]
... As you have to pass every single outcomes, we would pick it up
14:23:42 [anne_thyme]
q+
14:23:45 [Daniel]
Ken: I think I am now clearer
14:23:48 [Wilco]
ack an
14:24:38 [Daniel]
Anne: This rule is testing an SC which do not distinguish between visible and semantic headings. As we need to have a fail-to-fail relationship in ACT, we needed to test it that way
14:25:05 [Daniel]
Wilco: True, WCAG does not define headings
14:25:07 [Wilco]
https://act-rules.github.io/rules/047fe0
14:25:40 [Daniel]
Wilco: Rule "Document is heading for non-repeated content
14:26:01 [Daniel]
... Part of a different rule, called "Bypass blocks" testing the SC about bypass blocks
14:26:26 [Daniel]
... Composite: if anyone of the rules included (atomics) passes, the composite passes
14:26:39 [Chuck]
present+
14:26:58 [Daniel]
... The applicability here is the HTML web page as bypass blocks applies to web pages
14:27:15 [MichaelC]
present+
14:27:38 [Daniel]
... Expectation is similar, it has a bunch of definitions, and it looks for any element that is a heading, that is visible, that is included in the accessibility tree, and that is after a block of repeated content
14:27:40 [Wilco]
q?
14:28:18 [Daniel]
zakim, take up next
14:28:18 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- Quantitative and Qualitative tests -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:28:26 [jeanne]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG3/2020/methods/relevant-headings/
14:28:45 [Daniel]
Jeanne: Current methods for relevant headings. It has five tabs.
14:29:09 [Daniel]
... It has an introduction about platform and technology. It then has a description section that connects it to the relevant outcome
14:29:30 [Daniel]
... It describe the methods, and then it has automated and manual tests
14:29:46 [Daniel]
... And last tab is resources.
14:29:49 [Daniel]
... We are open to changing this
14:30:32 [Daniel]
... We are open to including ACT format, or to linking to specific ACT rules
14:30:41 [Wilco]
q+
14:30:51 [Daniel]
... How do we change the methods format to better integrate it with ACT rules?
14:31:17 [Daniel]
Wilco: Let's talk more about the difference between atomic and holistic testing. How do you have both in the same method?
14:31:22 [Wilco]
ack wi
14:32:13 [ChrisLoiselle]
Reference point for current discussion https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/#types-of-tests , https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/#atomic-tests and https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/#holistic-tests
14:32:16 [Daniel]
Jeanne: The holistic tests would be a way to include more usability oriented testing, how to test with ATS. Probably they need to be split into different methods
14:33:26 [Daniel]
... We received a lot of feeedback about this design that was mostly critical. People did not like atomic tests as they could be confused with ACT testing.
14:34:25 [Daniel]
... Most of the comments were focused on the testing tab, so we are open to changing that
14:34:49 [Daniel]
... One of the proposals we have is, instead of looking at manual versus automated testing, we could look at qualitative versus quantitative testing
14:34:52 [JF]
Q+
14:35:02 [Wilco]
q+
14:35:24 [JF]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG3/2020/methods/relevant-headings/
14:36:28 [jeanne]
Q+ to say there are 3 Methods about headings
14:37:07 [Daniel]
JF: We have been testing for methods as opposed to outcomes. Now we have methods for relevant headings in our draft. When I look at the test procedure, it seems that we are missing that the heading needs to be exposed in the accessibility tree. Also I miss hierarchy in our test procedure. I am not sure how to address that question overall
14:37:19 [Wilco]
ack jf
14:37:20 [JF]
ack me
14:37:20 [Wilco]
ack je
14:37:20 [Zakim]
jeanne, you wanted to say there are 3 Methods about headings
14:38:27 [Daniel]
Jeanne: We have anumber of outcomes under each guideline. In headings we have three methods. They are associated with different outcomes, I think John is bringing an edge case but probably not to address now in this conversation
14:38:43 [Wilco]
ack me
14:38:44 [Daniel]
... If you write it down John we could either save it for later or for another meeting
14:38:47 [ToddLibby_]
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14:39:40 [Daniel]
Wilco: Subjective and unambiguous are importance concepts we apply. We have a requirement that applicability needs to be unambiguous
14:40:01 [Daniel]
... The number of headings is quantitative< contrast is qualitative
14:40:35 [ToddLibby_]
present+
14:40:53 [Daniel]
... Opposed to that, we have the requirement that expectation can be subjective, but it cannot be ambiguous. When an expectation is ambiguous it will result in different people testing it in different way, thus getting different results
14:41:15 [ChrisLoiselle]
For context of JF'ss and Jeanne's comment on prior topic and how it relates to WCAG 3 - Guideline is on https://w3c.github.io/silver/guidelines/#structured-content and talks to outcomes and methods, for example - https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG3/2020/outcomes/uses-visually-distinct-headings and https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG3/2020/outcomes/conveys-hierarchy-with-semantic-structure
14:41:31 [jeanne]
q+
14:41:31 [Daniel]
... This allows us to be much more precise in what needs to be tested
14:41:36 [Wilco]
ack je
14:42:59 [Daniel]
Jeanne: It also gives us a way to pick a qualitative assessment in headings for example (how well does the description apply), as the rules does a good job defining the two extremes.
14:43:46 [Daniel]
... We could then set up the boundaries of how good the description is, and then describe different numeric categories or ratings as well
14:44:06 [Daniel]
... I would like to start with quantitative testing first, though
14:44:25 [Daniel]
... I am interested on members of ACT commenting about this approach and about if it would fit into what you are doing
14:44:41 [JF]
+1
14:44:47 [CarlosD]
+1
14:44:48 [jeanne]
+1 for quantitative as much as possible
14:44:55 [Daniel]
Trevor: I am leaning towards quantitative as much as possible, qualitative tends to be more difficult
14:44:58 [Chuck]
q?
14:45:00 [Chuck]
q+
14:45:14 [shadi]
+1 to Trevor
14:45:17 [Daniel]
... "Setting up those bou8ndaries" might sound a bit hard
14:45:22 [Wilco]
ack ch
14:45:41 [shadi]
q+
14:45:49 [Chuck]
ack Ch
14:46:14 [Wilco]
q+
14:46:16 [Daniel]
Jake: Same issue exists on WCAG2, this is not a unique issue that we are introducing
14:46:50 [Wilco]
ack sh
14:46:52 [Daniel]
Jeanne: I agree Trevor that we should use quantitative as much as possible. But we have examples in WCAG2 where we would need a better qualitative testing, that's what we need to explore
14:46:53 [jeanne]
s/Jake: /Chuck:
14:47:35 [Daniel]
Shadi: I think the difference between WCAG2 and first draft of WCAG3 is the multiple possibilities. I agree that makes is very complicated.
14:47:43 [jeanne]
+1 that text alternatives covers too much
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14:48:35 [Shri]
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14:48:40 [Daniel]
... Text alternatives currently covers too much, and it could be broken down into smaller pieces so that the decision space would be more limited
14:48:51 [trevor]
+1 for breaking down further to reduce decision space, wonder if that will increase or decrease barrier to entry
14:48:56 [jeanne]
+1 that I think text alternatives should be broken into much finer outcomes as Shadi suggests.
14:49:12 [JF]
related: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Problem_Statements#Human_Testable
14:49:12 [Lauriat]
+1
14:49:39 [Daniel]
... The heading requirements are more specific.
14:49:39 [JF]
+1
14:49:52 [CarlosD]
+1 to breaking down the decision space
14:50:05 [Daniel]
... I would argue to break down the requirements themselves rather than to offer more qualitative choices
14:50:24 [JenniferC]
+1
14:50:30 [johnkirkwood]
+1
14:50:46 [Dimitri]
+1
14:51:10 [CarlosD]
q+
14:51:15 [Daniel]
Wilco: Qualitative from ACT perspective is that it is unambiguous, when I say something is good I must mean the same thing as somebody else that says good as well
14:51:18 [jeanne]
q+ to note that breaking down the Outcomes to a finer state
14:51:33 [Daniel]
... When we introduce "better", that allows a lot of options in between, a lot of granularity
14:51:40 [JF]
+1 to granularity in testing
14:51:51 [JakeAbma]
q+
14:51:58 [Wilco]
ack wi
14:52:07 [Wilco]
ack ca
14:53:28 [Wilco]
ack je
14:53:29 [Zakim]
jeanne, you wanted to note that breaking down the Outcomes to a finer state
14:53:55 [Daniel]
Carlos: I agree with what Shadi was saying. From ACT perspective, tests need to as quantitative as possible. They need to be reputable. I wonder, if we need to have qualitative tests in WCAG3, can't it be achieved by passing certain tests but having those tests be really small in scope?
14:55:03 [Daniel]
Jeanne: Qualitative could be giving guidance to a tester or a developer as to what makes something good and this is what makes it even better
14:55:44 [Daniel]
... Certain techniques are more preffered than others, so we could guide people to use these but still don't fail people who use others that are also good
14:55:51 [JF]
Q+ to note that guidance and normative requirements are separate ideas.
14:55:59 [Daniel]
... We want to design a system to give people a better score for doing things better
14:56:15 [Wilco]
q?
14:56:20 [Daniel]
... Maybe we should not do it in testing, though.
14:56:20 [Wilco]
ack ja
14:57:11 [jeanne]
q+ to say what I queued for
14:58:26 [anne_thyme]
q+
14:59:11 [Daniel]
Jake: I hear two different approaches. Breaking up methods down is how testers are doing it already. How can we provide those extra rating, better, or worse, and make a difference with respect to pass/fail but still do it objectively?
14:59:20 [Jennifer_strickland]
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14:59:32 [Jennifer_strickland]
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14:59:39 [Wilco]
ack je
14:59:39 [Zakim]
jeanne, you wanted to say what I queued for
15:00:30 [Daniel]
Jeanne: I support braking down outcomes into detailed level.
15:00:40 [ToddLibby_]
Does someone have the Zoom link, please? I can't get on the telecom info page.
15:00:40 [Chuck]
q+ to ask if we need a scribe change
15:01:02 [Daniel]
... We would like to work with ACT on this, we would appreciate your guidance in how to break outcomes appropriately so that they are easier to test.
15:01:03 [jstrickland]
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15:01:20 [jstrickland]
present+
15:01:51 [Daniel]
... Back to Jake's question, many of these micro quantitative testings could be written for assessing the grade in a qualitative level
15:02:03 [ToddLibby_]
that's giving me a 403 page, shadi.
15:02:30 [Daniel]
... If a heading describes the topic but then the next piece of content has multiple topics, the heading would describe the content but won't do it very well as there are multiple topics in the piece of content
15:02:44 [Daniel]
... We would need very strict rules to define which goes into which category
15:02:52 [Chuck]
ack Ch
15:02:52 [Zakim]
Chuck, you wanted to ask if we need a scribe change
15:03:00 [kathyeng]
q+ to say qualitative is up to author
15:03:41 [jstrickland]
scribe: jstrickland
15:03:49 [Wilco]
q?
15:04:00 [ToddLibby_]
shadi: thank you
15:04:00 [Wilco]
ack jf
15:04:00 [Zakim]
JF, you wanted to note that guidance and normative requirements are separate ideas.
15:05:00 [jstrickland]
jf: there's guidance, then normative requirements. Problem now seems to be merging those two together. When it
15:05:10 [Daniel]
s/Breaking up methods down/Breaking up outcomes/
15:05:27 [jstrickland]
When its easy to measure, that's one thing. Trying to use that type of measurement on subjective observations, seems to be why we get into problem.
15:05:55 [Wilco]
ack an
15:05:58 [jstrickland]
Such as what's good alt text. Perhaps we try to stop scoring everything using the same metrics, as Bruce commented in the past.
15:06:39 [jeanne]
+1 to Anne.
15:06:44 [shadi]
+1 to Anne
15:06:48 [JF]
+1 to Anne
15:07:15 [jstrickland]
Kathyeng: perhaps take ambiguity out of normative text. If you read the normative text and not learn anything, then have to research to try to understand the understanding docs. Keep the important parts in normative text, and that it is unambiguous.
15:07:40 [jstrickland]
And, that we take the testing parts, have the same strictness as the ACT rules.
15:07:47 [CarlosD]
+1 to Anne
15:08:12 [jstrickland]
Easier to write the strict rule to begin, than to go in the reverse.
15:08:31 [jeanne]
q+ Proposal: Resolution that we recommend that Outcomes are more granualar and precise at the normative level
15:08:34 [jstrickland]
Requirements have been written in too fluffy a way.
15:08:36 [jeanne]
q+
15:08:37 [JenniferC]
+1
15:08:39 [Wilco]
ack ka
15:08:39 [Zakim]
kathyeng, you wanted to say qualitative is up to author
15:08:58 [jstrickland]
Correction: That was credited to Anne, not kathyeng.
15:09:45 [jstrickland]
kathyeng: sometimes we look at … have to defer to authors, where do you want breaks, how descriptive… in the relevant headings check, it would be really difficult for a tester to say it should be divided and separated here…
15:10:06 [jstrickland]
I'd appreciate that there's guidelines to evaluate this, but I don't know that those could encounter all he scenarios a tester could encounter.
15:10:16 [JakeAbma]
q+
15:10:25 [jstrickland]
ACT examples are very clear, but we rarely encounter those in real world testing.
15:10:56 [Wilco]
ack je
15:11:46 [jstrickland]
Jeanne: outcomes s/b more granular (seems lots of agreement). the way we've set up outcomes, you need to pass all the outcomes for a particular guideline (unless not applicable)…
15:12:09 [alastairc]
q+ on NAs
15:12:11 [jstrickland]
I worry there will be a lot more non-applicable.
15:12:17 [jstrickland]
do ppl think that's okay?
15:12:19 [JF]
If the N/A's are mostly machine-testing items, then it shouldn't matter
15:12:24 [Wilco]
ack ja
15:12:26 [trevor]
q+
15:12:50 [SuzanneTaylor]
-1 putting that detail at the outcome level can also leave gaps
15:13:14 [shadi]
q+
15:13:18 [jstrickland]
Jake: if you take images and alternatives, and break them up, then still have question… breaking up a criteria doesn't solve that one.
15:13:20 [sajkaj]
+1 to no problem with NA. It's only a problem when humans look at the output, but if it facilitates more automatable testing, it's a worthy tradeoff, imo
15:14:10 [jstrickland]
what I hear in this conversation, they want to have the wording stricter, clear pass/fail, and I understand. I think the complete opposite is what silver wants, to break up, and make more loose, yet still have a way to measure.
15:15:10 [trevor]
q-
15:15:22 [jstrickland]
wilco: point of order: I would like this conversation to focus on if it can be done, and how act can help to do it, and less about silver scope.
15:15:41 [jstrickland]
how can we apply the lessons learned from ACT to wcag3?
15:15:51 [jstrickland]
Jake: yes, it's all about pass/fail
15:15:52 [Wilco]
ack al
15:15:52 [Zakim]
alastairc, you wanted to comment on NAs
15:15:57 [jeanne]
q+ to respond to very strict hard pass fail vs open COGA testing
15:16:21 [jstrickland]
Alastair: I am constantly staggered by the ways devs can implement what would be simple things.
15:16:51 [jstrickland]
I worry that if the eventual pass/fail is restricted to… [not following]…
15:17:37 [Wilco]
ack sh
15:17:39 [jstrickland]
I think if we go to easier to understand and easy to test, whether more outcomes or outcomes are longer… is what I'm picking up.
15:17:44 [jeanne]
+1 to longer
15:18:18 [alastairc]
s/restricted to… [not following]/restricted to the sub-set of requirements that are strictly quantitative
15:18:21 [jstrickland]
shadi: I don't think the n/a is an issue. … we do have principles/guidelines under success criteria.
15:19:09 [jstrickland]
I think it's a design prob, there are many ways to design this… structured in a nice way, that you find what applies to your particular situation, without these n/a in a report. conceptually, if we agree/not about making things more specific/clear.
15:19:45 [jstrickland]
... next point, what Jake was talking about, how can we write more reqs that are not easy to test, that are ...
15:20:25 [JF]
+1 shadi
15:20:56 [jstrickland]
... I really see no reason to water down the current reqs, but we still have these differences, as Anne pointed out. I was astonished to see testers have different interpretations of requirements. I worry it will cause more inefficiencies. I'm not convinced that things aren't that different,, rather we haven't found a way of writing them.
15:21:26 [Wilco]
ack je
15:21:26 [Zakim]
jeanne, you wanted to respond to very strict hard pass fail vs open COGA testing
15:21:27 [jstrickland]
... I think it w/b unfortunate if we can find a way to improve the content of wcag, since we do have act. it doesn't mean we have to leave out COGA or other.
15:22:34 [jstrickland]
Jeanne: answer Jake's point re want to do ambitiously improve the content we have, and include more complex testing. Jake is right, we do want to do that. What we want to do in this call is improve the content we have and the testing we have, then we can test against the new content we have. but is beyond scope of today's call.
15:23:23 [jstrickland]
... today, focus on quantitative testing and a need for qualitative… as much as I like the idea, w/ alt text as an example, I don't want someone to be able to pass by putting "image", "image"… and pass.
15:23:47 [jstrickland]
... just as heading to be descriptive, I think that's the key rule we're looking for in the example.
15:24:10 [Wilco]
q+
15:24:37 [jstrickland]
... and in response to Alastair, how devs can do different things, it w/b helpful to easily create more methods. I hope that's not at an outcome level. pardon me if my thoughts are a bit blurry. I think having precise outcomes that are narrow and tech neutral…
15:24:39 [JF]
Q+ to note that we can all agree that "image", "image", "image" = BAD, but defining GOOD is a lot harder
15:24:57 [jstrickland]
... then more --- I lost my train of thought. if Alastair talks more, it make come back.
15:25:09 [jstrickland]
Wilco, check back with Jake if that answered the question.
15:25:53 [jstrickland]
Jake: I was thinking of my exact question, I guess I find in Jeanne's word, how ACT can help with Silver. I thought it was also to see if we can go a step further. I'd like to know if there's room for anything beyond pass/fail.
15:26:14 [Wilco]
ack
15:26:15 [jstrickland]
... I thought another way of approaching pass/fail w/b on the agenda.
15:26:35 [Wilco]
ack jf
15:26:35 [Zakim]
JF, you wanted to note that we can all agree that "image", "image", "image" = BAD, but defining GOOD is a lot harder
15:26:39 [jstrickland]
Wilco asking Jeanne: can we get to some conclusions on that,
15:27:08 [jstrickland]
JF: example Jeanne gave of three images on a page, can agree; yet defining what is good is what we can't come to an agreement on.
15:28:01 [jstrickland]
... it seems we may not get to an answer on that, because it is so subjective. testing tools can help isolate instances of bad… at the end of the day, trying to score/reward good alt text, I don't see how we can do in a normative way.
15:28:03 [jeanne]
q+ to propose that we all agree that the Outcomes should be more precise
15:28:10 [jstrickland]
Wilco, pass the ball back to Jeanne.
15:28:12 [Wilco]
ack je
15:28:12 [Zakim]
jeanne, you wanted to propose that we all agree that the Outcomes should be more precise
15:28:14 [Wilco]
ack wi
15:28:35 [jstrickland]
Jeanne: I'd like to do a straw poll, if ppl agree that the outcomes at a normative level need to be more precise, and there should be more of them.
15:28:52 [Chuck]
+1 more outcomes, more precision
15:28:54 [jeanne]
Proposed: Outcomes should be more precise and there should be more of them
15:30:13 [SuzanneTaylor]
q+
15:30:21 [jstrickland]
Jake: I think in the document it mentions it is not complete, that they are just to give an impression. How can we decide if we don't have a set already?
15:30:29 [jstrickland]
... if know they already lack outcomes.
15:30:30 [Wilco]
ack su
15:31:02 [jstrickland]
Suzanne: Risk of moving … [missed]
15:31:03 [Wilco]
q+
15:31:26 [jstrickland]
... if we put it at the outcome level, where it's normative, we may not be able to catch some of these new things as they come up.
15:31:47 [jeanne]
+1 very good point that we don't want to create a list that excludes
15:31:55 [jstrickland]
wilco: when you ask 'precise' can we say they need to be 'unambiguous', need to be more granular, is that fair to say?
15:31:57 [Wilco]
ack wi
15:32:11 [JF]
+1 to granularity
15:32:13 [jstrickland]
question for jeanne
15:32:36 [jstrickland]
Jeanne: I think 'unambiguous' is a better word than 'precise'. I'm mulling over Suzanne's point.
15:33:13 [SuzanneTaylor]
s/[missed]/methods such as the methods for different types of images up to the outcome level
15:33:26 [jstrickland]
... I know Charles hall brings this up, that when we bring up a list, we already exclude anything in the list (is this right?). maybe table that for another meeting, I don't know. Wilco, do you see a point forward that includes Suzanne's?
15:33:35 [SuzanneTaylor]
q+
15:34:06 [jstrickland]
... part of the reason we lumped things together in one outcome (in alt text), because we wanted to run an alt text that didn't need to know how the image was being used, then a qual test that eval how well the image was done.
15:34:52 [jstrickland]
... I think we can agree the outcomes s/b unambiguous…
15:35:33 [jstrickland]
... i need to think more about what Suzanne raised.
15:35:35 [Wilco]
ack su
15:36:20 [Wilco]
q+
15:36:39 [jstrickland]
Suzanne: I just wanted to say we do have tests down at the method level, as well. Maybe we could have something more general, but unambiguous at the outcome level and then more precise at the method level. that way at the outcome level, you're still covered for what may come up, then at method you're covered by specific test scenarios.
15:36:48 [Wilco]
ack wi
15:36:54 [jstrickland]
Wilco: pointing out Anne described the opposite, and got a lot of +1s.
15:37:04 [jstrickland]
Jeanne: I think the resolution s/b
15:37:38 [jeanne]
Proposed resolution that we agree that Outcomes need to be unambiguous
15:37:56 [Wilco]
+1
15:37:58 [trevor]
+1
15:38:02 [jeanne]
+1
15:38:03 [JF]
+1 to Outcomes need to be unambiguous
15:38:05 [Lauriat]
+1
15:38:05 [kathyeng]
+1
15:38:06 [ToddLibby_]
+1
15:38:07 [JakeAbma]
+1 / -1
15:38:09 [SuzanneTaylor]
+1
15:38:10 [Shri]
+1
15:38:11 [JakeAbma]
q+
15:38:12 [CarlosD]
+1
15:38:13 [KenP]
+1
15:38:15 [jstrickland]
+1
15:38:22 [Wilco]
ack ja
15:39:04 [JustineP]
JustineP has joined #wcag-act
15:39:13 [alastairc]
Nothing communicated in human language is completely unambiguous, I think it has to be relative, e.g. less ambiguous (longer where necessary) than the 2.x criteria
15:39:40 [JF]
Q+
15:39:41 [jstrickland]
Jake: if we break up criteria… 800, 900, 1k, more clear outcomes… if that's the result, will we all still say +1? Is that more clear for ppl if we split them up to hundreds?
15:40:10 [Jemma]
present+
15:40:16 [JustineP]
present+
15:40:18 [Wilco]
q+
15:40:25 [SuzanneTaylor]
present+
15:41:08 [jstrickland]
Alastair: nothing we phrase in human language is completely unambiguous, key is where are we drawing the line, on the normative aspect and the more detailed testing info beneath that. taken to extreme in either direction isn't helpful. I think we're saying outcomes will be less ambiguous, and potentially longer, than wcag 2.x.
15:41:37 [jeanne]
Proposed: Outcomes will be less ambiguous and longer in explanation
15:42:00 [jeanne]
+1 to JF and more automated tests and less manual
15:42:03 [jstrickland]
JF: Jake brings a good point, if the 900 gets us machine-testable idk. it's the effort to complete the tests -- like binary/boolean -- then it's good. Less concerned about number of tests, more that can be handed off to machine testing.
15:42:49 [jeanne]
q+ to wrap up
15:42:50 [Wilco]
q?
15:42:51 [jstrickland]
Jake: it's less about testing than about outcomes in silver. do we want a lot more outcomes, or does one outcome be divided in more tests? if that's true, then do we need them at the method level? if they are testable statement, they are already.
15:42:54 [Wilco]
ack jf
15:43:03 [JF]
A huge +1 to "testable statments"
15:43:55 [jstrickland]
Jeanne: we've gotten a fair way away from qual vs quant question… I'd like to remind we are trying to put together a proposal to be tested with data. if doesn't work, will be revised. we're trying to find something that can be tested at the method level today.
15:44:38 [jstrickland]
... if we find something that can't, we'll come back and revisit. I'd like to focus on testing today, merging act rules and silver methods. I don't want to ignore the broader issues, but want to focus.
15:45:05 [jstrickland]
... where we were is, do we agree that we should propose making the outcomes less ambiguous?
15:45:14 [Wilco]
q-
15:45:17 [jstrickland]
[11:42] <jeanne> +1 to JF and more automated tests and less manual [11:42] <jstrickl
15:45:20 [jeanne]
ack jea
15:45:20 [Zakim]
jeanne, you wanted to wrap up
15:45:21 [sajkaj]
+1 to JS
15:45:26 [Wilco]
+1
15:45:29 [trevor]
+1
15:45:31 [anne_thyme]
+1
15:45:31 [JenniferC]
+1
15:45:32 [jstrickland]
+1
15:45:35 [kathyeng]
+1
15:45:37 [KenP]
+1
15:45:41 [alastairc]
+1
15:45:42 [JF]
+1 I agree with the statement (perhaps change longer to "more detailed", but...)
15:45:42 [johnkirkwood]
+1
15:45:44 [ToddLibby_]
+1
15:45:46 [Shri]
+1
15:45:52 [JustineP]
+1
15:46:13 [JakeAbma]
+1
15:46:26 [jeanne]
zakim, take up next
15:46:26 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Do Methods need applicability? -- taken up [from jeanne]
15:47:36 [trevor]
q+
15:48:38 [Wilco]
ack tr
15:48:42 [jstrickland]
Wilco: the applicability of an act rule is that it is objective. what part of this can we define in an objective way? what's the scope that can go with that applicability?
15:49:21 [jeanne]
q+ to answer trever
15:49:25 [JF]
+1 to Trevor
15:49:27 [Wilco]
ack je
15:49:27 [Zakim]
jeanne, you wanted to answer trever
15:49:27 [jstrickland]
Trevor: I'm trying to get an idea of how this is going. I'm trying to imagine how this applicability applies for a single method, how does that mix with different tests? Do we match some tests with part of the applicability?
15:49:59 [jstrickland]
Jeanne: I think the way is each method is tech-specific, diff for HTML, epub, or PDF.
15:50:06 [JakeAbma]
q+
15:50:32 [jstrickland]
... as we become more precise with ACT's assistance, we may change that. I think we can see this applied to semantics in HTML, which w/b HTML specific.
15:50:55 [jstrickland]
Trevor: I was looking at the headings, and wondered how applicability got mixed in there, or was a special case.
15:51:04 [Wilco]
ack ja
15:51:08 [jstrickland]
Jeanne: I think it's a special case, and if it needs diff methods for diff tech.
15:52:01 [jeanne]
q+ to answer
15:52:07 [Wilco]
ack je
15:52:07 [Zakim]
jeanne, you wanted to answer
15:52:08 [jstrickland]
Jake: I think that may not be the complete answer, we decided 1/2 a year ago that we would have a fallback method that would be tech agnostic due to new tech that may come along… that would cover the outcome. there w/b tech specific methods, but always a tech agnostic method, too, for every outcome.
15:52:14 [shadi]
q+
15:52:23 [jstrickland]
Jeanne: we talked about this in a mtg, and agreed it was a great idea, but no one did it.
15:52:32 [jstrickland]
Jake: but we know it doesn't work if it's not there.
15:52:38 [jstrickland]
Jeanne: but we need ppl to write them.
15:52:55 [jstrickland]
... we need someone to write it, so we test it.
15:53:41 [jstrickland]
Jake: for the ppl who were not around at the time, it came from using headings and the approach, then we saw different heading elements -- like Android and ARIA, and WCAG now, where tech and methods are not complete, ppl can have their own methods, or tech proceeds…
15:54:02 [jstrickland]
... and to open up for that we decided to come up with a fallback method; that they are not there does not mean they are not needed.
15:54:07 [Wilco]
qq+
15:54:07 [jeanne]
q+
15:54:09 [shadi]
q-
15:54:18 [jeanne]
q-
15:54:32 [jstrickland]
Scribe would like to have someone else pickup at the top of the hour, please. Need a bio break.
15:54:33 [Wilco]
ack w
15:54:33 [Zakim]
Wilco, you wanted to react to jeanne
15:56:21 [jstrickland]
Wilco: they are not unambiguous if we don't cover how they are applicable to technology -- was that right?
15:56:23 [jeanne]
+1 to following the ACT model of Applicability
15:56:42 [trevor]
+1 for applicability
15:56:47 [shadi]
+1 to applicability for technology-specific methods
15:56:49 [joesaiyang]
+1
15:56:50 [SuzanneTaylor]
+1
15:56:56 [KenP]
+1
15:56:59 [Lauriat]
+1
15:57:30 [Wilco]
straw poll: Add applicability to the WCAG 3 methods, similar to how ACT rules have an applicability
15:57:36 [jstrickland]
+1
15:57:38 [trevor]
+1
15:57:39 [CarlosD]
+1
15:57:40 [sajkaj]
+1
15:57:41 [KenP]
+1
15:57:42 [JenniferC]
+1
15:57:42 [Lauriat]
+1
15:57:44 [kathyeng]
+1
15:57:44 [Francis_Storr]
+1
15:57:46 [SuzanneTaylor]
+1
15:57:47 [ToddLibby_]
+1
15:57:47 [JustineP]
+1
15:57:48 [JakeAbma]
+1
15:57:49 [JF]
+1
15:57:55 [sajkaj]
scribe: sajkaj
15:58:00 [jeanne]
+1 with Shadi's addition of Technology-specific methods
15:58:12 [Shri]
+1
15:58:14 [Wilco]
RESOLUTION: Add applicability to the WCAG 3 methods, similar to how ACT rules have an applicability
15:59:08 [jeanne]
zakim, take up next
15:59:08 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- Viability of AND/OR relationship (Outcomes have AND, Methods have OR) -- taken up [from jeanne]
15:59:47 [sajkaj]
ann: Is it that there's one test per method
15:59:53 [sajkaj]
wilco: Next agendum!
15:59:58 [shadi]
s/ann/anne
16:00:15 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Definitely an area where we need ACT guidance
16:00:46 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Outcomes are an .AND. relationship; one must pass all outcomes
16:01:07 [sajkaj]
jeanne: .OR> in methods
16:01:26 [sajkaj]
jeanne: we have written multiple tests in methods, but not necessary. Open to changing that
16:01:34 [sajkaj]
ann: No opinion yet, wondering how it will work
16:01:42 [shadi]
s/ann/anne
16:01:43 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Perhaps an example of where it wouldn't work?
16:02:07 [sajkaj]
ann: Not at the moment -- Perhaps the example shown earlier and capability may have not been parallel
16:02:27 [sajkaj]
ann: Don't believe the atomic tests would have the same applicability
16:02:40 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Thinkwe could ignore for now ...
16:02:59 [sajkaj]
jeanne: But, can we reference two rules -- in a single method for relevant headings?
16:03:06 [Wilco]
q+
16:03:13 [sajkaj]
ann: Not sure
16:03:55 [sajkaj]
ann: Guessing html would be an applicability; and another method for an Android app view
16:04:58 [sajkaj]
jeanne: If we assume a particular method just for html; could we have applicability one rule applies to any page, and a second rule with a different heuristic
16:05:23 [sajkaj]
wilco: We've tried to keep our rules atomic, as small as we reasonably can
16:05:45 [sajkaj]
wilco: So combining different requirements into the same method can be done, but doesn't fit well into ACT
16:05:54 [sajkaj]
wilco: Also typical for testing
16:06:00 [JF]
+1 to Wilco
16:06:05 [sajkaj]
wilco: So, when one fails the failure is specific
16:06:19 [sajkaj]
wilco: As a result ACT rules are smaller than SC today
16:06:43 [JF]
Q+
16:06:46 [sajkaj]
wilco: Notes 4 rules relating to page lang
16:07:04 [jeanne]
ack wil
16:07:05 [sajkaj]
wilco: provides a precise way of testing
16:07:18 [sajkaj]
wilco: allows for breaking things up as much as possible
16:07:32 [sajkaj]
wilco: as a result, no one ACT rule informs whether a particular SC passes
16:07:51 [Wilco]
ack jf
16:08:15 [sajkaj]
jf: Assuming the lang testing is recursive?
16:08:24 [sajkaj]
wilco: NO
16:08:32 [sajkaj]
wilco: can be tested in any order
16:08:34 [jeanne]
q+ to say there is a third option and that would be to have multiple tests within an method and clearly state which ones are union and which are alternatives
16:08:55 [sajkaj]
jf: But there are dependencies?
16:09:11 [sajkaj]
wilco: There's a concept of relation, but each can be tested on its own
16:09:14 [Wilco]
ack je
16:09:14 [Zakim]
jeanne, you wanted to say there is a third option and that would be to have multiple tests within an method and clearly state which ones are union and which are alternatives
16:09:48 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Believes there's also multiple rules within a method and specify which are additive and which are alternatives
16:09:57 [SuzanneTaylor]
q+
16:09:59 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Putting these at the method level makes them more updatable
16:10:04 [Wilco]
q+
16:10:18 [jeanne]
ack suz
16:10:30 [sajkaj]
SuzanneTaylor: Agree with that; also that not all developers need to understand that granularity
16:11:06 [sajkaj]
SuzanneTaylor: I like having the detail, but also like having it on the test tab; better supports smaller orgs with fewer experts
16:11:23 [Jemma]
I am pondering about the statement that all developers do not need to understand details.
16:11:27 [jeanne]
+1 to keeping the gritty details in the Method
16:11:47 [sajkaj]
Wilco: Agrees with Jeanne; not a bad idea -- as long as they're designed to fit well together
16:12:24 [sajkaj]
Wilco: Will there be one to one between methods and outcomes? Or could html method have two outcomes?
16:12:28 [sajkaj]
jeanne: The latter
16:12:59 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Believe we had a method with multiple ways to approach
16:13:25 [Jemma]
good question, Wilco.
16:13:32 [sajkaj]
Wilco: How does that work with scoring where you could use either method to decide the score? Wouldn't that risk multiple scorine results?
16:14:11 [sajkaj]
jeanne: The testing results are interpreted at the normative level into a common point system because we designed to accomodate different kinds of testing approaches
16:14:51 [Jemma]
wondering about "normalization" method Jeanne is referring to...
16:15:04 [sajkaj]
Wilco: It would surprise me if you can get consistent results from two testing methods
16:15:10 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Do have a group working on that
16:15:44 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Notes we have test sites to test for several *ities
16:16:11 [sajkaj]
jeanne: If you have an example, we will test and more participants in that group are welcome
16:16:30 [sajkaj]
jeanne: The reason for the group is to find out whether what we're doing works
16:16:36 [sajkaj]
Wilco: Is there an example?
16:16:40 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Don't believe so
16:17:18 [sajkaj]
jeanne: So, we should probably try that for the August draft so we have a way to determine whether we have a problem here
16:17:29 [sajkaj]
Wilco: If you can make that work, I'm certainly OK with it!
16:17:53 [sajkaj]
jake: Perhaps embed part of HTML in an IOS app --
16:18:02 [sajkaj]
wilco: Still two methods for two different tech
16:18:02 [SuzanneTaylor]
+q
16:18:07 [Wilco]
ack wi
16:18:30 [sajkaj]
jake: But with hybrid versions you have to decide how to test
16:18:42 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Suggest this is another tangent -- we need to stay on agenda
16:19:00 [sajkaj]
SuzanneTaylor: Have an example -- but we can table
16:19:06 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Please send it to me
16:19:08 [KenP]
q+
16:19:15 [Wilco]
ack su
16:19:25 [jeanne]
agenda?
16:19:45 [sajkaj]
KenP: Looking at headings with levels outcome and from there to the method ...
16:20:04 [sajkaj]
KenP: two examples neither referenced techs have ability to reference a level
16:20:10 [jeanne]
q+ to answer
16:20:17 [Wilco]
ack ke
16:20:22 [Wilco]
ack je
16:20:22 [Zakim]
jeanne, you wanted to answer
16:20:25 [sajkaj]
kentPerhaps the outcome needs revision
16:20:39 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Yes, it's a typo that slipped through QA
16:21:12 [sajkaj]
jeanne: long story
16:21:26 [sajkaj]
KenP: OK
16:21:39 [sajkaj]
Wilco: Have a proposal ...
16:21:41 [Wilco]
Proposed resolution: Methods can include one or more applicability and expectation pairs
16:22:08 [sajkaj]
wilco: Hmm, maybe we haven't settled on expectations ...
16:22:33 [sajkaj]
Wilco: will mean more than one applicability per method
16:22:59 [sajkaj]
KenP: seems will be needed -- are methods always tech specific?
16:23:04 [sajkaj]
Wilco: Not necessarily
16:23:05 [Wilco]
Proposed resolution: Methods can include one or more applicability and test pairs
16:23:55 [sajkaj]
jeanne: asks meaning of "pair"
16:23:56 [SuzanneTaylor]
maybe "Methods can include one or more tests, similar to ACT tests, so can also include one or more applicability and expectation pairs"
16:24:03 [Wilco]
Proposed resolution: Methods can include one or more tests
16:24:04 [sajkaj]
Wilco: let's say multiple tests
16:24:05 [sajkaj]
+0
16:24:10 [jeanne]
+1
16:24:34 [sajkaj]
jf: suggests example of multiple tests ...
16:24:58 [JF]
+1
16:25:01 [KenP]
+1
16:25:01 [jeanne]
+1
16:25:02 [trevor]
+1
16:25:02 [SuzanneTaylor]
+1
16:25:04 [Dimitri]
+1
16:25:06 [anne_thyme]
+1
16:25:09 [jstrickland]
+1
16:25:15 [sajkaj]
JakeAbma: don't get it
16:25:21 [Shri]
+1
16:25:29 [sajkaj]
JakeAbma: always thoughts methods were like techniques
16:26:15 [sajkaj]
JakeAbma: unclear for me [lays out some detais]
16:26:42 [sajkaj]
jeanne: We're looking at something different
16:26:58 [sajkaj]
jeanne: we're looking at a more granular level
16:27:10 [sajkaj]
Wilco: actually prefer rule to test
16:27:19 [sajkaj]
JakeAbma: so what's the mapping a la lang
16:27:49 [sajkaj]
Wilco: believe it gives us the flexibility to decide that an outcome can have a lrager scope than the rule that underlies it
16:28:04 [sajkaj]
Wilco: running just one method will be sufficient
16:28:21 [sajkaj]
jake: outcome as generic method
16:28:23 [sajkaj]
wilco: yes
16:29:52 [sajkaj]
JakeAbma: mentions ultiple quantitative ambiguities
16:29:54 [Lauriat]
q+ to give an example of outcome, methods to realize it, and tests to check things, in hopes that it helps (from an old doc): https://docs.google.com/document/d/18JyGF-AK8Qgq7DPyVlDYmxoj6814rORxuCf0l0oSb7U/edit
16:30:03 [Wilco]
ack lau
16:30:03 [Zakim]
Lauriat, you wanted to give an example of outcome, methods to realize it, and tests to check things, in hopes that it helps (from an old doc):
16:30:05 [Zakim]
... https://docs.google.com/document/d/18JyGF-AK8Qgq7DPyVlDYmxoj6814rORxuCf0l0oSb7U/edit
16:30:22 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: From a working session in 2018 for lang of page
16:30:46 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: real outcome is that AT can verbalize text on screen in correct lang, etc
16:30:56 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: methods are all centered around lang of env
16:31:24 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: within each of these there are additional tests to see whether correctly accomplished
16:31:38 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: includes http header test
16:31:53 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: even though no AT looked at that in 2018
16:32:46 [Wilco]
q+
16:32:47 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: This one is cross env
16:33:02 [sajkaj]
Wilco: great example
16:33:31 [sajkaj]
Wilco: assuming AT supports http headers, then there would be two ways of meeting the outcome
16:33:41 [sajkaj]
wilco http or lang attrib
16:34:04 [sajkaj]
Wilco: would need to check both methods to see if correctly achieved
16:34:05 [Wilco]
ack wi
16:34:06 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: almost
16:34:34 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: testor could test otherwise, but we built tests to see whether method is done correctly, but not necessarily whether outcome is realized
16:35:03 [sajkaj]
Wilco: maybe bypass blocks is another example?
16:35:10 [sajkaj]
wilco: multiple ways to pass
16:35:21 [sajkaj]
wilco: like that?
16:35:29 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: not sure
16:36:12 [sajkaj]
Wilco: bypass blocks SC has several ways to check whether it's correct; each would be a method and outcome would show whether it works
16:36:43 [jeanne]
agenda?
16:36:50 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: yes, but some may also be functionally the same, so may not be exactly one to one and can have many ways
16:37:02 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: but yes, it would work
16:37:14 [jeanne]
q+ to check if we are done with this topic and can move on
16:37:42 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: some blocks might have different internals and different bypass
16:37:56 [jeanne]
q-
16:38:14 [jeanne]
zakim, take up next
16:38:14 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- Passing rules vs. failing rules -- taken up [from jeanne]
16:38:52 [sajkaj]
Wilco: think we've largely covered this ...
16:39:00 [sajkaj]
Wilco: we generally check for failures
16:39:20 [sajkaj]
Wilco: rule doesn't tell you something is met; but it does when it isn't
16:39:45 [sajkaj]
Wilco: methods don't tell you whether something has failed, but it will tell you something works
16:39:51 [sajkaj]
wilco:Correct?
16:40:04 [sajkaj]
jeanne: also have ability to identify failures
16:40:16 [sajkaj]
jeanne: so unsure impact
16:40:19 [sajkaj]
Wilco: in scoping
16:40:31 [sajkaj]
Wilco: ACT rules can have more scope than SC
16:41:07 [Lauriat]
q+ to say that methods help people understand how to meet guidance, but they do not need to comprehensively cover all possible ways to meet the guidance.
16:41:16 [sajkaj]
Wilco: e.g. can't just test for img element because there are other types of images
16:41:18 [Wilco]
ack lau
16:41:18 [Zakim]
Lauriat, you wanted to say that methods help people understand how to meet guidance, but they do not need to comprehensively cover all possible ways to meet the guidance.
16:41:46 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: while we want to document all the common ways to meet guidance, we don't need to be fully comprehensive
16:42:11 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: there are other ways not yet invented and it's OK we don't have test yet
16:42:26 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: tests are there to illustrate how to apply the methods
16:42:47 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: if outcome is met some other way, that's acceptable and important for our "future proofing"
16:43:42 [sajkaj]
shadi: not so strong an opinion here ...
16:44:15 [sajkaj]
Wilco: one challenge for ACT in that may be overcome if we allow multiple rules within a method so the method can be broken down to atomic
16:44:35 [sajkaj]
Wilco: could create gaps
16:45:20 [sajkaj]
Wilco: e.g. contrast rule checks that at least one picsel has sufficient contrast
16:45:52 [sajkaj]
Wilco: we had no answer on how many picsels need to have that contrast
16:45:54 [SuzanneTaylor]
q+
16:46:02 [Wilco]
ack su
16:46:23 [sajkaj]
SuzanneTaylor: think that's a good thing of having ACT test being written while guidelines are also being written
16:46:58 [sajkaj]
SuzanneTaylor: seems the two will help each other
16:47:03 [sajkaj]
Wilco: indeed
16:47:12 [sajkaj]
Wilco: qwill help identify gaps
16:47:31 [sajkaj]
Wilco: seems we're in general greement that things work
16:48:04 [sajkaj]
jeanne: excellent, so let's build some and see
16:48:07 [KenP]
q+
16:48:10 [Lauriat]
+1 to building & testing!
16:48:21 [Wilco]
ack ken
16:49:00 [sajkaj]
kentlooking at tab struct for relevant headings and feels like they all fit (or could be put) under Rules with ACT rules inside
16:49:17 [sajkaj]
KenP: notes we also would have resources within
16:49:28 [sajkaj]
kentperhaps could borrow our structure?
16:50:01 [jeanne]
+1 to pulling data from ACT - I like what you ahve done
16:50:21 [sajkaj]
Wilco: believe we've picked from similar sources -- converging evolution
16:50:38 [jeanne]
zakim, take up next
16:50:38 [Zakim]
agendum 6 -- Expectations vs. Test Procedures -- taken up [from jeanne]
16:50:53 [Wilco]
https://act-rules.github.io/rules/047fe0#expectations
16:50:54 [jeanne]
+1 for Expectations
16:51:01 [sajkaj]
Wilco: ACT have expectations
16:51:06 [sajkaj]
Wilco: methods have procedures
16:51:18 [sajkaj]
Wilco: almost the same, but take from different perspectives
16:51:33 [sajkaj]
Wilco: want to suggest using expectations rather than procedure
16:51:48 [sajkaj]
Wilco: expectations tell precisely what outcome needs to be
16:52:06 [sajkaj]
Wilco: we used to have test procedures and that turned into a brick wall!
16:52:28 [sajkaj]
Wilco: procedures describe what you need to do
16:52:39 [sajkaj]
wilco: expectations don't tell you how to do it
16:52:59 [sajkaj]
Wilco: manually, machine model, etc., no perscription
16:53:19 [Lauriat]
q+ to say I think we can and probably need to use both, at different levels.
16:53:23 [sajkaj]
Wilco: opinions?
16:53:25 [jeanne]
Propose moving the Test Procedure to the HowTo level and make it technology neutral.
16:53:28 [Wilco]
ack la
16:53:28 [Zakim]
Lauriat, you wanted to say I think we can and probably need to use both, at different levels.
16:53:36 [jeanne]
q+ Propose moving the Test Procedure to the HowTo level and make it technology neutral.
16:53:39 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: believe we need both but probably at different levels
16:54:03 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: testing against outcomes probably more at expectations level
16:54:06 [Wilco]
ack je
16:54:18 [Wilco]
q+
16:54:37 [sajkaj]
jeanne: agree with sl at basic level, but considering how to reorg usefully
16:55:19 [Wilco]
q-
16:55:26 [shadi]
q+
16:55:28 [sajkaj]
jeanne: we could put expectations at method level and keep a generic for newbies at the howto level; which keeps it out of the way of normative
16:55:31 [sajkaj]
wilco: like that
16:55:45 [Wilco]
+1
16:55:46 [sajkaj]
shadi: let's try it out
16:56:02 [ToddLibby_]
+1
16:56:08 [JF]
+1 Shadi
16:56:20 [sajkaj]
shadi: believe a bit of emphasis to be not only a standard but also an educational resource, and maybe more than we should take on
16:56:37 [Lauriat]
+1 to looking at not documenting the world as a part of creating a standard.
16:56:41 [sajkaj]
shadi: believe we should create the clear and unambiguous standard
16:56:48 [johnkirkwood]
+1 Shadi
16:56:54 [jeanne]
zakim, take up next
16:56:54 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, jeanne
16:57:00 [jeanne]
q?
16:57:04 [jeanne]
ack sha
16:57:05 [shadi]
q-
16:57:43 [sajkaj]
Wilco: looks for volunteers for a subgroup with some aCT and Silver folks to try things out
16:57:56 [sajkaj]
jeanne: believe current silver testing would be interested
16:58:06 [sajkaj]
wilco: looks for volunteers ??
16:58:15 [ToddLibby_]
I will volunteer
16:58:23 [Lauriat]
Not sure of time availability, but please keep me at least in the loop for now?
16:58:45 [shadi]
also want to stay in the loop
16:58:46 [jstrickland]
I need a bit more clarity on the expectation.
16:59:24 [sajkaj]
[crickets]jeansuggest existing group on silver side and add act side
16:59:32 [sajkaj]
jeanne: can check on meeting time
16:59:34 [shadi]
+1 to not spawning yet another group :-)
16:59:45 [jstrickland]
+1
17:00:08 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make meeting
17:00:08 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make meeting', jeanne. Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:00:15 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:00:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/21-wcag-act-minutes.html jeanne
17:00:35 [jeanne]
questions?
17:00:49 [ToddLibby_]
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