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13:32:15 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/05/21-epub-irc
13:32:18 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:32:18 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), ivan
13:32:34 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2021-05-21: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-epub-wg/2021May/0039.html
13:32:35 <ivan> Chair: dauwhe
13:32:35 <ivan> Date: 2021-05-21
13:32:35 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-epub-wg/2021May/0039.html
13:32:35 <ivan> Meeting: EPUB 3 Working Group Telco
13:32:35 <ivan> Regrets+ matthew
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13:58:43 <MasakazuKitahara> present+
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13:59:00 <toshiakikoike> present+
13:59:24 <ivan> present+
13:59:39 <ivan> present+ gregorio
13:59:43 <dauwhe> present+
13:59:43 <ivan> present+ dauwhe
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14:00:49 <gpellegrino> present+
14:01:25 <ivan> present+ Ken_Jones
14:01:27 <tzviya> present+
14:01:34 <ivan> present+ brady
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14:02:12 <ivan> present+ CharlesL
14:02:17 <duga> scribe+
14:02:18 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
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14:02:24 <ivan> present+ tzviya
14:02:34 <BenSchroeter> present+
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14:03:32 <dlazin> present+
14:04:23 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1323
14:04:28 <ivan> topic: @issue 1323
14:04:29 <duga> dauwhe: Validation of svg
14:04:42 <duga> ... Perhaps coming to consensus
14:04:51 <duga> ... maybe keep status quo
14:05:10 <duga> ... don't require validity now, just well formed, etc
14:05:26 <duga> ... duga mentions there is real harm to the validity check
14:05:42 <duga> ... propose informative messages when validition.nu check fails
14:06:01 <duga> ... no spec change, acknowledge reality of tools
14:06:11 <ivan> q+
14:06:14 <dauwhe> ack iva
14:06:31 <duga> ivan: Fundamentally agree
14:06:53 <duga> ... Which category corresponds to the epub check behavior?
14:07:07 <duga> dauwhe: Weird case since epubcheck is currently out of sync
14:07:14 <duga> ... with the spec.
14:07:21 <dauwhe> q?
14:07:23 <tzviya> q+
14:07:30 <dauwhe> ack tz
14:07:39 <duga> ivan: Maybe Matt knows?
14:07:57 <duga> mgarrish: epubcheck follows the spec, but not entirely bound to it
14:08:16 <duga> ... epubcheck can do what it wants, only errors and warnings need to match spec
14:08:28 <ivan> Proposed: our spec does not require SVG to be valid only well formed
14:08:33 <duga> .... Doesn't need a statement in the spec to justify it
14:08:44 <dauwhe> q?
14:08:50 <Hadrien> Hadrien has joined #epub
14:08:57 <duga> +1
14:08:58 <ivan> +!
14:08:59 <BenSchroeter> +1
14:09:00 <gpellegrino> +1
14:09:01 <mgarrish> +1
14:09:01 <dauwhe> +1
14:09:01 <ivan> +1
14:09:13 <dlazin> +1
14:09:14 <tzviya> +1
14:09:19 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
14:09:22 <toshiakikoike> +1
14:09:30 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
14:09:34 <ivan> resolved: our spec does not require SVG to be valid only well formed
14:09:55 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1456
14:10:02 <duga> dauwhe: XML base
14:10:04 <Hadrien> present+
14:10:06 <ivan> topic: @issue 1456
14:10:31 <duga> ... Have a pull request to remove a line
14:10:36 <ivan> scribejs, pr 1678
14:10:51 <duga> ... xml base is disappearing from the world at large
14:11:09 <duga> ... It isn't forbidden, but not a useful requirement to support it
14:11:22 <dauwhe> q?
14:11:37 <duga> ... Authors shouldn't do it, and we should make it so RSes shouldn't support it in the future
14:11:44 <ivan> proposed: dump xml:base from the spec
14:11:54 <duga> +1
14:12:07 <dauwhe> +1
14:12:10 <ivan> resolved: dump xml:base from the spec
14:12:11 <gpellegrino> +1
14:12:15 <toshiakikoike> +1
14:12:16 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
14:12:20 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
14:12:22 <BenSchroeter> 0
14:12:31 <dlazin> +1
14:12:33 <mgarrish> +1
14:13:13 <ivan> topic: @pr 1671
14:13:27 <ivan> scribejs, @issue 1659
14:13:40 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1659
14:13:46 <ivan> q+
14:14:21 <duga> dauwhe: Security and Privacy - trying to bring more rigor
14:14:26 <dauwhe> ack iv
14:14:47 <duga> ivan: Unique origin is something we have already decided (per epub)
14:15:07 <duga> ... Implementing that resolution hit two things
14:15:15 <duga> ... one editorial, one serious
14:15:57 <duga> ... There was a statement which said roughly "you should have a unique origin, but if you can't then do some hacks" (non-normative)
14:16:11 <duga> ... Didn't know what to do with that statement
14:16:32 <dauwhe> https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/rs/#sec-scripted-content-security
14:16:34 <duga> ... moved it to security and privacy, but there was a long thread on the request about what to do with it
14:17:37 <duga> ... General hand waving over what to do if you can't handle origins
14:18:10 <duga> ... There are several options about how to write it
14:18:26 <duga> ... but is tending towards the recommendation to dump it entirely
14:18:40 <duga> ... since it is now required to support origin
14:18:45 <dauwhe> q?
14:18:48 <duga> q+
14:18:52 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/1671
14:18:54 <tzviya> scribe+
14:19:00 <dauwhe> ack dug
14:19:20 <tzviya> duga: to add context, we did not have requirement around origin in the past
14:19:53 <dauwhe> q?
14:19:55 <tzviya> ...when we added that requirement, we needed to take out the lines that said it wasn't required. We have to revisit whether this isn't required if we take this out
14:20:09 <dauwhe> q+
14:20:14 <dauwhe> ack da
14:20:48 <duga> dauwhe: My instinct is to keep the normative requirement and get rid of the handwaving
14:21:18 <duga> ... acknowledging that the architecture of some RSes might have issues with this
14:21:29 <duga> ... Don't see the need for the spec to recognize that
14:21:46 <duga> ... I would hope there are some tests that check the spirit of this
14:22:04 <duga> ... Really don't want cross-script data sharing
14:22:22 <duga> ... The web way to do that is to use distinct origins
14:22:53 <duga> ... If a RS can pass those tests then I am happy with it, regardless of how it is actually implemented
14:23:06 <ivan> proposal: get rid of the handwaving in PR 1671 on the origin issue
14:23:14 <duga> +1
14:23:15 <ivan> +1
14:23:16 <tzviya> +1
14:23:19 <dauwhe> +1
14:23:20 <toshiakikoike> +1
14:23:23 <mgarrish> 0
14:23:24 <gpellegrino> +1
14:23:34 <BenSchroeter> +1
14:24:05 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
14:24:06 <ivan> resolved: get rid of the handwaving in PR 1671 on the origin issue
14:24:10 <duga> ivan: Then there was a more editorial question
14:24:32 <duga> ... the entire section has been enriched with more comments
14:24:33 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Bill_Kasdorf_ has joined #epub
14:24:54 <duga> ... but maybe those items, while interesting, are not related to security and privacy
14:25:27 <duga> ... comments are around keeping data, which may be correct but is not S&P related
14:25:56 <duga> ... Is there a place to move this to? eg general best practices for scripting
14:26:10 <dauwhe> q+
14:26:14 <duga> ... if yes, then we should keep and enhance, otherwise we need to drop them
14:26:48 <duga> dauwhe: I don't think we should do something like that (best practices)
14:27:00 <duga> ... These seem out of scope for the spec
14:27:12 <duga> q+
14:27:23 <dauwhe> ack du
14:27:25 <duga> ... Presumably people willl figure it our
14:27:31 <ivan> ack dauwhe
14:28:01 <tzviya> duga: All of these comments are around preserving data, but the spec does not require that
14:28:10 <tzviya> ...you don't have to use web storage, etc
14:28:39 <tzviya> ...It would be tricky to write tips and tricks for specs that are not required
14:29:08 <tzviya> This is very niche - tips for supporting optional specs on top of optional features.
14:29:43 <duga> dauwhe: Don't feel qualified to recommend implementation details to devs
14:30:06 <ivan> q+
14:30:09 <dauwhe> ack iv
14:30:11 <duga> ... Seem to be drifting away from core responsibilities of the spec, would prefer fewer words here
14:30:19 <duga> ivan: Essentially in agreement
14:30:35 <duga> ... Don't need a formal resolution, but will go ahead and remove those items
14:31:09 <Hadrien> q+
14:31:09 <ivan> topic: @issue 1675
14:31:12 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1675
14:31:27 <dauwhe> ack h
14:31:58 <duga> Hadrien: Question about previous item: have we discussed what APIs can be used?
14:32:17 <duga> ... Is there a policy or rough idea about our position?
14:32:23 <duga> q+
14:32:30 <dauwhe> ack du
14:33:39 <ivan> q+
14:33:42 <dauwhe> ack iv
14:33:54 <tzviya> duga: historically, we've viewed scripting as experimental. We've left it up to authors, publishers, systems to decide what to support. It's a strange place to allow third party to decide what to do with user data. It's a scary place to be, and I don't think we should put into spec.
14:34:13 <duga> ivan: An analogy - no one specifies which APIs must be implemented by a browser
14:34:34 <duga> ... It is rare (never?) to require specific API implementations
14:34:51 <dauwhe> q?
14:34:56 <duga> ... Just like a browser, it is up to RS authors to decide what they will implement
14:35:25 <ivan> topic: @issue 1675
14:36:07 <duga> dauwhe: Proposal to put metadata in the package file, particularly about copyright on specific manifest items
14:36:35 <duga> ... Use case is to allow scanning of documents to check copyright status
14:36:53 <duga> q+
14:36:58 <mgarrish> q+
14:36:59 <duga> q-
14:37:09 <duga> ... this concerns me
14:37:22 <tzviya> q+ to ask if we know if the concern is EU CR directive
14:37:28 <duga> ... There are various mechanisms to do that now (eg RDF)
14:37:36 <dauwhe> ack du
14:37:55 <dauwhe> ack mg
14:37:57 <duga> duga: I don't understand the use case
14:38:08 <duga> mgarrish: This seems half baked
14:38:21 <duga> ... Might want more detail before we consider it
14:39:04 <dauwhe> ack tz
14:39:04 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask if we know if the concern is EU CR directive
14:39:07 <Hadrien> q+
14:39:08 <duga> ... It does seem like this can be done now, and the recommendation doesn't really cover it all
14:39:24 <duga> tzviya: Seems like this might be about the EU copyright directive
14:39:43 <tzviya> https://scholarlykitchen.sspnet.org/2021/05/17/stm-article-sharing-framework/
14:39:53 <duga> ... Might be about the scholarly world where you can detect if something is shareable
14:40:19 <duga> ... Linked info above is still be discussed internationally
14:40:27 <ivan> q+
14:40:31 <dauwhe> ack Ha
14:40:54 <duga> Hadrien: I think in general when we get these requests, we should point out the current extensibility
14:41:11 <duga> ... If some group comes up with a useful extension, then we can consider it
14:41:31 <duga> ... we shouldn't tackle these things ourselves
14:41:31 <dauwhe> ack iv
14:41:35 <ivan> q-
14:41:42 <ivan> proposed: Close issue 1675 without further steps
14:41:48 <BenSchroeter> +1
14:41:52 <duga> dauwhe: We should close the issue, nothing to see here
14:42:00 <dauwhe> +1
14:42:04 <Bill_Kasdorf_> +1
14:42:06 <duga> +1
14:42:06 <ivan> +1
14:42:11 <tzviya> +1
14:42:19 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
14:42:26 <dauwhe> q?
14:42:26 <mgarrish> +1
14:42:39 <ivan> resolved: Close issue 1675 without further steps
14:42:56 <duga> dauwhe: That was all our issues
14:42:58 <ivan> topic: aob
14:43:04 <mgarrish> q+
14:43:17 <duga> ... Remember there is a face to face coming up
14:43:27 <dauwhe> ack mg
14:43:37 <duga> ... If you want to talk about something ask the chairs, Ivan, or add the f2f label to the topic
14:43:38 <tzviya> q+ to talk about community videos
14:43:50 <gpellegrino> +1!
14:43:51 <duga> mgarrish: What about republishing? Do we have a formal thumbs up?
14:43:55 <CharlesL> +1 updated docs!
14:44:13 <ivan> proposal: republish all specs
14:44:16 <dauwhe> +1
14:44:17 <BenSchroeter> +1
14:44:18 <duga> +1
14:44:19 <tzviya> +1
14:44:19 <ivan> +1
14:44:23 <avneeshsingh> present++1
14:44:24 <mgarrish> +1
14:44:29 <Bill_Kasdorf_> +1
14:44:32 <ivan> resolved: republish all specs
14:44:55 <dauwhe> acktz
14:44:56 <ivan> Potential agenda for f2f: https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Agenda%2B+F2F%22
14:44:58 <dauwhe> ack tz
14:44:59 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to talk about community videos
14:45:10 <tzviya> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Jx5VvkMTQ4EL0Xfb3pDMDUiccq79mmIPHetSRfbziFM/edit?usp=sharing
14:45:35 <duga> tzviya: There has been talk about creating short videos to share with the larger publishing community
14:45:41 <duga> ... instead of a massive webinar
14:45:57 <duga> ... If you have ideas for videos let us know
14:46:07 <duga> ... will start creating videos over the summer
14:46:22 <duga> ... if your name is on this and you don't want to do it, let us know
14:46:29 <dauwhe> q?
14:46:37 <duga> ... If you do want to do one, just add your name to the linked sheet
14:47:07 <duga> dauwhe: AOB?
14:47:32 <duga> ... Thanks all! You can all go home
14:47:57 <CharlesL> CharlesL has left #epub
14:48:05 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:48:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/21-epub-minutes.html ivan
14:48:48 <ivan> zakimn, end meeting
14:49:04 <ivan> zakim, end meeting
14:49:04 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been MasakazuKitahara, toshiakikoike, ivan, gregorio, dauwhe, avneeshsingh, gpellegrino, Ken_Jones, tzviya, brady, billk, charles, duga,
14:49:07 <Zakim> ... CharlesL, Bill_Kasdorf, BenSchroeter, dlazin, !, Hadrien, +1
14:49:07 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:49:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/21-epub-minutes.html Zakim
14:49:09 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, ivan; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
14:49:14 <Zakim> Zakim has left #epub
14:49:20 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
14:49:20 <RRSAgent> I see no action items