18:02:53 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-at
18:02:53 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/05/20-aria-at-irc
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18:03:12 <Matt_King> zakim, clear agenda
18:03:12 <Zakim> agenda cleared
18:03:21 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make log public
18:03:49 <Matt_King> MEETING: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group and AP Dev Sprint Review
18:04:07 <Matt_King> CHAIRS: Seth/James
18:04:15 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
18:04:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/20-aria-at-minutes.html Matt_King
18:04:48 <Matt_King> present+
18:04:55 <s3ththompson> present+
18:05:00 <Matt_King> scribe: Matt_King
18:05:16 <Matt_King> TOPIC: Sprint 6 review
18:05:20 <jesdaigle> jesdaigle has joined #aria-at
18:05:33 <jesdaigle> +present
18:05:56 <Rich_Noah> present+
18:06:22 <Matt_King> Seth: sprint 6 completes in a week on May 28
18:06:32 <Matt_King> sprint 7 is may  31 to june 11
18:07:21 <Matt_King> Added graphQL and started work on control layer
18:07:34 <Matt_King> that will have more of the business logic than prev version
18:08:02 <Matt_King> Data model has more flexible set of entities to accommodate working mode changes.
18:08:45 <Matt_King> Working on test renderer to fix outstanding issues around command sequences and reset button behavior.
18:08:59 <Matt_King> Z  hasdraft PR open, not quite ready for review.
18:09:15 <Matt_King> Cleans up the test harness and documents the methods iwth jsdoc
18:10:01 <Matt_King> Should have sig progress by end of sprint 6, but may not be complete depending on our new task we discussed last week related to generated files.
18:10:23 <Matt_King> Generated file work is higher pri and might push out the renderer.
18:10:48 <Matt_King> James: when to talk about the generated file issue with merge conflicts.
18:11:27 <Matt_King> Seth: Z has investigated, we can talk about it during this hour if you like.
18:12:04 <Matt_King> mk: better for us to talk about the details of that in this meeting.
18:12:30 <Matt_King> seth: just opened issue today related to roles in the app
18:12:54 <Matt_King> james: we can put that first on the agenda in the cg meeting next hour
18:13:13 <Matt_King> TOPIC: Sprint 7 plan
18:13:38 <Matt_King> Seth: highest pri item will be automation work flow and removing generated tests.
18:13:47 <Matt_King> close to 10 days of work.
18:14:01 <Matt_King> so will start in sprint 6 and finish in sprint 7
18:14:18 <Matt_King> hopefully can eleminate the biggest merge conflict issues sooner than end of sprint 7.
18:14:35 <Matt_King> Plan to use netifly to provide test preview.
18:15:05 <Matt_King> Next on the list is work around aria-at app roles.
18:15:31 <Matt_King> Need some change to how we manage roles in github teams.
18:15:56 <Matt_King> Adding everyone to w3c org in github adds alot of overhead.
18:16:06 <Matt_King> Not sure we want that overhead or that it is appropriate.
18:16:31 <Matt_King> Next is work to update the test queue page.
18:17:10 <Matt_King> Allow test queue to be managed as individual items; add/remove individual rows.
18:17:36 <Matt_King> Right now every plan in the queue needs o be on the same version, which doesn't scale.
18:17:54 <Matt_King> New queue would decouple the queue from the github repo version/commit.
18:18:17 <Matt_King> Might need to talk about having 2 version of same plan in queue at the same time.
18:19:36 <Matt_King> mk: want to talk about how we render versions of tests.
18:19:45 <Matt_King> seth: added a version field to the data model
18:20:45 <Matt_King> James: could have it be free form field
18:20:57 <Matt_King> rather than a number or semantic version.
18:22:30 <Matt_King> mk: would be nice to have a number, date, and optional name/description for the version
18:24:05 <Matt_King> james: semantic versioning could help with small changes like typo fixes.
18:25:27 <Matt_King> seth: as soon as we rely on the version number being human generated, we need some checks to make  sure the numbers are updated when they should be
18:26:52 <Matt_King> seth: in wpt.fyi, any time a test is changed, it needs to be re-run to ensure it doesn't make material changes
18:27:16 <Matt_King> If we use semantic versioning, should it be tied to when a test needs to be re-run
18:28:07 <Matt_King> james: any change, even minor, needs to be signed off. We don't necessarily want to make it go all the way back to draft just for a typo fix.
18:36:51 <Matt_King> james: right now we don't have a way to name a test plan
18:36:58 <Matt_King> it comes from a directory
18:37:28 <Matt_King> This should be a test plan level concern
18:37:40 <Matt_King> We coudl treat a test plan like a package
18:38:39 <Matt_King> seth: It would be good in the future if the app had more of a generica pproach to importing tests
18:38:47 <Matt_King> almost like a webhook
18:39:12 <Matt_King> So, we could support multiple sources and the changes in the repo could trigger the import.
18:39:25 <Matt_King> james: there's iopportunity to do it bit by bit.
18:39:45 <Matt_King> Coudl start with splitting up references.csv
18:40:27 <Matt_King> We could also moving the naming of plans out of support.json.
18:42:29 <Matt_King> seth: much of references.csv is apg specific. Can we make that more generic.
18:42:51 <Matt_King> or, if we support multiple sources, could each source have its own metadata
18:43:32 <Matt_King> james: I think it should be example driven
18:44:34 <Matt_King> let's not try to be excessively generic
18:44:55 <Matt_King> seth: there are 2 important links for APG, design pattern and example
18:46:05 <Matt_King> seth: let's start an issue and come up with a package description that describes a test plan package with an eye on supporting sources beyond APG.
18:46:20 <Matt_King> James: keep in mind all the shared resources
18:49:15 <Matt_King> TOPIC: Plan for automated work flow and generated test files
18:49:35 <Matt_King> Seth: We discussed how merge conflicts are acute issue.
18:49:52 <Matt_King> One problem is that we have generated files in repo and CLI has verbose logging.
18:51:02 <Matt_King> Proposal is to first put verbose logging behind a flag and have a more clear summary of errors at the end
18:51:23 <Matt_King> james: as long as it is at the end, that is super helpful.
18:51:37 <Matt_King> seth: that's quick fix to one problem.
18:52:30 <Matt_King> Seth: next is to add a validate flag that doesn't generate any output
18:53:01 <Matt_King> z: there is existing script that generate tests for a single direcory
18:53:16 <Matt_King> james: there is no npm equivalent for that
18:54:03 <Matt_King> seth: next is to turn on netifly deploy previews
18:54:27 <Matt_King> Looked at other providers, but netifly is good balance of simplicity and fexibility
18:54:32 <Matt_King> can work with branches
18:54:42 <Matt_King> it is fast and keep the html files around.
18:54:59 <Matt_King> they also partner with OS projects
18:55:23 <Matt_King> Turning this on would give every PR a link that shows what the test would look like
18:56:52 <Matt_King> seth: the app is loading files through github
18:57:17 <Matt_King> In the new model, we would treat netlifly as a build bot
19:04:42 <Matt_King> James: if netlify is short term solution, can we make sure the w3.org site is proxied to netlify somehow
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19:05:15 <Matt_King> z: think we can do that. today we use rawgit proxy so could change over
19:05:47 <Matt_King> James: long term, we may not want to reply on outside source for rendered assets
19:06:27 <Matt_King> seth: once weremove generated files from repo and serve from netlify, we could start building ability to render directly from the json
19:06:54 <Matt_King> james: timeline?
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19:07:24 <Matt_King> z: Can get CLI work done quickly
19:08:06 <Matt_King> Part of this is changing directory structure for some of the files
19:08:53 <Matt_King> We need an account with netlify; free service is single user
19:09:17 <Matt_King> Think that we can use their OS project support policy.
19:09:30 <Matt_King> seth: I'll kick that aspect off with netlify
19:09:58 <Matt_King> z: Netlify also has a cli tool that lets us give it a directory
19:10:23 <jongund> present+ jongund
19:11:01 <Matt_King> james: as long as pr is free of generated resources, we are good.
19:11:17 <Matt_King> seth: Yap, and this is top priority due to impact on your work.
19:11:43 <Matt_King> TOPIC: Transition to Community Group Agenda
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19:11:58 <s3ththompson> scribe: s3ththompson
19:12:01 <alflennik> present+
19:12:31 <s3ththompson> TOPIC: How should we manage ARIA-AT roles?
19:12:48 <s3ththompson> https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/436
19:13:27 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
19:13:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/20-aria-at-minutes.html Matt_King
19:13:30 <s3ththompson> james: currently, ARIA-AT App manages roles via GitHub teams under w3c org
19:14:59 <s3ththompson> james: due to how GitHub teams work, ppl need to be added to w3c org. there is a high overhead to adding testers to the w3c org
19:15:48 <s3ththompson> james: a few options from seth: 1) create GitHub org for aria-at? 2) create allowlist somewhere else? 3) keep roles under w3c teams, but only for admins
19:25:54 <michael_fairchild> present+
19:35:48 <s3ththompson> matt: can we keep admins on github w3c team and then add an in-app admin button to authenticate testers?
19:36:23 <s3ththompson> matt: we don't want to have a free-for-all of anyone submitting results
19:37:00 <s3ththompson> seth: in terms of lowering barriers to entry, is it really that bad if someone submits results that we later have to delte
19:37:32 <s3ththompson> james: it's noise that contributes to admin overhead. results take training to record correctly. even pilot test had lots of issues to work through and those contributors were trained and engaged
19:39:04 <s3ththompson> jes: from a bocoup perspective, we really want to make it easier for people outside this org to get involved. these seems like a crucial question as we talk about wanting greater community support for aria-at
19:40:07 <s3ththompson> matt: we're really quite committed to training tests and keeping that a careful, skilled process for only certain people. if we need to we can even hire and pay people to submit test results
19:40:37 <s3ththompson> matt: for short term, let's keep admin roles under w3c teams and add allowlist to repo
19:41:36 <s3ththompson> james: admins can add people or people can open their own pull request
19:41:46 <s3ththompson> seth: long term, might still consider in-app, better ux version
19:41:55 <s3ththompson> matt and james: probably not the highest priority right now
19:42:12 <s3ththompson> TOPIC: Compositional Test Writing
19:42:36 <s3ththompson> https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/388
19:48:22 <s3ththompson> matt: can we start with a simple toolbar example?
19:48:54 <s3ththompson> james: what is the value of asking the tester to toggle a toggle button inside a toolbar?
19:50:05 <s3ththompson> matt: we wouldn't test the functionality of everything in the toolbar, just navigating into and out of a toolbar and navigating between elements within in
19:50:07 <s3ththompson> *it
19:50:44 <s3ththompson> james: so we could create a boilerplate that we modify for each element
19:51:11 <s3ththompson> matt: we do need to check if you're on a radio button inside a toolbar that it still tells you you're within a toolbar
19:51:24 <s3ththompson> jongund: the code for this hasn't been updated
19:51:56 <s3ththompson> james: jongund, if you have another example other than toolbar, how much code do you reuse for something like a radio button inside
19:52:40 <s3ththompson> jongund: we certainly borrowed code from other places to bring into the toolbar. i don't think it's a ton of work, but it's rearranging code, etc. there are probably other efficiencies to look at. is that a priority?
19:53:00 <s3ththompson> matt: another part of your answer, james is that we don't create dependencies between directories?
19:53:08 <s3ththompson> james: but for something like grid, there are shared resources
19:53:27 <s3ththompson> matt: oh yeah, there's an import from util in there. but we don't link between examples
19:56:16 <s3ththompson> matt: the things that we would *not* put in the apg b/c they're too basic, would be e.g. a toolbar with three buttons
19:57:05 <s3ththompson> matt: another example would be an oversimplified grid if we needed to test a 2x2 or 3x3 grid... or maybe that's not a great example since the apg already has some simple grids
19:58:43 <s3ththompson> james: for test plan, can we import the tests for grouping? so we would almost have checkbox and grouping separated... so that you could reuse some aspects of them
19:59:55 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
19:59:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/20-aria-at-minutes.html Matt_King