17:58:34 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #openui
17:58:34 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/05/13-openui-irc
17:58:49 <gregwhitworth> Zakim, start meeting
17:58:49 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:58:51 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), gregwhitworth
17:58:57 <gregwhitworth> meeting: Open UI Telecon
17:59:05 <gregwhitworth> chair: Greg Whitworth
17:59:09 <gregwhitworth> present+
18:00:37 <chrisholt_> chrisholt_ has joined #openui
18:00:49 <miriam> present+
18:00:51 <chrisholt_> present+
18:01:36 <davatron5000> davatron5000 has joined #openui
18:01:39 <gregwhitworth> Topic: Let's discuss popup states and events (@smaug----)
18:01:47 <stephstimac> stephstimac has joined #openui
18:01:50 <stephstimac> present+
18:01:54 <una> una has joined #openui
18:02:03 <davatron5000> present+
18:02:05 <una> scribenick una
18:02:07 <hdv> present+
18:02:08 <una> present+
18:02:24 <flackr> flackr has joined #openui
18:02:30 <flackr> present+
18:02:42 <una> ScribeNick: una
18:03:05 <una> https://github.com/openui/open-ui/issues/342
18:03:21 <melanierichards> present+
18:03:22 <gregwhitworth> q?
18:03:24 <una> melanierichards: this issue came out of an HTML triage meeting
18:03:59 <una> melanierichards: basically we shared the idea with some of the HTML editors, and theres interest in seeing how the proposal does/doesnt aline w/Firefox's Zule? popup elements
18:04:34 <una> melanierichards: proposed events here are transitional events (showing, shown, hiding, hidden)
18:04:46 <una> melanierichards: emmited at begining and end of showing and hiding operation
18:05:05 <una> melanierichards: is this something we feel we need?
18:05:47 <una> gregwhitworth: im supportive of it
18:05:53 <una> gregwhitworth: the general concept of havign this events
18:06:00 <chrisholt_> +1 for having events
18:06:13 <hdv> +1 to have these events
18:06:21 <davatron5000> I think it's great. I would love to have before/after events for each show and hide.
18:06:29 <gregwhitworth> una: it helps to have these, they're useful. I want to add that in CSS they're asking for more of these types of events
18:06:38 <gregwhitworth> una: such as :stuck for sticky
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18:07:30 <una> melanierichards: I like the idea, should we support this is one resolution, and then an actual name for these is a different resolution
18:08:26 <una> flackr: the most concerning part to me is the exact text of when these events ar fired
18:08:43 <una> flackr: when does display: none get applied, i want to know the exact timing
18:08:52 <una> flackr: presumably they cant do anything to stop it when its opening
18:09:31 <una> melanierichards: is there an order of operations here, can resolve on it existing/names and then someone can write up spec text, RE: order and can review it as a PR
18:09:43 <una> gregwhitworth: we have a resolution on "this thing should exist"
18:10:00 <una> gregwhitworth: we can even use the Zule? implementation as a path forward
18:10:39 <una> Proposed Resolution: Events should be emitted when show or hide state changes. Event timing to be defined.
18:11:59 <una> flackr: we have events in input like beforeShow beforeHide
18:13:27 <una> Proposed Resolution: Events should be emitted when show or hide state changes (i.e. beforeShow, show, beforeHide, hide). Event timing and names to be defined.
18:13:40 <davatron5000> fwiw, Vue has put a lot of thought into this and has a lot of compelling demos https://vuejs.org/v2/guide/transitions.html
18:13:43 <una> Resolved: Events should be emitted when show or hide state changes (i.e. beforeShow, show, beforeHide, hide). Event timing and names to be defined.
18:14:45 <una> davatron5000: the Vue link above shows 6 states
18:14:59 <gregwhitworth> Topic: [Popup] Supporting transitions and animations on open and dismiss
18:15:13 <gregwhitworth> https://github.com/openui/open-ui/issues/335
18:15:27 <gregwhitworth> q?
18:15:42 <una> flackr: currently the way Popup works is that the style is all applied at once when you show popup, you dont have an opportunity to initiate transitions
18:16:03 <una> flackr: you can do an intro animation but can't do an outtro because the element is display: none immediately
18:16:41 <una> flackr: my proposal here is a state before the popup is completely visible - it has a computed style (beforeTransition style state), after which we apply the :open pseudo class, enabling you to do a transition on open
18:16:53 <una> flackr: you can do the opposite on exit by removing :open pseudo class
18:17:06 <gregwhitworth> q+ for a meta discussion about engaging with CSSWG
18:17:09 <una> flackr: the tricky thing is on popup where you have to wait a reasonable ammt of time for this to finish
18:17:15 <una> flackr: see mockup in attached issue
18:17:33 <una> https://jsbin.com/piqebiw/edit?css,js,output
18:18:40 <una> demo uses 'visible' class add/remove, spec would be :open pseudo class instead
18:18:52 <una> flackr: proposal is to have this intermediate pseudo state
18:19:27 <melanierichards> q+
18:19:32 <gregwhitworth> una: I think making this declarative is going to be very useful for developers
18:19:46 <gregwhitworth> ack melanierichards
18:20:06 <una> melanierichards: i was going to bring up: detecting that there's an animation running, Mason might have thoughts on this
18:20:27 <una> melanierichards: we should have some kind of time limit on the finish operation, can abuse the user to never let it close
18:20:46 <gregwhitworth> una: to respond to that
18:21:01 <gregwhitworth> una: if someone was going to abuse the popup they could just not put a close button on it
18:21:11 <gregwhitworth> una: I don't think the transition timing is where to do that
18:21:17 <gregwhitworth> una: popup does have light dismiss
18:21:24 <gregwhitworth> s/una/melanierichards
18:21:40 <una> melanierichards: user should be able to close it w/lightdismiss
18:21:50 <una> flackr: the developer can always trap the user if they want
18:22:45 <una> gregwhitworth: there's an assumption that everyone that puts the content on their site is aware of it, might be a 3P
18:23:04 <una> gregwhitworth: but are there technically ways around this anyway
18:23:15 <una> gregwhitworth: the developer isnt always in control of everything running on the page
18:23:31 <una> flackr: i think it'll be hard to set a canonical time limit (dev-expectation-wise)
18:23:42 <gregwhitworth> q+
18:23:51 <gregwhitworth> una: there isn't a pattern on the web currently for that
18:24:24 <una> gregwhitworth: this may be one of those things that need interop if we go with this route
18:24:37 <gregwhitworth> ack gregwhitworth
18:24:37 <Zakim> gregwhitworth, you wanted to discuss a meta discussion about engaging with CSSWG and to
18:25:13 <gregwhitworth> una: what if you made a CSS game and you had some time to play the game, there may be some real world scenarios. I note both are edge cases
18:25:41 <una> melanierichards: if we were going to impose a limit, it would have to be in spec text, limit could be generous to protect against abuse but its unlikely you'll run into it for a transition
18:27:57 <flackr> Proposed resolution: popups have an intermediate state where they are display: block but not yet :open which they transition to when showing / hiding. On hiding, the UA will wait for ongoing animations before setting display: none.
18:29:00 <gregwhitworth> gregwhitworth: any objections?
18:29:22 <gregwhitworth> una: if they're display block are they visible?
18:29:52 <gregwhitworth> flackr: they don't have the open pseudo - this is the same as triggering a transition on something
18:30:07 <una> Resolved: popups have an intermediate state where they are display: block but not yet :open which they transition to when showing / hiding. On hiding, the UA will wait for ongoing animations before setting display: none.
18:32:29 <una> gregwhitworth: Additional agenda item: Switch Element Graduation
18:32:39 <una> https://github.com/openui/open-ui/issues/338
18:33:35 <una> gregwhitworth: potentially new pseudo element or element down the road -- should checkbox and switch be two seperate things? You *can* style a checkbox as a switch -- behaviorally they are similar
18:33:40 <una> q+
18:33:52 <una> gregwhitworth: behaviors and anatomies might be different
18:34:11 <una> chrisholt_: theres similarities in behavior on a lot of things on the web but they present differently on the web
18:34:24 <una> chrisholt_: convoluting  them will only create problems
18:34:33 <una> bret little: the actual blueprint of a switch will be different
18:34:47 <una> bret little: primary label, what switch is for, secondary label is the state of the switch
18:34:49 <davatron5000> +1 to graduate, mostly because I never want to ever read a "how to make a toggle with CSS checkboxes" article ever again.
18:36:05 <una> una: I think these are 2 different components, switch is binary - the labeling would be different than if you tried to create one out of radio buttons or checkboxes
18:36:15 <una> gregwhitworth: per iOS guidelines, they're the same as checkboxes
18:36:31 <una> una: interesting that we keep relating to checkboxes when they're more like radios
18:36:44 <una> link from iOS guidance https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guidelines/macos/buttons/switches/
18:37:12 <una> Proposed Resolution: Open-UI should have a separate Switch blueprint proposal
18:37:16 <una> una: +1
18:37:26 <una> Resolved: Open-UI should have a separate Switch blueprint proposal
18:38:32 <gregwhitworth> Zakim, end meeting
18:38:32 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been gregwhitworth, miriam, chrisholt_, stephstimac, davatron, hdv, una, flackr, melanierichards
18:38:34 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:38:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/13-openui-minutes.html Zakim
18:38:37 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, gregwhitworth; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
18:38:41 <Zakim> Zakim has left #openui
18:54:04 <gregwhitworth> RRSAgent, please leave
18:54:04 <RRSAgent> I see no action items