13:59:28 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wot-td
13:59:28 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/05/12-wot-td-irc
13:59:34 <kaz> meeting: WoT-TD - TD-TF
13:59:40 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura
13:59:53 <mjk> mjk has joined #wot-td
14:00:33 <kaz> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#May_12.2C_2021
14:02:38 <kaz> present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi, Ege_Korkan, Sebastian_Kaebisch
14:06:14 <cris> cris has joined #wot-td
14:06:45 <Mizushima> Mizushima has joined #wot-td
14:07:10 <sebastian> sebastian has joined #wot-td
14:09:26 <dape> dape has joined #wot-td
14:10:01 <kaz> present+ Daniel_Peintner
14:10:09 <kaz> scribenick: dape
14:11:10 <dape> TOPIC: Preliminaries
14:11:17 <kaz> present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima
14:12:53 <dape> SUBTOPIC: Draft minutes approval
14:13:04 <dape> -> https://www.w3.org/2021/05/05-wot-td-minutes.html
14:13:11 <kaz> s/html/html May-5/
14:14:09 <dape> SK: tackled many PRs
14:14:56 <dape> ... security, validation, icon links
14:15:03 <dape> ... profile term
14:15:47 <ryuichi> ryuichi has joined #wot-td
14:15:49 <kaz> present+ Ryuichi_Matsukura
14:17:06 <dape> ... new terms for dataSchema
14:18:57 <dape> ... updates in terminology section
14:19:38 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
14:19:40 <dape> ... introduce ThingModel namespace
14:19:42 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:19:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:20:04 <dape> ... canonicalization improvements
14:20:51 <dape> SK: Call for working draft review
14:21:00 <kaz> present+ Michael_Koster
14:21:03 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:21:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:21:17 <dape> SK: any objections?
14:21:33 <dape> <all>: none -> minutes approved
14:21:52 <dape> SUBTOPIC: next TD meeting 1h later
14:22:01 <dape> SK: Kaz has conflict
14:22:29 <dape> ... start 1 hour later and have a 1 hour call
14:22:48 <dape> TOPIC: Publication plans
14:23:02 <dape> SK: Started call for review
14:23:15 <dape> ... collect issues in https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1127
14:23:34 <dape> SK: got already feedback
14:23:44 <kaz> q+
14:23:49 <dape> ... e.g., KotisK about trust and security
14:23:58 <dape> ... should check with McCool
14:24:10 <dape> ... got comments about broken links
14:24:30 <dape> ... we do not use  final namespaces yet
14:24:53 <kaz> i/Started/subtopic: Issue 1127/
14:25:10 <dape> ... for previous drafts we had an intermediary page
14:25:44 <kaz> i|Started|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1127 Issue 1127 - Publish updated WD for Thing Description 1.1|
14:25:54 <dape> SK: can add not making clear that namespaces are not final
14:26:05 <dape> s/can add not/can add note
14:26:12 <dape> SK: any opinion?
14:26:23 <dape> CA: Note seems a good idea to me
14:26:47 <dape> ... temporary URLs sound good too
14:27:33 <kaz> q?
14:27:41 <dape> SK: in previous drafts we used "working" namespaces
14:28:01 <dape> .... changed to final URL in CR phase
14:28:56 <dape> Kaz: 2 comments
14:29:15 <dape> ... 1. KotisK is official invited expert, we can invite him
14:30:12 <dape> ... 2. w.r.t. namespace ????
14:32:05 <dape> SK: have to leave for 10 minutes....
14:32:14 <kaz> s/ ????/, if we really need it, we can allocate an additional namespace for TM, but the bigger question is about whether we really want to include the TM feature as a normative feature within the CR version of the TD spec./
14:32:19 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Propose+closing%22
14:32:36 <dape> TOPIC: Propose closing issues
14:33:03 <kaz> i/https/[ Kaz proposes we talk about the other topics during Sebastian's absence. ]
14:33:11 <dape> SUBTOPIC: Issue 841
14:33:24 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/841
14:33:26 <kaz> s/TOPIC: Propose closing issues//
14:33:33 <dape> EK: Any objections to close?
14:33:42 <kaz> i/%22/TOPIC: Propose closing issues/
14:33:47 <dape> -> none -> proceed with closing
14:33:50 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:33:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:33:57 <dape> SUBTOPIC: Issue 897
14:34:09 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/897
14:34:33 <dape> EK: placeholders are available
14:35:07 <dape> ... propose to close
14:35:13 <kaz> s/841/841 Issue 841 - Add "multipleOf" term to NumberSchema and IntegerSchema/
14:35:19 <dape> -> no objections -> proceed with closing
14:35:34 <kaz> s/897/897 Issue 897 - TDT shall allow to define placeholders/
14:35:38 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:35:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:35:50 <kaz> Chair: Sebastian/Ege
14:35:51 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:35:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:35:53 <dape> SUBTOPIC: Issue 1068
14:35:58 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1068
14:36:40 <kaz> s/1068/1068 Issue 1068 - uriVariables needs to be more limited/
14:37:23 <dape> EK: discussion with Cristiano in issue
14:37:38 <dape> CA: somewhat related
14:37:49 <dape> EK: Parts are in the spec
14:38:01 <dape> ... think should be note instead of normal text
14:38:54 <dape> DP: +1
14:39:27 <dape> CA: Suggest to close original  issue and create another issues
14:39:39 <dape> s/create another issues/create another issue
14:40:05 <dape> EK: makes sense
14:41:24 <dape> .. created issue 1138
14:41:57 <dape> -> no objections to close original issue -> proceed with closing
14:42:14 <dape> SUBTOPIC: Issue 957
14:42:26 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/957
14:43:10 <kaz> i|no objections|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1138 Issue 1138 - Making the uriVariables recommendation paragraph an editor's note/
14:43:47 <kaz> q+
14:45:36 <dape> Kaz: w.r.t. previous issue, note would mean not normative anymore
14:45:57 <dape> ... if we don't need this sentence we can use ed. note
14:46:09 <dape> EK: I think it is a not for *new* systems..
14:46:30 <dape> ... kind of a recommendation
14:47:26 <dape> s/is a not/is a note
14:47:30 <kaz> s/issue, /issue 1138, /
14:50:02 <dape> Kaz: if the text is included in this section (normative sections) ... and it does not include MUST, SHOULD etc
14:50:14 <dape> ... not sure if we need to convert it to note
14:50:38 <dape> EK: It is about visibility ... since it is a recommendation
14:51:01 <dape> Kaz: Nicer to have a specific section how to use uriVariables
14:52:05 <dape> ... subsubsection etc
14:52:26 <dape> EK: Seems unnecessary to me
14:53:36 <dape> Kaz: contentType might need a dedicated section also
14:53:39 <dape> EK: Makes sense
14:54:09 <dape> CA: +1
14:54:22 <dape> EK: makes linking easier also
14:55:52 <dape> ... will create issue
14:56:15 <dape> EK: Closing issue 957
14:56:48 <kaz> i|Closing|subtopic: Issue 957|
14:57:10 <kaz> i|Closing|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/957 Issue 957 - Unsubscribing and unobserving are not in default values|
14:57:28 <dape> TOPIC:  Issues
14:57:59 <dape> SUBTOPIC: Which is better to actuate devices, invoking ACTION or writing PROPERTY? #1020
14:58:05 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1020
14:58:12 <kaz> s|SUBTOPIC: Issue 957||
14:58:54 <dape> SK: MatsukuraSan asks when to use Action and/or Property
14:58:56 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:58:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:59:28 <dape> RM: original idea is very simple
14:59:35 <kaz> s|issues/1020|issues/1020 Issue 1020 - Which is better to actuate devices, invoking ACTION or writing PROPERTY?|
14:59:46 <dape> ... table shows standards
14:59:52 <dape> ... all standards define property
14:59:56 <dape> ... some define actions
15:00:13 <dape> ... property defined to actuate physical things
15:00:40 <dape> ... EchonetLite just defines properties
15:01:14 <dape> ... natural to map EchonetLite properties to WoT properties
15:01:45 <dape> ... TD is not crystal clear
15:01:49 <kaz> => https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2021-03-online-f2f/2021-03-15-ECHONET-Lite-WebAPI-ECHONET-Consortium.pdf Matsuda-san's slides on ECHONET Lit Web API
15:01:58 <dape> ... suggest to improve the situation
15:02:14 <kaz> q+
15:02:22 <dape> SK: Make clear when to use actions?
15:02:32 <dape> ... most use-cases can use properties
15:03:47 <dape> CA: Do we have a concrete ECHONET example that maps to action?
15:04:18 <dape> Kaz: new approaches about action/history handling
15:04:33 <dape> .. page 16 in PDF
15:05:26 <dape> ... wait for use-case description ?
15:05:49 <dape> CA: there are plans to add actions?
15:06:06 <dape> Kaz: I believe actions is already in work
15:06:13 <McCool> McCool has joined #wot-td
15:06:25 <dape> .. should ask for latest status from ECHONET people
15:06:35 <dape> RM: action in ECHONET is very special
15:06:54 <dape> ... property is used almost everwhere
15:07:36 <dape> ... action in ECHONET is a very special case
15:09:29 <dape> SK: Would be good to understand why the mapping is not working smoothly
15:09:48 <dape> ... ECHONET participants in PlugFest would be very good
15:10:33 <kaz> s/in work/in work based on Matsuda-san's presentation during the vF2F in March/
15:10:36 <dape> ... suggest to continue discussion in issue
15:11:07 <dape> ... RM, may I ask you to provide a statement about difference between property and action
15:11:09 <dape> RM: Sure
15:11:30 <kaz> s/should ask for latest status from ECHONET people/should ask ECOHNET as a whole about their latest status and their expected direction again/
15:11:48 <dape> CA: similar discussion. Not clear whether write operation returns value
15:11:52 <dape> ... not clear in TD spec
15:12:14 <dape> ... we should try to be more clear
15:12:21 <kaz> s/ECOHNET/ECHONET/
15:12:33 <mjk> q?
15:12:50 <kaz> ack k
15:12:57 <cris> good question daniel :)
15:13:06 <kaz> present+ Michael McCool
15:13:10 <dape> DP: writing property in ECHONET, does it return a value
15:13:22 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:13:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:14:06 <kaz> s/=>/->/
15:14:06 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:14:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:14:17 <dape> RM: I think just success or failure
15:14:35 <kaz> present+ Michael_McCool
15:14:39 <dape> ... will check though
15:14:52 <kaz> present- Michael McCool
15:14:54 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:14:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:16:08 <dape> SK: Discussion in profile about whether PUT returns a value also
15:16:38 <dape> .. page 20 in PDF shows that payload echoes the value
15:16:57 <dape> Kaz: w.r.t. action, see page 21
15:18:03 <dape> ... suggest to check latest status with ECHONET
15:18:31 <cris> q+
15:19:18 <dape> SK: will mention ECHONET procedure in wot-profile PR#77
15:20:14 <dape> Kaz: we need use-case and actual description, also right?
15:20:44 <dape> ... with ECHONET people
15:21:04 <dape> s/with ECHONET people/from ECHONET people
15:22:14 <mjk> The OCF API CoAP binding for update also returns the value
15:22:25 <dape> SK: MatsukuraSan can you talk with ECHONET people
15:22:28 <dape> RM: will do
15:22:38 <dape> q?
15:22:53 <dape> MK: OCF API CoAP binding for update also returns the value
15:23:52 <dape> ... use POST (instead of PUT) .. because of partial updates
15:24:07 <Ege> brb
15:24:44 <dape> CA: is this a profile issue or is this a broader issue?
15:24:50 <kaz> s/with ECHONET people/given Matsuda-san as the official liaison contact gave the description on the latest status of the ECHONET Lite Web API based on his slides and clarified he would continue to be the liaison contact, probably we should ask Matsukura-san to work with Matsuda-san to provide further clarification about their latest status and their preferred direction./
15:25:12 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:25:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:25:21 <dape> ... seems more an architecture issue
15:25:31 <mjk> q?
15:25:36 <dape> ... we seem to have use-cases
15:25:39 <dape> ack cris
15:25:39 <kaz> s/from ECHONET people/given Matsuda-san as the official liaison contact gave the description on the latest status of the ECHONET Lite Web API based on his slides and clarified he would continue to be the liaison contact, probably we should ask Matsukura-san to work with Matsuda-san to provide further clarification about their latest status and their preferred direction./
15:25:44 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:25:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:26:09 <dape> MK: feature of TD whether to expect a return value
15:26:45 <dape> EK: different aspect: action does not need input/output
15:27:14 <dape> ... write property is different
15:27:29 <dape> CA: Agree, different design choice
15:27:32 <kaz> s/given Matsuda-san as the official liaison contact gave the description on the latest status of the ECHONET Lite Web API based on his slides and clarified he would continue to be the liaison contact, probably we should ask Matsukura-san to work with Matsuda-san to provide further clarification about their latest status and their preferred direction./with ECHONET people?/
15:27:37 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:27:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:28:15 <dape> MK: for the industry we need some flexibility
15:28:35 <dape> .... model *looks* like property but is action...
15:29:04 <dape> ... different return value might mean it is an action
15:29:06 <dape> CA: +1
15:29:15 <dape> EK: +1
15:29:26 <ryuichi> +1
15:30:15 <dape> SK: clarifications with ECHONET are useful also
15:30:56 <dape> MK: it is in some SDF discussions also ...
15:31:34 <dape> SK: actions to me was always somethings that takes time
15:32:08 <dape> MK: we need to figure out best practices
15:32:41 <dape> SK: Okay... let's get back to this the next weeks
15:32:47 <dape> ... Thanks RM!
15:33:24 <dape> EK: FYI: related issue: observe vs event
15:33:38 <dape> SK: Agree, same kind of category
15:33:39 <dape> q?
15:34:31 <dape> TOPIC: Open PRs
15:34:37 <kaz> q?
15:34:59 <dape> SUPTOPIC: More fixes to canonicalization #1129
15:35:03 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1129
15:35:27 <dape> MMC: new rules
15:35:47 <dape> ... talked with Victor also
15:35:59 <dape> ... security objects were inlined
15:36:32 <dape> ...re-frame from RDF reversal needs to recreate name
15:37:01 <dape> ... base was an issue also
15:37:38 <dape> ... base cannot be changed in Canonicalization process
15:37:43 <dape> ... cleaning up corner cases
15:38:07 <dape> SK: Should we merge it?
15:38:19 <dape> MMC: not controversial .. but no review yet
15:39:22 <dape> .. created wd-update-candidate branch
15:39:57 <dape> ... review should be done in this branch
15:40:14 <dape> SK: rendered version in main branch only
15:40:23 <dape> q+
15:41:43 <dape> DP: not sure if this is overly comlpicated.. could hold back merging
15:42:18 <dape> MMC: should not change reviewed document
15:43:35 <dape> ... typos could be merged
15:44:48 <dape> .. bigger PRs should not be merged
15:45:28 <dape> SUBTOPIC: fix: ReSpec rendering issue #1132
15:45:32 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1132
15:46:37 <dape> DP: just escapes the {{
15:47:03 <sebastian_> sebastian_ has joined #wot-td
15:47:34 <dape> SK: Suggest to merge
15:48:05 <dape> ... no objections -> merged
15:48:09 <kaz> s/{{/"{{"/
15:48:36 <dape> SUPTOPIC: fix: some typos and misspellings #1133
15:48:40 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1133
15:48:53 <dape> SK: no concerns --> merging
15:49:13 <dape> SUPTOPIC: fix: tweak minor example bugs #1136
15:49:18 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1136
15:49:54 <dape> SP: just fixes examples
15:50:28 <dape> SK: no objections -> merging
15:52:22 <dape> SUPTOPIC: Comments - Call for Review of WoT Thing Description 1.1 specification and resolution to publish update #1137
15:52:26 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1137
15:52:37 <dape> DP: bug w.r.t. MultiLanguage
15:52:51 <dape> SK: Yes, we should fix that
15:53:22 <dape> MMC: suggest hold of creating a branch
15:53:30 <dape> ... merge my PRs later
15:53:46 <dape> SK: makes sense
15:54:19 <dape> MMC: Will work on my PRs in the meantime
15:54:41 <dape> SK: I will create a PR for issue 1137
15:55:13 <dape> ... I also suggest to update abstract, see https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1127
15:55:30 <dape> MMC: Seems more than just a bugfix
15:55:42 <dape> .. maybe discuss it in main call
15:56:10 <dape> SK: play to use initial example for ThingModel
15:56:24 <dape> s/play to/plan to
15:56:43 <dape> MMC: main call discussion next week?
15:56:47 <dape> SK: Agree
15:57:14 <kaz> q+
15:57:20 <dape> ack dape
15:57:55 <dape> Kaz: We need to go back to issue 1107
15:57:59 <dape> ... missed some points
15:58:16 <dape> ... need to clarify what is normative
15:59:09 <dape> ... e.g., ThingModel
15:59:20 <dape> MMC: I think ThingModel should be normative
16:00:07 <dape> Kaz: either way is fine. We just need to be clear
16:02:02 <dape> MMC: mark it as "at risk" is an alternative
16:03:00 <dape> SK: FYI: Editdor project is implementing ThingModel already
16:03:10 <dape> MMC: I am also not concerned
16:04:41 <kaz> s/1107/1127/
16:06:07 <kaz> scribenick: kaz
16:06:33 <kaz> SK: to tell the truth, I'm not sure if it should be included in the TD spec, though
16:06:55 <kaz> kaz: in that case, we can identify the TM feature as feature at-risk anyway
16:07:10 <kaz> ... if we can get sufficient implementations, that's fine and great
16:07:33 <kaz> ... I wanted to make sure about this point before our sending out the call for review request
16:07:36 <kaz> SK: ok
16:07:39 <kaz> [adjourned]
16:07:56 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:07:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:16:23 <kaz> i/We need to go back to issue 1127/topic: Issue 1127 (revisited)/
16:16:25 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:16:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/12-wot-td-minutes.html kaz