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15:57:31 <jgraham> Meeting: WebDriver-BiDi
15:57:36 <jgraham> Chair: AutomatedTester
15:57:46 <jgraham> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2021-05-BiDi#Agenda
15:57:58 <jgraham> ScriveNick: AutomatedTester
15:58:04 <jgraham> ScribeNick: AutomatedTester
15:58:11 <jgraham> RRSAgent: make logs public
15:58:16 <jgraham> RRSAgent: make minutes v2
15:58:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/12-webdriver-minutes.html jgraham
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16:02:19 <shengfa_> present+
16:02:19 <jdescottes> present+
16:02:26 <brwalder> present+
16:02:26 <sadym> present+
16:02:26 <whimboo> present+
16:02:27 <jgraham> present+
16:02:29 <JohnChen> present+
16:02:30 <AutomatedTester> https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2021-05-BiDi
16:02:58 <cb> present+
16:03:40 <AutomatedTester> present+
16:04:14 <jgraham> RRSAgent: make minutes v2
16:04:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/12-webdriver-minutes.html jgraham
16:04:47 <Honza> present+
16:05:46 <AutomatedTester> topic: Bidi client
16:05:53 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/pull/28381
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16:05:59 <simonstewart> present+
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16:06:35 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: there is a PR up for the bidi client. The structure is there but it doesnt have any functionality
16:07:03 <AutomatedTester> ... could people please look and see if there are issues. The sooner we get this in the sooner we can write tests
16:07:35 <AutomatedTester> ... it can send/receive messages but there are no predefined helper APIs
16:07:47 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:08:59 <AutomatedTester> topic: Navigation commands
16:09:04 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/pull/93
16:09:40 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: There is a PR up and a PR for the integration to HTML. brwalder and foolip have done a first pass
16:09:51 <AutomatedTester> ... this is nearly ready to land
16:10:19 <AutomatedTester> ...I have summarised the first first "issues" related to this
16:10:57 <AutomatedTester> ... WHen we navigate and it's initiated from webdriver we have the response from the command and the events that are returned
16:11:35 <AutomatedTester> ... foolip had the question that events happen and then we return the navigate request response
16:12:00 <AutomatedTester> ... and does this make sense or should we respond for the command and then do the events
16:12:50 <AutomatedTester> ... [describes how the promises can be responded to and the order]
16:13:01 <AutomatedTester> ... the 2nd question is do we handle relative urls
16:13:50 <AutomatedTester> ... and the 3rd thing is the proposal
16:14:15 <AutomatedTester> ... has wait for 1 event or do we want to be like puppeteer and wait for a group of events
16:14:29 <AutomatedTester> ... and since in html the event order is always guaranteed
16:14:44 <AutomatedTester> ... but should we care about the network idle
16:14:58 <AutomatedTester> ... so I could do with help understanding the use case
16:15:00 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:16:22 <AutomatedTester> ... if we are going to support an array we need to do it from the start and not patch it in later
16:16:44 <AutomatedTester> ... and the last topic is around page reloading
16:17:06 <AutomatedTester> ... I don't think this will be controversial and we can copy parts of puppeteer here
16:17:17 <jgraham> s/puppeteer/CDP/
16:17:32 <AutomatedTester> github-bot: end topic
16:18:05 <AutomatedTester> topic: Script execution
16:18:10 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/issues/63
16:18:49 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: After we have something for navigation the next item on the list is script execution
16:19:05 <AutomatedTester> ... as it can open up the rest of what we can do
16:19:19 <AutomatedTester> ... what are the requirements around this.
16:19:30 <AutomatedTester> q+
16:20:01 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I have written up in the issue some of the relevant things
16:20:09 <AutomatedTester> ... e.g. selectors against the DOM
16:20:48 <AutomatedTester> ... and being able to overload APIs on the page e.g. Random giving a response that isn't random
16:20:53 <AutomatedTester> ... and so on
16:21:20 <AutomatedTester> ... the next point is there are 2 points here on where we can execute script
16:21:30 <AutomatedTester> ... this can be on the page/worker
16:21:39 <AutomatedTester> ... and the 2nd one is sandboxing
16:22:01 <AutomatedTester> ... so that clients can install there own helpers that doesn't pollute the page
16:24:11 <simonstewart> q+
16:24:59 <AutomatedTester> ... we want it to be a lot like executeAsyncScript from webdriver but with more features
16:25:25 <AutomatedTester> ... and do we want to have it like using `arguments` or just execute as is
16:25:44 <brwalder> q+
16:25:54 <AutomatedTester> ... and the sandboxing seems really cool
16:26:31 <AutomatedTester> ... and do we want to have something like webextensions where we limit the surface and allow people to inject using something like a `postMessage`
16:26:43 <AutomatedTester> ack AutomatedTester
16:26:49 <AutomatedTester> automatedtester: One of the things that might be good is that Jason Leyba, a few years ago, suggesting moving webdriver execute script to being more promised based
16:27:01 <jgraham> s/limit the surface/have a dedicated WebDriver DOM API surface/
16:28:11 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: the way that CDP works now is that it has an `awaitPromise` type event
16:28:38 <AutomatedTester> ... and we can do something like that
16:28:41 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:28:48 <AutomatedTester> ack simonstewart
16:29:40 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: re: arguments... as long as we can reformulate webdriver on top then its fine. Ideally we want to update things in the simplest ways
16:29:50 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: [describes
16:30:08 <AutomatedTester> ... how call function works in CDP with arguments]
16:30:31 <AutomatedTester> ack brwalder
16:31:04 <AutomatedTester> brwalder: re: CDP something like `addBinding` or webextensions
16:31:18 <AutomatedTester> ... then we would have more network roundtrips
16:32:06 <AutomatedTester> ... where if we wnt for webextensions with a more `postMessage` structure then we can save a round trip as it can post straight away
16:32:35 <AutomatedTester> ... and if it were the `postMessage` then it would simplify sharing snippets of code
16:32:59 <AutomatedTester> ... it might be more work but it would be easier for developers and offer more functionalit
16:33:41 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:33:56 <AutomatedTester> github-bot: end topic
16:34:08 <AutomatedTester> topic: closing a session
16:34:11 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/issues/104
16:34:46 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: Last time we talked about only bidi session (no http then upgrade process)
16:35:02 <AutomatedTester> ... and corresponding to that we need to end the session
16:35:29 <AutomatedTester> ... and this should shutdown the UA
16:35:58 <AutomatedTester> ... and it should hopefully fit the requirement of implementing webdriver on top of this
16:36:11 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:36:30 <simonstewart> q+
16:36:44 <AutomatedTester> automatedtester: as long as it is like webdriver in cleaning up after itself that should be sufficient
16:36:46 <AutomatedTester> ack simonstewart
16:37:56 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: my understanding is we have 1 session limit... and if we shut the browser that should fully end the session
16:38:36 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: there are usecases where you would want to close the session [describes a use case around network monitoring]
16:39:03 <sadym> q+
16:39:03 <AutomatedTester> ... and I am reluctant to limit the lifetime of the session to that of the browser
16:40:28 <AutomatedTester> github-bot: end topic
16:40:54 <AutomatedTester> topic: Multiple concurrent sessions
16:41:00 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/issues/103
16:41:59 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: in webdriver http it never made sense to have more than 1 session per browser due to the blocking nature of the API
16:42:15 <AutomatedTester> ... however in bidi there are APIs where that limitation is not needed
16:42:21 <AutomatedTester> ... and use cases
16:42:43 <AutomatedTester> ... and we could have multiple tools connected to the browser
16:43:27 <AutomatedTester> ... there is more complexity supporting more than 1 session
16:44:07 <AutomatedTester> ... however multiple tools connected seems like a really appealing direction to go in
16:44:08 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:44:16 <brwalder> q+
16:45:05 <AutomatedTester> sadym: from the practical side it makes sense but from implementation it could be very difficult
16:45:10 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:45:12 <gsnedders> q+
16:45:13 <AutomatedTester> ack sadym
16:45:21 <AutomatedTester> ack brwalder
16:46:07 <AutomatedTester> brwalder: a question, from the clients pov, how do you tell the difference between new session and new session via attach
16:46:46 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: so from the client it is always connecting to the existing client (even if it started the browser)
16:46:57 <AutomatedTester> ... from the protocol point of view
16:47:59 <AutomatedTester> ... there are cases where we can set prefs/cli arguments but that are browser specific
16:48:40 <AutomatedTester> brwalder: <paraphrasing jgraham to understand>
16:50:02 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: [describes the differences between client starting the browser and then connecting and then just connecting the browser]
16:50:57 <AutomatedTester> brwalder: I just want to see how this is in practical terms for the browser
16:52:11 <AutomatedTester> ...and if it joins an already running browser and it connects, how did that happen
16:52:42 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I don't think it matters, it could be another tool or the user did the right commands to get it but we connected
16:53:02 <AutomatedTester> ... and we just assume the browser started the appropriate mode
16:54:11 <AutomatedTester> ... so you could connect to the ws and then get a session id
16:54:30 <shengfa_> I think supporting multiple concurrent sessions would have practical values for users, but we need to be careful about to what extreme would client be using it. i.e. They could start 200 concurrent sessions?
16:54:38 <AutomatedTester> ... and you could ask again and not worry if there is a session or not
16:54:47 <jgraham> q?
16:55:20 <AutomatedTester> ack gsnedders
16:56:41 <AutomatedTester> gsnedders: without adding complexity, in safari we only 1 browser and 1 safari
16:56:57 <jgraham> q+
16:57:00 <cb> q+
16:57:08 <AutomatedTester> ... there are a variety of different ways we could connect to a single browser
16:57:23 <AutomatedTester> ack jgraham
16:57:27 <gsnedders> s/safari/safaridriver/
16:57:49 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: to clarify the state of the browser would be accessible to all sessions
16:58:37 <AutomatedTester> ... e.g 1 session is active (do things) and another session is passive (doing monitoring)
16:59:02 <AutomatedTester> gsnedders: I am aware, just pointing out our differences to firefox and chrome
16:59:12 <AutomatedTester> ack cb
16:59:42 <AutomatedTester> cb: at Sauce we allow customers to connect to browser for automation and we connect to do monitoring
16:59:51 <AutomatedTester> ... and we want to continue supporting that
17:00:00 <AutomatedTester> ... via bidi
17:01:57 <AutomatedTester> RRSAgent: make minutes v2
17:01:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/12-webdriver-minutes.html AutomatedTester
17:02:00 <gsnedders> github-bot: end topic
17:02:17 <jgraham> RRSAgent: make minutes v2
17:02:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/12-webdriver-minutes.html jgraham
17:02:22 <jgraham> RRSAgent: stop