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14:55:31 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:55:32 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), wendyreid
14:55:44 <wendyreid> meeting: Virtual Locators TF Telco May 12, 2021
14:55:49 <wendyreid> date: 2021-05-12
14:55:55 <wendyreid> chair: wendyreid
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15:02:53 <BenSchroeter> present+
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15:03:14 <duga> present+
15:03:48 <tzviya> present+
15:03:51 <wendyreid> present+
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15:04:03 <pilarw2000> present
15:04:41 <ivan> present+
15:06:28 <pilarw2000> present+
15:07:50 <wendyreid> scribe+ pilarw2000
15:08:15 <wendyreid> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KO-HyLGUUw36F-ruAARHNiPO1aUJCCNeTv3zxGtjuHw/edit#gid=0
15:09:19 <pilarw2000> wendyreid: summarized last session, incl use cases review and categorization, per locator creation and use
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15:10:18 <George> present+
15:10:26 <George> q+
15:10:34 <wendyreid> ack George
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15:10:53 <pilarw2000> George: authoring tools?
15:10:58 <CharlesL> present+
15:12:35 <pilarw2000> Ivan: text editors are included in authoring tools
15:13:43 <pilarw2000> wendyreid: index use cases
15:14:14 <CharlesL> rrsagent, make logs public
15:14:27 <CharlesL> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:14:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/12-epub-locators-minutes.html CharlesL
15:14:54 <tzviya> q+
15:15:16 <wendyreid> ack tzviya
15:15:57 <pilarw2000> pilarw2000: current practices on embedding incl page numbers just because they're available
15:16:09 <pilarw2000> tzviya: same with XML, per embedding
15:16:44 <pilarw2000> duga: pre-epub vs epub locators
15:17:19 <pilarw2000> ivan: some other tools may be called for
15:17:32 <pilarw2000> duga: reading systems incl often authoring tools
15:17:44 <BenSchroeter> q+
15:18:09 <pilarw2000> wendyreid: authoring tools, reading systems vs readers
15:18:13 <wendyreid> ack BenSchroeter
15:19:20 <pilarw2000> BenSchroeter: indexers vs authoring tools
15:20:06 <pilarw2000> ivan: who puts locators in epubs? that is the question.
15:21:50 <pilarw2000> ivan: ie, pre vs post purchase of the epub
15:22:31 <CharlesL> q+
15:23:25 <pilarw2000> wendyreid: authoring tools include indexing tools
15:23:38 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
15:24:11 <pilarw2000> CharlesL: what about post-production indexes?
15:24:50 <pilarw2000> ivan: that's annotation, a separate use case
15:26:41 <tzviya> q+
15:26:50 <pilarw2000> wendyreid: deep-linking cases, how do they apply?
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15:27:30 <pilarw2000> duga: deep-linking uses cfi, and book identifiers
15:28:10 <garth_> present+ Garth
15:28:19 <pilarw2000> duga: user-interface issues are beyond what we are doing here
15:29:25 <pilarw2000> ivan: it's ugly code, where is the spec for it?
15:30:01 <wendyreid> ack tzviya
15:30:42 <pilarw2000> tzviya: full code combination for such deep-linking isn't final yet
15:31:29 <pilarw2000> ivan: theoretically we do have it
15:33:05 <pilarw2000> duga: disagree. we don't have the URL specifications yet
15:33:17 <pilarw2000> ivan: the reading system is the culprit
15:33:25 <tzviya> s/isn't final/isn't possible
15:35:41 <pilarw2000> duga: yes, it's from the reading systems
15:36:33 <pilarw2000> wendyreid: the how here is the challenge, beyond our scope
15:36:54 <pilarw2000> ivan: unless we use CFI
15:38:02 <pilarw2000> wendyreid: we are here to find new alternatives for page numbers
15:39:23 <pilarw2000> wendyreid: cross-reference/annotation use case
15:39:30 <CharlesL> q+
15:39:58 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
15:40:08 <pilarw2000> ivan: this is reading system stuff, annotation servers do this, not our responsibility.
15:40:25 <pilarw2000> ivan: annotation anchors are separate, and may be our responsibility however
15:41:30 <pilarw2000> CharlesL: we should invite the Hypothesis people (Dan) who have solved this, regarding annotation anchors
15:42:57 <pilarw2000> ivan: the Hypothesis system works nicely but uses a variation of locator references for their anchors, not anything we haven't already discussed.
15:44:03 <pilarw2000> tzviya: I will talk to Benjamin (of Hypothesis), who also worked on it
15:44:26 <tzviya> s/Benjamin (of Hypothesis)/Benjamin (of Wiley)
15:44:33 <pilarw2000> wendyreid: more index cases
15:45:08 <pilarw2000> wendyreid: we return to making locators readable
15:45:43 <pilarw2000> ivan: is there a tool that converts EPUB CFIs to something readable? that is what we need
15:46:20 <pilarw2000> garth_: not sure EPUB CFI is less readable than other fragment IDs
15:47:05 <pilarw2000> duga: this is about labels
15:48:33 <pilarw2000> wendyreid: we need a locator with semantic value to replace printed page numbers. CFI does that, but it's really long
15:48:54 <pilarw2000> wendyreid: how can we convert CFI to something shorter?
15:48:59 <wendyreid> q?
15:49:01 <pilarw2000> tzviya: and accessible
15:49:32 <pilarw2000> tzviya: readers like printed page numbers
15:50:03 <pilarw2000> duga: ranges too. page numbers are just so good, and none of this other stuff does that.
15:51:03 <pilarw2000> wendyreid: question to tzviya, what was it that readers didn't like about the non-page number locators?
15:51:30 <pilarw2000> tzviya: they found it confusing
15:53:05 <pilarw2000> ivan: wouldn't it be nice if the reading system displayed page numbers per the viewing/reading system device
15:54:20 <pilarw2000> duga: religious war over device pages and 'real' pages.
15:54:43 <George> q+
15:55:28 <wendyreid> ack George
15:55:59 <pilarw2000> George: we are making this too complicated. easy solution is to define fake pages for publishers and we define our hats on those
15:56:38 <pilarw2000> ivan: what would be the heuristics?
15:56:47 <pilarw2000> wendyreid: Adobe Digital did that
15:57:07 <pilarw2000> George: it's an authoring thing, not a reading system
15:57:24 <pilarw2000> tzviya: Adobe Digital was based on bit size
15:58:01 <pilarw2000> George: Let's make a golden rule, of so many characters = 1 page
15:58:26 <pilarw2000> wendyreid: internationalization would be complicated
15:58:48 <pilarw2000> garth: internationalization is solvable, though
15:59:26 <pilarw2000> ivan: I can be convinced that's the way to go, but we do need non-normative agreement heuristic
15:59:41 <duga> q+
15:59:50 <wendyreid> ack duga
16:00:10 <pilarw2000> duga: what about page lists? can we just use those page numbers?
16:00:19 <pilarw2000> George: yes
16:00:30 <pilarw2000> garth: if no page list, build one
16:00:54 <pilarw2000> wendyreid: no pages in digital-only
16:01:04 <pilarw2000> garth: make it up
16:01:16 <pilarw2000> George: non-normative, general guideline, let's make it up
16:01:59 <pilarw2000> wendyreid: think about this, limits that define pages, etc.
16:02:39 <wendyreid> zakim, end meeting
16:02:39 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been BenSchroeter, duga, tzviya, wendyreid, ivan, pilarw, George, CharlesL, Garth
16:02:41 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:02:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/12-epub-locators-minutes.html Zakim
16:02:45 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, wendyreid; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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