12:57:17 RRSAgent has joined #epub-fxl 12:57:17 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/05/11-epub-fxl-irc 12:57:18 MattChan has joined #epub-fxl 12:57:20 RRSAgent, make logs Public 12:57:21 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), wendyreid 12:57:33 meeting: Fixed Layout Accessibility Telco May 11, 2021 12:57:38 date: 2021-05-11 12:57:42 chair: wendyreid 12:58:29 laurab has joined #epub-fxl 12:58:41 present+ 12:58:47 present+ 12:59:09 Ken_Jones has joined #epub-fxl 12:59:38 present+ 12:59:56 present+ 13:00:21 present+ 13:02:05 scribe+ 13:02:34 wendyreid: in the last week i've gotten 2 sections for the document (Ken + Rachel) 13:02:42 ... i'll get these copied in 13:02:50 gpellegrino has joined #epub-fxl 13:03:10 ... we're trying to have the document in markdown, but we're having issues with respec right now 13:03:15 present+ 13:03:37 ... i'll talk to the author of respec to resolve 13:03:55 ... also, please note, it has to be github flavoured markdown 13:04:13 q+ 13:04:17 ack Ken_Jones 13:05:00 Ken_Jones: i've been in touch with a publisher who has said I can use their epub as example 13:05:15 https://paper.dropbox.com/doc/The-worlds-most-pointless-animals.--BKhfwLpoTYvZEF9K0Ud8fLuGAg-Euz0akuxswEt8xW2dSilT 13:05:34 CharlesL has joined #epub-fxl 13:05:41 ... this is link 13:05:42 present+ 13:06:16 rrsagent, make logs public 13:06:18 ... there are visual jokes (e.g. where words are crossed out, with what appears to be handwritten annotations) 13:06:21 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:06:21 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/11-epub-fxl-minutes.html CharlesL 13:06:32 Rachel_Osolen has joined #epub-fxl 13:07:12 ... also illustrations with lots of annotations (like a scientific diagram) 13:07:21 https://paper.dropbox.com/doc/The-worlds-most-pointless-animals.-Euz0akuxswEt8xW2dSilT 13:07:37 ... this link is a spread, but the title is on the left-hand spread 13:08:12 ... so would I use an H1 on one half of the spread, but no heading on the other half? 13:09:35 wendyreid: this is the kind of content we're up against, because the way it is currently presented is a PDF 13:10:03 VijayaGowri has joined #epub-fxl 13:10:32 q+ 13:10:41 ack CharlesL 13:10:42 George: one of the things we talked about is making an alternative rendering without using multiple renditions 13:10:44 q+ 13:10:47 ... could we do that here? 13:11:02 q+ 13:11:52 CharlesL: looking at these examples, the one with the sloth hanging down can probably be handled using img+alt-text 13:12:21 ... for the one with the spread with the pigeon, here alt-text would probably not be sufficient 13:12:52 Will has joined #epub-fxl 13:13:02 ... would probably have to have two H1s, a list of labelled terms for the annotations, plus the text at the bottom 13:13:20 ... ARIA describedby would not work, too much description to fit into alt-text 13:13:29 ack Ken_Jones 13:13:31 ... and we'd have to hide it too, which is not great for low vision 13:13:41 ... perhaps link to a separate HTML document 13:14:35 Ken_Jones: regarding the 3rd spread (the platypus) the issue is that the image is across the spread itself 13:15:07 ack gpellegrino 13:15:19 ... to George's suggestion, perhaps we could use the hierarchy of the individual pages (H1, etc.) to link up pages across the section 13:15:56 gpellegrino: what I would do is make a single HTML containing both halves of the spread, allowing me to have a single heading for both pages of the spread 13:16:19 ... for the annotations, I'd use

to capture this content 13:16:48 q+ 13:17:34 ack Ken_Jones 13:17:34 Suggest a "textual presentation of a visual publication" 13:17:38 wendyreid: the new way of creating alternative presentations (or whatever we're going to call it) depends on reading the code on the page, its difficult to use on this example which is just an image 13:18:07 Ken_Jones: could we call it a "textual presentation of a visual publication" or "visual to text" 13:18:42 q+ 13:18:43 q+ 13:18:50 ack laurab 13:19:13 laurab: is there a way to flip back and forth between single page and double page presentation? 13:19:30 ... and i love gpellegrino's suggestion of putting annotations in

13:19:57 q+ 13:20:02 ack Ken_Jones 13:20:13 ... but flipping back and forth is a good solution, because sometimes forcing a spread view makes the text too small, to the point of illegibility of small screens 13:20:38 5q+ 13:20:53 Ken_Jones: maybe there could be a way of associating a page with a preceding page (e.g. maybe landmarks) 13:21:17 George: many current RS show synthetic spreads as a presentation mode that you can toggle on and off 13:21:28 https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/core/#orientation-overrides 13:21:33 q+ 13:21:59 ... maybe FXL authors just have to be told that you can't manually force two page spreads because of the problem laurab raised 13:23:00 ... with gpellegrino's solution, wouldn't everybody see the aside? Or would there be a way to turn that off? 13:23:10 gpellegrino: yes, everyone 13:23:17 q+ 13:23:27 George: wouldn't that ruin the presentation for sighted people? 13:24:13 gpellegrino: I was thinking the asides would replace the images of the text currently in the annotations 13:24:14 ack Ken_Jones 13:24:55 Ken_Jones: would the main text also be in the aside then? 13:25:08 gpellegrino: no, in a regular

tag 13:25:26 ack CharlesL 13:25:45 Ken_Jones: would like to mention that there are features in FXL that allow you to control page orientation 13:26:28 CharlesL: we're going to discourage having images of text, rather preferring the use of CSS to lay the aside text out in the appropriate place on the page 13:26:44 q+ 13:27:09 ... now what about the case where the image itself goes over two pages, so that if the book is put into single-page mode, you'll only be able to see half the image at once 13:27:45 wendyreid: i linked to the section about the creation of synthetic spreads above 13:28:03 ... authors can declare a spread setting for the book, and then also override that spread setting on a per spine item basis 13:28:17 ack George 13:28:36 George: the reading order will have the text, the heading, and the asides 13:28:46 ... i think the asides are normally read in the order they are encountered 13:29:28 ... and they are normally all read, I don't think they'd ever be skipped 13:29:54 CharlesL: right, and if the aside is calling out something critical, we'd need to make sure it is called out before the main text 13:30:04 q+ 13:30:30 ack Ken_Jones 13:30:33 George: so, i'm not sure why we'd use an aside for this example, instead of a div 13:31:11 q+ 13:31:36 ack CharlesL 13:31:37 Ken_Jones: for the platypus one, the positioning of the annotations carries meaning, points to a part of the image 13:31:43 ... not sure how we'd convey that 13:32:05 CharlesL: the alt-text of the image itself could be used to contain this information (e.g. venomous spur, near back leg) 13:33:00 ... if you had multiple asides, you could use an ARIA label that describes what each aside is referring to 13:33:33 q+ 13:33:37 ack gpellegrino 13:33:39 wendyreid: maybe we can move on now, but we should use this example in our document 13:34:09 George_ has joined #epub-fxl 13:34:21 gpellegrino: the biggest publisher in ITA is preparing some sample content for us, and in 1 or 2 weeks we should expect to start testing 13:35:16 wendyreid: we need to continue working on the document, continue gathering examples for all the contributing publishers 13:35:35 s/for all the/from all the 13:36:00 ... right now we have a lot of work to do that doesn't seem to require discussion 13:36:21 ... so there's been a proposal to move meetings of this group to every other week 13:36:40 ... we'll also likely have some time at the F2F to show our work 13:36:43 +1 13:36:51 +1 13:36:51 George: +1 13:37:16 wendyreid: okay, so I'll create a new calendar invite for the bi-weekly meetings 13:37:28 ... when you accept, just delete the old series of meetings 13:37:53 ... F2F will be on 27/28th this month, similar to how we did TPAC, with an evening meeting, followed by a meeting next day AM 13:38:03 ... okay, does everyone know what they're working on? 13:38:07 q+ 13:38:11 ack Ken_Jones 13:38:50 Ken_Jones: i've written an article about reading order, so that's coming soon 13:39:04 ... could you share the screenshot of the various sections again? 13:39:15 https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/blob/main/epub33/fxl-a11y/index.html 13:39:35 wendyreid: i've created the structure of the document there 13:40:36 Ken_Jones: so i'll be doing navigation, toc, landmarks, hierarchy of headings 13:41:02 George_: when I navigate by headings, i've got choices, and I can just choose to go directly to the next heading 13:41:19 q+ 13:41:20 ... this is probably the most common way of navigating by heading, rather than by expanding and collapsing hierarchies 13:41:24 ack CharlesL 13:42:00 CharlesL: in this, it looks like it started out in HTML and then we went to markdown part way through? 13:42:12 ... the structure is a little unclear right now 13:42:31 wendyreid: yes, markdown is just an easier drafting language than raw HTML 13:42:51 ... if i can't get respec to do conversion to HTML automatically, I'll just take care of it 13:43:05 ... okay, if you have questions between meetings you can always reach out to me via email 13:43:31 ... so we won't have a meeting next week, but will have one the week after 13:43:53 zakim, end meeting 13:43:54 As of this point the attendees have been laurab, wendyreid, George, Ken_Jones, MattChan, gpellegrino, CharlesL 13:43:54 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 13:43:54 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/11-epub-fxl-minutes.html Zakim 13:43:56 laurab has left #epub-fxl 13:43:59 I am happy to have been of service, wendyreid; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 13:44:03 Zakim has left #epub-fxl 13:44:03 rrsagent, make logs public 13:44:18 CharlesL has left #epub-fxl