15:40:55 RRSAgent has joined #social 15:40:55 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/05/07-social-irc 15:41:08 Zakim, this is Social Web Incubator CG 15:41:08 got it, rhiaro 15:43:59 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:45:24 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 15:45:24 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/07-social-minutes.html rhiaro 15:45:29 RRSAgent, make minutes public 15:45:29 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', rhiaro. Try /msg RRSAgent help 15:46:02 Zakim, start meeting 15:46:02 RRSAgent, make logs Public 15:46:03 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), rhiaro 15:46:17 Meeting: Social Web Incubator CG 15:48:12 tantek has joined #social 16:11:49 reminder - SW CG meeting in 49 mins 16:55:40 Grishka has joined #social 16:58:02 chair: bengo 17:02:22 meeting starting at https://bbb.w3c.social/b/rhi-vp1-fv6-vn7 17:04:39 scribe: dmitriz 17:04:44 scribenick: dmitriz 17:05:05 bengo: ok, let's start this off 17:05:21 +present 17:05:54 present+ 17:05:58 present+ 17:06:01 dmitriz: 17:06:24 grishka: Hi. Am interested in giving Social Media back to people 17:07:28 bengo: next topic: let's revisit the Saturday alternating meeting time 17:07:39 ... the current time (7am PDT) is a bit early. 17:07:58 ... So I was wondering if we could do like, a ranked choice voting on the Saturday time slot. Any objections? 17:08:07 grishka: no objections, later would be better 17:08:51 bengo: ok, let's do a ranked choice vote on the time slots (Sunday also available) 17:09:01 sl007: hey, Sunday would be even better 17:10:01 https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/proposal-rank-choice-meeting-times-for-the-weekend-socialcg-meeting/1713 17:10:40 TOPIC: https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/2021-05-07-socialcg-meeting/1697/2?u=bengo 17:11:27 grishka: that FEP has to do with confirming whether an item already exists in the collection before adding it 17:11:40 ... I'd like to hear people's opinions on whether that's already needed, or just me 17:14:43 scribenick: bengo 17:15:27 bengo: Send an Accept to a Follow if you want to, but you don’t have to 17:15:41 bengo: Do you feel blocked on implementing something? 17:16:10 grishka: It’s not Accept, it’s Add. Because you’re proposing to Add something to the Collection. 17:17:08 grishka: I’m thinking about updating the FEP with this requirement of the Add activity 17:17:19 paul has joined #social 17:17:43 bengo: Yes, update the FEP and notify us of changes 17:18:08 grishka: someone says it’s excessive to require the Add activity 17:18:40 bengo: since the spec says SHOULD instead of MUST, seems like you're fine 17:19:46 bengo: What about your other use case of querying remote collection for containment 17:20:07 grishka: I need to read more 17:20:08 q+ to talk about LDP paging (to suggest against) 17:20:19 Q? 17:20:50 Dmitriz: Paging/sorting was not done well in LDP-PAGING. 17:20:55 dmitriz: It’s very under-specified. 17:20:58 q+ 17:21:09 dmitriz: That said, LDP did have a long discussion on adding an item only if it doesn’t exist 17:21:23 dmitriz: The initial proposal was to using If-Not-Modified HTTP headers 17:21:58 dmitriz: It was complicated for some implementations to normalize/canonicalize the items of the collection to understand if an item was present, and what the If-Not-Modfiied HTTP header value should be 17:22:01 dmitriz: The discussion was inconclusive. 17:22:25 bengo: Is that the approach you’d tak enow? 17:22:30 dmitriz: Not sure. Need to think about it 17:23:15 bengo: one thing that's on my mind a lot is, with AP, should we even use HTTP headers? (vs stuff everything into the request body?) 17:23:33 ... given that AP lends itself well to non-HTTP transports (websockets etc). 17:23:50 ... so I'd be hesitant to use a header like If-Not-Modified 17:24:42 “HTTP Signatures” is mentioned only twice in AP TR 17:24:47 and not with normative languages 17:25:29 grishka: HTTP Signatures are used in more implementations. And are easier to implement and universally understood 17:25:40 grishka: For example, Pleroma doesn’t support JSON-LD at all. Only relies on HTTP Signatures 17:26:14 dmitriz: Funny thing is that HTTP Signatures is seeing more activity at IETF, and they’re in process of changing it 17:26:30 bengo: Linked Data Signatures WG forming https://w3c.github.io/lds-wg-charter/explainer.html#usage 17:26:46 grishka: There is a 2-year old topic about these signatures 17:27:21 grishka: I have implemented Linked Data Signatures with unit tests 17:27:28 Grishka: Now I’m not touching them 17:28:47 q- 17:28:59 ack sl 17:29:20 sl007: In the last meeting we talked about finding out whether the impl would support Accept/Follow 17:29:51 code examples https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/2021-05-01-fediverse-interest-group-meeting/1649/24 17:30:16 sl007: If you would have a think like Follow, for instance, you could be able o say which actions are supported for which groups of people 17:30:33 sl007: For example, is someone allowed to post a ‘Wall Post’. 17:31:08 sl007: So ‘as:Public’ would advertise that anyone can post to the Wall 17:31:30 sl007: Another example ‘partyCheckin’ saying who could Arrive and who could Leave 17:32:13 sl007: Specify which activity type, which object type, and which actors 17:32:23 grishka: It should be specified who can add something to a collection 17:32:38 grishka: Owner of a Collection should be able to do anything with it 17:33:23 bengo: This reminds me of Web ACLs in Solid 17:33:36 dmitriz: In general I think ActivityPub needs better Authorization/ACL specs applied to it 17:33:47 dmitriz: Can we map the existing solid-style ACL to this type of operation? I’m not sure 17:34:05 dmitriz: I’m campaigning to get Solid to adopt AP-style Follow. But we haven’t gotten to Access Control 17:34:30 sl007: The main reason this is useful. I want to know from an AP implementation: “Do you support groups" 17:34:36 sl007: or “Which actions do you support?" 17:35:09 sl007: e.g. if I invite someone to a group, in my implementation a group invite can result in an Accept/Reject. But in Mastodon it requires something else. 17:35:53 paul has joined #social 17:35:56 bengo: Have you implemented this? 17:37:20 sl007: Not yet, but we’re just starting to talk 17:38:09 bengo: I encourage you to either implement it or author an FEP for others to implement 17:38:22 Dmitriz: Someone describe OMI 17:38:40 dmitriz: OMI is “Open Metaverse Interoperability” group. https://github.com/omigroup/OMI 17:38:57 dmitriz: They want to standardize some of their social/identitiy protocols, and maybe adopt some social web existing work 17:40:44 sl007: I should translate my sketch to an FEP or implementation 17:41:01 sl007: My question is: Any opinions on what we should specify via Link relations 17:41:20 sl007: for example rel=“Inbox” link rel header to the AP inbox 17:41:56 sl007: In the HTML markup, should we specify that a link relation is an ActivityPub actor vs somethinge else 17:42:32 (side note - welcome to paul & tim from the OMI community, to the call) 17:43:19 bengo: use https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Content_negotiation 17:43:48 Sl007: Do any other implementations use friend of a friend link relations? 17:45:00 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOAF_(ontology) 17:45:30 dmitriz: Let’s talk about the issue trackers 17:45:55 dmitriz: bengo had brought up “Is there a single issue tracker for the SocialCG?” 17:46:01 consensus: https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/social-cg-issue-trackers/1648 17:46:21 dmitriz: Result seems to be these links 17:46:37 dmitriz: There’s a swing issue tracker, there’s an ActivityPub-specific one, there’s an ActivityStreams2 one 17:46:44 dmitriz: There are also Fediverse Enhancement Proposals mechanism 17:47:10 https://github.com/hyperledger/aries-rfcs 17:47:29 [hyperledger] aries-rfcs: Hyperledger Aries is infrastructure for blockchain-rooted, peer-to-peer interactions 17:48:07 bengo: I like how the Aries RFC process is structured 17:48:15 ... might be worth looking at, for us, re the FEP process 17:48:43 ... while we might not be able to update the Activity Pub spec, we can do a lot through FEPs/RFCs 17:49:56 grishka: [someone] requires that two implementations interop with each other 17:50:00 dmitriz: Yes, w3dc 17:50:23 s/[someone]/IETF/ 17:52:46 humbletim: What is redaktor? 17:52:53 sl007: It’s my activitypub-compliant CMS 17:52:59 https://github.com/redaktor 17:53:26 humbletim: OMI is many different meta verse process collectively becoming aware that there’s an opportunity/need to collaborate 17:53:35 humbletim: It’s still formative, but that’s how I’m engaging with it 17:53:44 humbletim: ActivityPub is one of the things I’ve been looking at 17:53:57 humbletim: immerse.space has been using it as a thing for inter-world communications 17:54:14 humbletim: I’ve been trying to prove out some interop. But I’m not sure what to do next with it. 17:54:27 Dmitriz: Great question 17:54:46 Dmitriz: Good news is there’s a spec to use. Bad news is it’s kind of vague. Do you have access to source code? 17:54:52 humbletim: Yes, it is open source. 17:55:41 humbletim: https://github.com/immers-space/activitypub-express 17:55:49 humbletim: https://github.com/immers-space/immers-app 17:56:01 and http://immers.space/ 17:56:38 [immers-space] immers-app: Deploy your own immer, the federated social media server for the metaverse 17:57:00 sl007: https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/2021-05-01-fediverse-interest-group-meeting/1649/24 17:58:38 (that's a nice AP-express lib!) 17:58:54 humbletim: I’d like my POC to use a mongodb database. I’ve adapted it to use a pure JavaScript mogo emulation layer. I want to get it to be turnkey for people to play with, make interop easy 18:00:39 everybody, go vote for your preference for alternate week SocialCG calls: https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/proposal-rank-choice-meeting-times-for-the-weekend-socialcg-meeting/1713 18:02:21 https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG#Meetings 18:11:12 Zakim, end meeting 18:11:12 As of this point the attendees have been present, dmitriz, bengo 18:11:13 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 18:11:13 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/07-social-minutes.html Zakim 18:11:17 I am happy to have been of service, bengo; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 18:11:21 Zakim has left #social 18:12:01 RRSAgent, bye 18:12:01 I see no action items