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12:54:15 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:54:16 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), wendyreid
12:54:33 <wendyreid> meeting: Fixed Layout Accessibility Task Force Telco May 4, 2021
12:54:43 <wendyreid> date: 2021-05-04
12:54:47 <wendyreid> chair: wendyreid
12:55:52 <George> I am on the zoom using the same as the WG, is that right?
12:56:14 <wendyreid> Yup!
12:56:37 <George> present+
12:56:47 <wendyreid> present+
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12:59:56 <gpellegrino> present+
12:59:58 <laurab> present+
13:00:08 <MattChan> present+
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13:00:52 <CharlesL> present+
13:01:55 <MattChan> scribe+
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13:02:18 <MattChan> wendyreid: hi everyone, let's start with updates from what we did last week
13:02:23 <wendyreid> https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/fxl-a11y/
13:02:36 <MattChan> ... biggest update is that we now have a document in github
13:02:55 <MattChan> ... basically a skeleton version of the note, that we can now edit on there
13:03:09 <MattChan> ... please make your contributions via github PRs
13:03:33 <MattChan> ... or you can submit the text via email and someone will make the PR for you
13:03:52 <MattChan> ... its in a very early state right now
13:04:07 <MattChan> ... if sections are empty, then they don't appear
13:04:08 <wendyreid> https://kb.daisy.org/publishing/docs/contribute/
13:04:13 <MattChan> ... re. updates to Daisy KB
13:04:22 <MattChan> ... mgarrish refers us to that link
13:04:36 <MattChan> ... he is not very strict about it, so go ahead and open issues or file PRs
13:04:45 <duga> duga has joined #epub-fxl
13:04:51 <duga> present+
13:05:24 <MattChan> gpellegrino: i tried to figure out what were the coolest new CSS and HTML features for accessible FXL epubs
13:05:52 <MattChan> ... CSS flexbox, CSS grid, CSS media-queries
13:06:14 <MattChan> ... trying to create some epubs that mix FXL and reflow, which is enabled via the specs, but not widely supported by RS or implemented
13:06:40 <MattChan> ... using ARIA attributes to pull reflowable things from an FXL page
13:06:52 <Ken_Jones> q+
13:06:52 <George> q+
13:07:00 <wendyreid> ack Ken_Jones
13:07:34 <MattChan> Ken_Jones: talking with Lars from Collibrio, and he mentioned that the synced media group were working on doing panning and zooming within a page, like for comic books
13:07:54 <MattChan> ... their project is tied into audio, but it might also be useful for us
13:08:04 <wendyreid> ack George
13:08:27 <CharlesL> q+
13:08:31 <MattChan> George: the epubtest.org site now has its 90 day work plan up, including an item for an experimental epub
13:08:32 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:08:38 <MattChan> ... so we can start doing some AT testing with that
13:08:50 <MattChan> CharlesL: the epubtest.org test books are in a very specific format
13:09:06 <MattChan> ... i'd be happy to take the experimental book that we create here and create the test-version of the book
13:09:12 <MattChan> ... and write the test cases
13:09:29 <Ken_Jones> q+
13:09:44 <wendyreid> ack Ken_Jones
13:10:04 <MattChan> Ken_Jones: at the moment if an FXL epub is given to an AT screen reader, what happens?
13:10:10 <gpellegrino> q+
13:10:18 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:10:31 <MattChan> gpellegrino: i didn't test it, but usually AT intercepts HTML
13:10:38 <CharlesL> q+
13:10:40 <George> q+
13:11:00 <MattChan> ... so what the user gets is the actual HTML content
13:11:18 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:11:20 <MattChan> ... another set of AT are magnifiers, in which case you get a zoomed view
13:11:42 <MattChan> CharlesL: we work with a children's reading project who are retrofitting children's books
13:11:51 <MattChan> ... books are basically image with a text box
13:12:03 <wendyreid> ack George
13:12:04 <MattChan> ... we basically just added alt-text to the page
13:12:31 <MattChan> George: i've had some of the titles read out text, but it wasn't clear whether it was alt-text being read or text in the content
13:12:54 <MattChan> ... if the content text is in the correct reading order that should be pretty easy to read
13:13:10 <MattChan> ... text in images is a different (worse) matter, of course
13:13:32 <gpellegrino> q+
13:13:36 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:13:51 <MattChan> gpellegrino: here in ITA, we've also asked publishers for sample content
13:14:12 <MattChan> ... our big publisher may give us some content, but he's asked us what our policies are
13:14:21 <MattChan> ... something that he can show authors etc.
13:14:32 <MattChan> ... about how their content will be used, where it will be used
13:14:53 <MattChan> ... he also asked if we will use some kind of DRM, but I already told him "no"
13:14:59 <MattChan> wendyreid: okay, I'll look into that
13:15:34 <MattChan> ... I asked business group last week if publishers were interested in sharing content
13:15:51 <laurab> q+
13:15:59 <wendyreid> ack laurab
13:16:09 <MattChan> ... Lisa (PRH) said that they were looking into a way to get a document where structure is legit, but the content would be lorem ipsom
13:16:33 <MattChan> laurab: Groundwood Books can donate chunks of picture books, graphic novels, MO books
13:16:39 <MattChan> ... no DRM required
13:16:52 <CharlesL> q+
13:16:56 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:16:58 <MattChan> will: I have asked contact in Dubai to send sample of arabic book
13:17:22 <MattChan> CharlesL: do we have any folks representing JP publishers on the business group who can submit samples of manga?
13:17:32 <MattChan> wendyreid: good idea. I'll ask.
13:17:50 <MattChan> George: you can mention that just portions of a book would be good enough
13:18:11 <MattChan> wendyreid: we probably just need like a sample that they would put up on a publisher website
13:18:41 <MattChan> ... and i'll also try to come up with some sort of quasi-legal text about how we will use
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13:19:24 <MattChan> ... so now that we have documentation, we just have to do the work of updating it
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13:19:50 <MattChan> ... i believe we've had people offer to work on best practices document. Ken and Rachel.
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13:19:55 <Rachel_Osolen> q+
13:20:04 <MattChan> Ken_Jones: i've just about finished the FXL reading order article
13:20:26 <MattChan> ... wendyreid can you review for tone and language?
13:20:54 <MattChan> ... basically built off of what I've already written. Using some images as well, assuming that is okay.
13:21:21 <wendyreid> ack Rachel_Osolen
13:21:22 <MattChan> wendyreid: with a note we don't have to be as strict with the tone
13:21:50 <MattChan> Rachel_Osolen: i got some work done on accessible tables, and on accessibility metadata
13:21:55 <CharlesL> q+
13:21:59 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:22:14 <MattChan> ... in the past we were talking about adding metadata for a11y, is that still something we're thinking of?
13:22:33 <MattChan> CharlesL: yes, in accessibilityFeatures. Probably not adding any hazards
13:22:38 <George> q+
13:22:53 <MattChan> ... right now its just a wiki page based off of work Benetech did a while back
13:23:31 <wendyreid> ack George
13:24:08 <MattChan> George: accessMode sufficient = textual means all content can be consumed via text
13:24:21 <MattChan> ... if content contains images with alt-text, does that pass?
13:24:47 <CharlesL> q+
13:24:54 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:24:55 <MattChan> ... even if that book can't be zoomed?
13:25:51 <MattChan> CharlesL: from my understanding (based on Madeline Rothberg), as long as the alt-text has any text that is in the image, plus an extended desc of the image itself (if that is relevant), then accessMode sufficient = textual is okay
13:26:04 <MattChan> ... for picture books, accessMode sufficient = visual is correct
13:26:29 <MattChan> ... and then books that have a combination of text and images described by alt-text would be accessMode sufficient = visual, textual
13:26:44 <Ken_Jones> q+
13:26:48 <wendyreid> ack Ken_Jones
13:26:56 <MattChan> wendyreid: so I'd assume that for many FXL it would be "visual, textual"
13:27:02 <George> q+
13:27:12 <wendyreid> ack George
13:27:40 <MattChan> Ken_Jones: so for "visual, textual", does the entire content have to be consumable via each of them individually? or via the two modes in conjunction?
13:28:04 <MattChan> George: i think the clearest way to do this is by having multiple accessMode sufficient statements
13:28:25 <MattChan> wendyreid: maybe we can run this section of our doc by madeline once we have it more complete
13:28:44 <MattChan> ... but going back to Rachel_Osolen's question, "yes" we can add metadata values
13:28:50 <Rachel_Osolen> q+
13:28:52 <MattChan> ... if there is a compelling enough reason to do so
13:28:55 <wendyreid> ack Rachel_Osolen
13:29:26 <George> q+
13:29:27 <MattChan> Rachel_Osolen: so for now do I just say "we suggest that we expand the Schema"?
13:29:41 <MattChan> wendyreid: you can put that in an editorial note
13:29:43 <wendyreid> ack George
13:30:14 <MattChan> George: like gpellegrino said, there is AT that does magnification independent of content (e.g. make a picture biggest and pan around it)
13:30:41 <MattChan> ... but normally when we think of reflow, we think of low-vision folks changing font size and making the visual adjustments of the text
13:31:24 <MattChan> ... when we are making accessibility claims in our metadata, should we consider that zoomed panning acceptable?
13:31:43 <MattChan> wendyreid: i wonder if you should raise that with the epub a11y TF
13:32:00 <MattChan> George: it's a horrible reading experience
13:32:51 <MattChan> ... and with the EUAA, that's going to be a big big deal
13:32:59 <gpellegrino> q+
13:33:03 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:33:29 <Ken_Jones> q+
13:33:34 <wendyreid> ack Ken_Jones
13:33:43 <CharlesL> q+
13:33:47 <MattChan> gpellegrino: it is the same user experience you have with PDFs, and the EUAA requires that the user can change font, size, and different design options to accommodate his disability
13:34:33 <MattChan> Ken_Jones: I think that's what accessMode sufficient = textual should mean
13:34:52 <George> q+
13:35:31 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:35:43 <MattChan> ... i think we should just say that FXLs are normally visual documents, and only become textual if they can do all those things that gpellegrino said
13:36:02 <gpellegrino> q+
13:36:16 <gpellegrino> q-
13:36:20 <wendyreid> ack George
13:36:22 <MattChan> CharlesL: i wonder if we could have an FXL where the text was resizable
13:36:40 <MattChan> George: there's an accessibility feature about transformability?
13:36:57 <MattChan> CharlesL: yes, so that's the one that refers to resizing text, etc.
13:37:34 <MattChan> George: so the combination of accessMode = textual + transformability, results in accessMode sufficient = textual?
13:37:52 <Rachel_Osolen> q+
13:37:56 <MattChan> CharlesL: no, I don't think transformability comes into accessMode sufficient
13:38:13 <MattChan> George: but FXL is incompatible with transformability, yes?
13:38:42 <Ken_Jones> q+
13:38:45 <MattChan> ... i think we can get reading order, and I think we can get AT to read the text, but unclear what to do about low-vision
13:39:03 <MattChan> ... same thing with learning disabilities (need for personalized font, etc.)
13:39:18 <CharlesL> q+
13:39:19 <MattChan> ... this is getting to the heart of what we are trying to figure out here
13:39:26 <wendyreid> ack Rachel_Osolen
13:39:28 <duga> q+
13:39:28 <MattChan> ... (and the EUAA)
13:39:57 <MattChan> Rachel_Osolen: this is why I think we should add more to the Schema for metadata
13:40:37 <MattChan> ... to make it more clear what FXL can and can't do
13:40:47 <wendyreid> ack Ken_Jones
13:41:47 <George> q+
13:41:49 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:41:50 <MattChan> Ken_Jones: what about metadata for the type of screen size that would be best for the content
13:41:59 <duga> q-
13:42:03 <gpellegrino> q+
13:42:48 <MattChan> CharlesL: about transformability for dyslexia, there has been research that says that the reader just needs to get used to the font
13:42:59 <Rachel_Osolen> q+
13:43:00 <duga> q+
13:43:07 <gpellegrino> q-
13:43:12 <MattChan> ... just being able to change the font, even if the size remains the same, would be helpful
13:43:14 <wendyreid> ack George
13:43:56 <MattChan> George: unless we can come up with a way to have a parallel HTML presentation I think we're running up against a big problem here
13:44:11 <MattChan> ... like with multiple renditions
13:44:38 <MattChan> wendyreid: if the HTML is good, the page itself is what you are referring to
13:44:39 <wendyreid> ack Rachel_Osolen
13:46:07 <MattChan> Rachel_Osolen: when I train people on how best to write code for accessibility, I stress proper HTML
13:46:10 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:46:20 <MattChan> ... and the other thing I wanted to mention was proper use of colour
13:46:35 <MattChan> duga: Ken_Jones had an idea a while back about transforming FXL into reflow epub
13:46:50 <MattChan> ... an algorithmic solution
13:47:04 <MattChan> ... which would give us all the a11y benefits of reflow
13:47:26 <MattChan> ... I think we eventually referred this idea to the CG
13:47:40 <MattChan> ... if EUAA is on the horizon, then we have to start speccing that today
13:47:53 <Ken_Jones> q+
13:47:56 <MattChan> ... but it seems like something like that would solve a lot of our problems
13:47:58 <wendyreid> ack Ken_Jones
13:48:36 <MattChan> Ken_Jones: i think we need to get away from the idea of changing the idea of the FXL, like changing the font, because i can't see that ever becoming popular
13:48:58 <MattChan> ... as soon as you go down that path you end up with badly designed FXLs that are probably still not very accessible
13:49:41 <MattChan> s/changing the idea of/changing
13:50:02 <MattChan> wendyreid: let me take this away, since it gets into questions of charter, etc.
13:51:01 <MattChan> ... for those that have tasks about adding to/updating documentation, please share with the group via PR or email
13:51:23 <MattChan> ... for the experiments, lay claim to the ones you are interested in and go wild
13:51:50 <MattChan> ... ditto for the updates to the Daisy KB (and remember that Ken has already started that work with his outline)
13:52:00 <MattChan> ... AOB?
13:52:30 <MattChan> ... okay, thanks everyone, we'll reconvene next week!
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13:53:07 <wendyreid> zakim, end meeting
13:53:07 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been George, wendyreid, gpellegrino, laurab, MattChan, CharlesL, duga
13:53:09 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
13:53:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/04-epub-fxl-minutes.html Zakim
13:53:12 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, wendyreid; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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