12:25:47 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #eo
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12:25:49 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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12:25:51 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessibility Education and Outreach Working Group (EOWG) Teleconference
12:25:51 <trackbot> Date: 30 April 2021
12:25:55 <Sharron> Chair: Brent
12:26:04 <Sharron> Scribe: Sharron
12:28:27 <Sharron> Regrets: Andrew, Amanda
12:30:37 <Howard> Howard has joined #eo
12:30:44 <Howard> present+ Howard
12:32:24 <shawn> present+
12:32:35 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone
12:32:35 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', shawn
12:32:55 <brentb> present+
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12:34:07 <Sylvie> Present+ Sylvie
12:34:17 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
12:34:17 <Zakim> Present: Howard, shawn, brentb, Sylvie
12:34:25 <Sharron> Topic: Introductions
12:34:52 <Sharron> Brent: Introduce every one to new members.
12:35:13 <Sharron> All: Quick introductions
12:35:57 <shawn> Present+ Karl, Donna, Sharron, Mark, Jenn, Denis, Laura, Shadi, Howard, Leticia
12:36:05 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
12:36:05 <Zakim> Present: Howard, shawn, brentb, Sylvie, Karl, Donna, Sharron, Mark, Jenn, Denis, Laura, Shadi, Leticia
12:36:46 <Sharron> present+
12:37:32 <shawn> present+ Daniel
12:38:20 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
12:38:20 <Zakim> Present: Howard, shawn, brentb, Sylvie, Karl, Donna, Sharron, Mark, Jenn, Denis, Laura, Shadi, Leticia, Daniel
12:40:58 <shawn> present+ KrisAnne
12:41:51 <shawn> present+ Kevin, Bill
12:43:32 <shawn> Topic: EOWG Writing Style
12:43:36 <Sharron> Scribe: Brent
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12:44:25 <shawn> present+ Sean
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12:45:56 <Sharron> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/EOWG_Meetings#Agenda
12:46:00 <brentb> Sharron: In the recent past there has been comment about how much text was on some of the WAI site pages. We took the time to reduce content to be succinct.
12:46:05 <Laura> Laura has joined #eo
12:46:08 <shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Style#Tone
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12:46:18 <Laura> present+ Laura
12:46:22 <dboudreau> +present
12:46:31 <dboudreau> present+
12:47:09 <brentb> ... Some comments around this of late. Have we gone to far to shorten. Should there be more information, story, commentary on the pages to explain?
12:47:27 <Vicki> Vicki has joined #eo
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12:47:32 <Vicki> Present + Vicki
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12:48:32 <shawn> present+ Vicki
12:48:47 <brentb> ... There were a lot of comments about the relief that the resources were shortened. User response was very positive to this. Coined the phrase "tersification" and used that as a guide to be as clear, consise, and direct as we could be in the writing of the resources.
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12:49:29 <CarlosD> present+
12:50:08 <brentb> ... Let's take a reading break to look through some of the links in the agenda in this topic to get familiar with them, then we will move back to discussion around this topic.
12:50:39 <Donna> Donna has joined #eo
12:50:48 <bill___> What is the URL again? I connected late.
12:50:58 <Donna> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/EOWG_Meetings
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12:56:53 <Laura> +1
12:56:57 <MarkPalmer> +1
12:57:08 <bill___> Thanks. I meant for the docum+1ent we're to read.
12:57:13 <bill___> +1
12:57:15 <dboudreau> +1
12:57:26 <Howard> +1
12:57:39 <bill___> +1
12:57:53 <bill___> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Style
12:57:56 <JennC_> +1
12:58:20 <Vicki> +1
12:58:54 <brentb> +1
12:58:54 <Donna> Thank you!
12:59:58 <shawn> q+ to mention options
13:01:50 <brentb> Sharron: Is there a need for some resources to be more "story" like rather than just minimal information to get the point across.
13:02:18 <dboudreau> q+
13:02:42 <brentb> ... User testing in the past did show that people preferred shorter text on resources so that it was more consumable.
13:03:37 <brentb> Shawn: From a communications standpoint, there are some other ways to add more context around resources such as blogs when they are introduced, use expand and collapse more.
13:03:54 <Sean_Kelly_> I very much like the idea of linking out to the blog for the longer narrative.
13:04:01 <shawn> ack me
13:04:01 <Zakim> shawn, you wanted to mention options
13:04:05 <shawn> ack db
13:04:06 <brentb> Sharron: So lets jump in with comments.
13:05:58 <JennC_> q+
13:06:05 <brentb> Denis: With ARRM, our goal WAS to create a resource that was a little different than most other WAI resources. Where they can read, like they are talking to another colleague about implementing accessibility. Tried to make it as "friendly" as possible in the writing. May have gone a little too far with it.
13:06:39 <Donna> I dont know where the queue is. But I'd love to share thoughts on Content Strategy as a whole and how it could impact the approach
13:06:57 <shawn> q+ to note that W3C stuff was Underestanding?
13:07:17 <brentb> ... Question is, how much of our stance or opinion should be in the resources. When we are being super formal with the content, are we inadvertantly creating a wall between us and the reader.
13:07:53 <Laura> q+
13:08:19 <brentb> Sharron: Honest comments here are important as we all have the same goal of making our resources welcoming and desirable.
13:08:50 <brentb> ... The goal for the last five years has been to make our content more friendly and approachable.
13:09:17 <brentb> ... If people are still hearing the contrary I would love to hear more about that.
13:10:06 <brentb> Denis: I see W3C as the athority. I see EOWG [WAI site] as more informal, approachable.
13:11:19 <brentb> Shawn: Need to make an important distinction. Understanding and Techniques are very different than the WAI Resources. Let's be sure to qualify what resources people are referring to when we mention what people may be commenting on.
13:11:26 <shawn> ack shawn
13:11:26 <Zakim> shawn, you wanted to note that W3C stuff was Underestanding?
13:11:30 <shawn> ack Jenn
13:12:20 <brentb> Jenn: Agree with Denis, personal preference. I usually point people to WAI resources as it is a little less formal and easier to learn from.
13:12:55 <brentb> ... The power of narrative user stories helps.
13:12:59 <Donna> q+
13:13:50 <brentb> Sharron: Great idea to use the user stories as it will become more familiar and can be used as cross referencing.
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13:16:09 <brentb> Laura: Could be more consistancy. Readability should have more priority than brevity. In some cases I prefer the lengthier more readable style like in the ARRM proposal.
13:16:15 <Sharron> q- Laura
13:16:18 <dboudreau> Full transparency, I haven't really heard anyone complain about complexity and density of cntent that much in the past year or so... but it could also be because I haven't been referencing as many W3C resources lately and because I tend to be less involved with discussions that relate to WCAG per se.
13:16:27 <Sharron> q- Donna
13:17:04 <brentb> Donna: As a content strategist, I believe the person (reader) has to see themselves in the content that they are reading.
13:18:04 <shadi> q+
13:18:43 <brentb> ... Many, when they read about accessibiltiy, feel this is a big, difficult task. if you reframe the content with empowering the reader rather than just information, it may come across as more "doable" to the reader. Less of a challenge.
13:19:17 <Daniel> q+
13:19:36 <brentb> Sharron: One thing to keep in mind is our big push for translations. Translation of longer narratives is more work and sometimes may not translate well.
13:20:09 <brentb> ... Again we all have the same goal, to engage the broadest number of people with our content.
13:20:15 <Sharron> q- Shadi
13:21:22 <brentb> Shadi: Great discussion, over the years we have tried many different approaches. The WAI presentation style helps to break things up, boxes, summaries, bullets, expand/collapse.
13:22:05 <dboudreau> q+
13:22:35 <brentb> ... For beginners, the stories and more narrative information is very helpful. For those more experienced they are looking more for quick direction that they can get through faster.
13:22:51 <Sharron> q- Daniel
13:23:07 <brentb> ... Maybe there is a formular here that can be used to help people with different needs get to what they want to find in the format they prefer.
13:23:13 <shawn> q+ to support multiple use cases and preferences -- 1. newbie getting the lay of the land , 2. experienced looking for quick answer, 3. ...
13:23:56 <brentb> Daniel: I think we need to be sure to have key information that is short and to the point right at the top.
13:24:54 <brentb> ... I think it is good to make use of the methods the site uses to break up content. I do feel that we need to keep information short and to the point for those looking for what to do in respect for accessibility.
13:25:21 <Sharron> q- dboudreau
13:26:00 <brentb> Denis: Is it possible that people feel the content is more approachable because of the systems we have in place, like expand/collapse, etc.
13:26:44 <brentb> ... This is really a question of defining the kind of tone that we need as EOWG (WAI). Having a very different tone from W3C TR docs vs. WAI resources.
13:26:57 <Sharron> Sharron: +1 to Denis "defining consistent tone" becoming more approchable
13:28:06 <shawn> q+ to note did some UT on WCAG 3 intro
13:28:59 <JennC_> +1 to the expand/collapsable sections with information under descriptive headings on the page.  Easier to scan the page, find exactly the content the user is looking for (without sacrificing details that some people need)
13:29:14 <Donna> I feel like there is a differentiator between Reference Material and Site Content.
13:29:23 <Donna> And I think that's what we are hearing...
13:30:13 <Donna> q+
13:30:27 <JennC_> +1 with Denis' suggestion to asking practitioners for their feedback on the resources
13:30:56 <shawn> Brent: I think of WCAG and TR docs as W3C resources. I think of everything on the WAI site as EOWG resources.
13:32:07 <CarlosD> CarlosD has joined #eo
13:32:22 <shawn> ack me
13:32:22 <Zakim> shawn, you wanted to support multiple use cases and preferences -- 1. newbie getting the lay of the land , 2. experienced looking for quick answer, 3. ... and to note did some UT
13:32:25 <Zakim> ... on WCAG 3 intro
13:32:55 <brentb> ... WAI resource meant to be more conformance, what is needed to be implemented. EOWG resources are more "here is how to implement" accessibility.
13:33:41 <brentb> Shawn: I like the idea of digging into the use cases of people who are looking for our resources and be sure they meet the needs of those multiple use cases.
13:33:44 <dboudreau> To me, it's pretty straightforward... authoritative resources about accessibility (such as WCAG and Understanding docs) are WAI/AGWG, while more digestible resources to explain the authoritative accessibility documents is EOWG.
13:34:24 <dboudreau> Which makes us WAI's younger, more approachable sibling
13:34:49 <dboudreau> q+
13:35:15 <brentb> Shawn: With user testing in the past, comments have been to shorten content, bullet it out and get to the point. Later some others have commented that sometimes the bullets don't work well and they need more narrative for understanding.
13:35:49 <brentb> Sharron: Important in user testing to gather a broad spectrum of people to provide feedback.
13:35:56 <dboudreau> q-
13:36:25 <JennC_> q+
13:36:58 <brentb> Sharron: A lot of people in this community still are not aware of all or some of our resources.
13:37:17 <Sharron> q- Donna
13:37:20 <brentb> ... Important to know, who is using it, how are they using it, and why.
13:38:08 <brentb> Donna: Feel we need to talk about the content types. Summaries, blogs, communications will have a very different tone than the information, steps, etc.
13:38:37 <brentb> ... Also need to break it down by persona. Content will be different based on the persona.
13:39:21 <brentb> ... When you break it down by demographics, like generations, users like content pesented to them in different ways.
13:40:35 <brentb> ... Need to also look at roles, what roles are looking for the information and what style of information are they looking for becuase of their role or job responsibility.
13:41:20 <brentb> ... Creating content that sucks people in, blog posts, etc, will be much more viral content that we can create and use to pull people in.
13:43:27 <brentb> Jenn: Feedback and usability testing campaign... at my work I get to work with a lot of different people with roles and responsibilities. Would be very willing to work with some of the teams that I work with to give some feedback on the resources of WAI. I introduce them all the time in training as more relatable resources. Happy to gather feedback.
13:44:42 <Donna> Suggested Next Steps: - Content Audit - Persona Research
13:45:36 <brentb> Shawn: I like brainstorming the big picture on thinking through style and making adjustments, in reality we need to figure out what adjustments can be made and implemented within our current structure, priorities, and bandwidth.
13:46:21 <kwhite> -1
13:46:24 <dboudreau> 0
13:46:25 <Vicki> -1
13:46:26 <JennC_> 0
13:46:29 <brentb> Sharron: Main thing for today was to think through WAI style and tone. Hearing that maybe we should start to use more narrative. How is everyone feeling.
13:46:32 <Donna> +1
13:46:38 <CarlosD> 0
13:46:43 <dboudreau> q+
13:46:53 <Donna> q+
13:46:54 <Laura> 0
13:46:54 <shawn> q+ to ask about media resource
13:46:58 <Howard> 0 (depends on resource)
13:47:05 <Vicki> q+
13:47:11 <kwhite> q+
13:47:34 <shawn> q- jenn
13:47:46 <Sharron> q- JennC
13:48:06 <Sharron> q- dboudreau
13:48:07 <Sean_Kelly_> -1
13:48:40 <shawn> q- last
13:48:54 <Sharron> Denis: Are we clear avout who we are writing for, I don't think we are
13:49:32 <Sean_Kelly_> q+
13:49:44 <brentb> Denis: Are we clear on who we are writing for? People who are trying to understand WCAG or those trying to implement it, or other. Who is our reader? Which direction we go with who is our reader will inform how we should write.
13:51:13 <shawn> q- later
13:51:57 <shadi> q+
13:52:05 <brentb> ... Really stuck on the authoratative part of this. Every resource editor is needing to make the determination of more/or less narrative. More about knowing who we are writing for AND the intent of the resources.
13:52:05 <shadi> q-
13:52:35 <shadi> +1 most of our documents have a broad spectrum of audience
13:52:49 <brentb> Sharron: Some of the issue is that often there are multiple audiences that have very different needs.
13:53:30 <shadi> q+ to respectfully disagree with dboudreau
13:54:21 <brentb> Denis: Many of the resources do actually point to specific readers. Some are for all, but many can be determined that it is for x, y, or z user, and the resource can be more written for that audience.
13:54:42 <Sharron> q- shadi
13:55:43 <brentb> Shadi: This could be over simplifying a little. I feel that the audience variety for each resource is more wide than we realize.
13:56:07 <Sharron> q- Donna
13:56:11 <brentb> ... Need to be sure we are addressing individuals from many different type of organizations.
13:58:26 <brentb> Donna: Definable next steps. Recommend doing a persona refresh based on data, also do a content audit. Then relate this information back to the personas. Then pick the top three to five personas to write to. Break down the writing of the content to hit the top audience groups rather than trying to write for all audiences.
13:58:48 <brentb> Sharron: We have some of that usability research that we can share with you.
13:59:22 <brentb> Donna: Would love to partner with people on a content audit and a persona refresh.
14:00:21 <brentb> ... Once we have this data then we can discuss some of these in future meetings. Discuss what has been identified.
14:00:34 <brentb> Sharron: Would love to take that offline and pursue the ideas.
14:00:41 <Sharron> q- Vicki
14:00:53 <kwhite> q-
14:01:18 <shadi> +1 to "depends on resource"
14:01:18 <kwhite> +1 to Vicki's comment that "it depends"
14:02:30 <Sharron> q- kevin
14:02:54 <brentb> Vicki: It really does depend on the resource (whether it is more narrative or more tersified). This will help users who are looking for exactly what to do save time not having to read the story. But for others that are looking for the what, why, narrative in a resources it is there.
14:04:43 <brentb> Sean: There are different users that have different needs for these resources. Example, some need the "just in time" resources that are more bullet points. But then also include links to more narrative content for when people want to dig in.
14:05:45 <shawn> +1 to short bit default and longer bits optional
14:05:59 <brentb> ... If you use a more narrative approach then you are not helping those that need the "just in time" shorter content. So if it is designed in a way to offer both approachees it will be more helpful to the variety of uses.
14:06:02 <shawn> ack me
14:06:02 <Zakim> shawn, you wanted to ask about media resource
14:06:11 <Donna> I agree - more narrative does not have to be much longer. Agree to keep it simplified.
14:06:22 <Sharron> q- Sean_Kelly
14:06:34 <brentb> ... Use both rather than either [tersified vs. narrative]
14:07:13 <brentb> Shawn: I am interested in reactions of people to the Media resource example in the agenda.
14:08:14 <Vicki> +1 for the media resource
14:08:45 <Sean_Kelly_> +1 on media resource
14:08:51 <brentb> Denis: To me, the writing of the Media resource is good. Quick read, can get to where you want to go quickly, iconography helps to structure. Then you can get into the longer resource.
14:08:57 <Sean_Kelly_> +1 on dennis comment
14:09:59 <brentb> Donna: I like the layout, still feel like it needs a user first tone in the intro.
14:10:45 <brentb> Sean: I like the brevity, it is short, can see all parts, but then you can get down into each document to get more of the narrative detail.
14:14:00 <shadi> q+
14:14:24 <brentb> ack Shadi
14:14:24 <Sharron> Scribe: Sharron
14:15:10 <shawn> +1 to mix of approaches in same resource
14:15:50 <shawn> SAZ ref: "Do you remember a time when people around you broke out in laughter, but you didn’t hear the joke?
14:15:50 <shawn> Be careful not to leave out information for some people in your audience. For example, if you say “you can read it on the slide”, you are probably excluding people who cannot see the slide."  https://www.w3.org/WAI/teach-advocate/accessible-presentations/
14:16:41 <Sharron> Shadi: Seeing the discussion had so may persepctives, can we take different approaches within the same resources, in addiiton to audience ID and tone specific to them? Example from "How to Make Presentations Accessibile" Can integrate different approaches within resources.
14:18:07 <Sharron> Brent: We struggle with how to present our resources and appreciate your spending the time on this. Must continue to consider our approach to be most useful.
14:18:18 <Sharron> Topic: Sty;e Guode Update
14:18:22 <shawn> style guide update proposal: first bullet under https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Style#Personas_and_use_cases
14:18:22 <shawn> diff of this change: https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/index.php?title=Style&type=revision&diff=33536&oldid=33383
14:18:42 <Sharron> s/Sty;e Guode Update/Style Guide Update
14:19:15 <dboudreau> +1
14:19:20 <Vicki> +1
14:19:26 <shawn> Broadened "For persona names, include different ethnicities and genders." to include pictures, descriptions, ages, disabilities
14:19:27 <Sharron> Shawn: It is not just that the persona names have changed but also pictures, etc
14:19:35 <Sharron> +1
14:19:36 <Laura> +1
14:19:37 <kwhite> +1
14:19:43 <Sean_Kelly_> +1
14:19:54 <Daniel> +1
14:19:58 <krisannekinney> krisannekinney has joined #eo
14:20:09 <MarkPalmer> +1
14:20:11 <krisannekinney> present+
14:20:11 <Howard> +1
14:20:13 <krisannekinney> +1
14:20:13 <shawn> s/ It is not just that the persona names have changed but also pictures, etc/ It is not just the persona names but also pictures, etc
14:21:34 <Sharron> Dona: Do you have psychometric data as well? Like in my case being raised in a family with disabilites, do we have the larger story like that? Where did the statistics come from?
14:23:15 <Sharron> Shawn: That might be a different questions...in this case all the names were Anglo or all the ages were in teh 20s etc. So this is just to ensure that as different resources are developed that groups consider.
14:24:16 <shawn> +1
14:24:20 <brentb> +1
14:24:22 <CarlosD> +1
14:24:24 <Donna> +1
14:24:25 <Howard> +1
14:24:27 <Sylvie> +1
14:24:29 <Sharron> RESOLLUTION: Accept this change to the Style Guide
14:24:30 <dboudreau> +1
14:24:33 <Laura> +1
14:25:58 <Sharron> Topic: Wrap_UP
14:25:59 <Donna> LOL side note: the screaming frog just hit 51%
14:26:45 <Sean_Kelly_> Have to drop for next meeting, thanks all.
14:26:45 <Sharron> Brent: Please stay up with Work for this Week, complete surveys, especially the Video surveys and avaiability for telelconference
14:27:44 <Sharron> ...style of the script is to be extremely succinct, removing extraneous narrative and focus on illustrating the points.
14:28:01 <Sharron> ...any other comments or questions for today?
14:28:35 <bill___> bill___ has left #eo
14:28:38 <Sharron> ...thanks for everyone comments please send more information as it occurs to you have a great weekend, see you next week.
14:28:48 <Sharron> trackbot, end meeting
14:28:48 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
14:28:48 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Howard, shawn, brentb, Sylvie, Karl, Donna, Sharron, Mark, Jenn, Denis, Laura, Shadi, Leticia, Daniel, KrisAnne, Kevin, Bill, Sean,
14:28:51 <Zakim> ... present, dboudreau, Vicki, CarlosD, krisannekinney
14:28:56 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:28:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/30-eo-minutes.html trackbot
14:28:57 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
14:28:57 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
14:29:00 <dboudreau> Thanks all