23:49:11 RRSAgent has joined #epub-locators 23:49:11 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/04/28-epub-locators-irc 23:49:13 RRSAgent, make logs Public 23:49:14 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), wendyreid 23:49:25 meeting: Virtual Locators TF Telco April 28, 2021 23:49:30 date: 2021-04-28 23:49:33 chair: wendyreid 23:49:41 regrets + dlazin 00:01:00 BenSchroeter has joined #epub-locators 00:01:13 present+ 00:02:42 present+ 00:03:05 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KO-HyLGUUw36F-ruAARHNiPO1aUJCCNeTv3zxGtjuHw/edit#gid=0 00:04:37 marisa has joined #epub-locators 00:04:44 present+ 00:04:57 marisa has joined #epub-locators 00:05:51 PilarW2000 has joined #epub-locators 00:05:58 present+ 00:06:24 Mary has joined #epub-locators 00:06:44 present+ Mary 00:06:59 present+ Ronnie 00:07:08 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KO-HyLGUUw36F-ruAARHNiPO1aUJCCNeTv3zxGtjuHw/edit#gid=0 00:09:12 BenSchroeter_ has joined #epub-locators 00:09:19 scribe+ 00:10:13 Wendy: CFI implementation is often implemented by reading systems or other user agents in the ecosystem 00:10:42 ...how do we make CFIs more "friendly" is still an open question 00:11:26 ...reviewing collected use cases: things like deep linking may be more difficult than things like bookmarks, annotations, etc. 00:12:08 BenSchroeter_: It's a good collection, but there's some overlap 00:14:41 Wendy: CFI currently lives in IDPF... discussing with chairs if we should promote to W3C, maybe as a note so we can start editing 00:14:55 ...then eventually it could be turned into a spec 00:15:56 q+ 00:16:34 Ronnie: Is there anything we can do to make it easier to adopt for indexers and reading systems? 00:16:51 ack PilarW2000 00:16:55 ack PilarW 00:16:59 Wendy: yes that's what we are thinking about 00:17:45 Pilar: In Adobe Acrobat I was updating page numbers (labels) globally - that's what we need for CFIs 00:18:15 q+ 00:18:39 Wendy: we've been calling them locators, but labels is interesting 00:18:39 ack Mary 00:19:24 May: we need a common language. locator link text? we need terms and definitions that we all can agree on and know what we are talking about 00:19:31 May=Mary 00:20:34 Wendy: CFIs might be massively overpowered for our use cases, which seem to hone in on a paragraph- or line-level locator 00:20:52 ...CFI can be much more precise 00:21:21 Pilar: that kind of accuracy and precision is great for indexers though 00:22:07 Wendy: at what point does the locator need to be applied, and by whom? 00:23:48 ...we have use cases that indicate we want to point to a section or even a heading 00:24:12 q+ 00:24:20 ... and we have use cases where a user, not an author or an indexer, wants to determine a locator 00:24:35 ack Mary 00:25:18 Mary: we are a step ahead of the user - we can monitor their behavior 00:26:09 ...we should be nimble about how we do this because we don't know what the user experience will be ultimately 00:26:59 q+ 00:27:29 ack marisa 00:27:36 ...users are still thinking in terms of pages and drift around when you point them to something 00:28:09 q+ 00:28:11 marisa: if someone is using a screen reader, they would go to precisely where they are pointed 00:28:14 ack PilarW 00:29:03 pilar: is there a way we can apply a highlight or other marker dynamically when the user arrives at the location? 00:29:42 marisa: the reading system might be able to do so in some cases 00:31:14 Wendy: the reading system takes control of these things - even media overlays can defer to reading system control 00:31:34 marisa: do we have examples of books with CFIs? 00:31:48 Wendy: Brady might have some Google examples 00:32:34 Ronnie: what has to be true to implement? 00:33:12 Wendy: publishers have to want it, reading systems have to implement it. Like any tooling. 00:34:23 Marisa: need to be able to translate CFIs into something that is understood by browsers. Maybe also look at selectors and states. Also see if others are considering this 00:34:53 Wendy: a lot of different people are coming at this from different places and through different lenses 00:37:18 ...CFI was designed with books (multi-page, multi-section documents) in mind, which is why we keep coming back to it 00:37:52 marisa: are we talking about pointing to an element from afar or putting some sort of anchor on an element 00:38:49 BenSchroeter_: You don't put a marker in a book, but you derive it's location, the CFI is a protocol for deriving the location, and can use it to point to it from afar 00:39:40 ... CFI is attractive because it's a way to put a pin in a location with multiple pages/locations, that can be pointed to from multiple places 00:39:52 ... outside the book, from a LMS, from an index 00:40:15 ... but we want to put some human-readable front on it so it can be referenced 00:41:09 Ronnie: we need to mask it with something human-readable 00:41:22 marisa: but then the onus is on the tools, which would have to perform that mapping 00:42:11 Wendy: aside from determining what technical improvements, how do we create something human-readable but also understandable for a reading system 00:42:39 ...that's the tricky part 00:44:04 Mary: is money and marketing the crux? does the burden fall with the publisher? it can't fall to the user. it needs to do what they want it to do. 00:45:42 Wendy: the question was considered, why isn't their wider implementation of CFI? the use cases weren't appealing enough, perhaps. If we tout the features we might have wider adoption of digital publications generally. 00:46:27 Pilar: we tried that with the indexing spec, but it didn't catch on outside book fair settings 00:46:51 marisa: do we have an explainer? 00:47:28 ...for CFI? 00:48:44 ...it would be valuable to have a better understanding from the creators 00:49:38 Wendy: I propose that before next week we look at the new columns I added to the use case table 00:50:16 and determine who is responsible for the locator, who uses the locator, and how specific does the locator need to be 00:51:03 That will give us something to do and perhaps help propel us into the direction of making CFIs more "friendly" 00:51:18 Ronnie: does an ebook always have structure? 00:51:49 Wendy: there are always cases where there are chaotic publications 00:52:16 ...generally publishers try to apply structural semantics though 00:53:29 Wendy: so let's flesh out those use cases and consider if we need more information as well. 00:54:26 ...my homework ill be to see if we can get the document moved from IDPF to Github 00:55:04 Ronnie: sometimes we want to define a range with a starting and an ending. that would be a different category of locator 00:55:17 Wendy: yeah let's note that use case as well. 00:55:58 zakim, end meeting 00:55:58 As of this point the attendees have been wendyreid, BenSchroeter, marisa, PilarW, Mary, Ronnie 00:56:00 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 00:56:00 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/28-epub-locators-minutes.html Zakim 00:56:03 I am happy to have been of service, wendyreid; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 00:56:07 Zakim has left #epub-locators 00:56:10 rrsagent, make logs public 07:21:44 ivan has joined #epub-locators