IRC log of silver on 2021-04-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:43:29 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
16:43:31 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:43:32 [Zakim]
Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
16:43:48 [jeanne]
Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
16:43:48 [jeanne]
16:43:48 [jeanne]
chair: Shawn, jeanne
16:43:48 [jeanne]
16:43:49 [jeanne]
zakim, clear agenda
16:43:49 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:43:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jeanne
16:43:49 [jeanne]
16:43:49 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
16:45:25 [jeanne]
agenda+ reminder: AGWG- Silver joint meeting 29 April
16:45:25 [jeanne]
agenda+ Timeline and deadlines for May heartbeat Working Draft (WD)
16:45:25 [jeanne]
agenda+ ACT -Silver Joint meeting - 14 & 21 May
16:45:25 [jeanne]
agenda+ Subgroup checkin - what will be in the May WD? Reminder to update participant lists
16:45:27 [jeanne]
agenda+ review Options 1,2,3,5
16:45:27 [jeanne]
agenda+ review Options Issues
16:45:56 [jeanne]
regrets+ Jan, ANgela, Todd, Sarah
16:51:03 [johnkirkwood]
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17:50:50 [sajkaj]
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17:52:58 [JF]
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17:53:41 [JF]
17:54:00 [sajkaj]
17:54:06 [JF]
17:54:07 [sajkaj]
zakim, who's here?
17:54:07 [Zakim]
Present: jeanne, sajkaj, JF
17:54:09 [Zakim]
On IRC I see JF, sajkaj, johnkirkwood, RRSAgent, jeanne, alastairc, jcraig, Zakim, MichaelC, ChrisLoiselle, Rachael, joconnor, AWK
17:54:13 [ChrisLoiselle]
17:56:35 [Chuck]
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17:57:33 [Azlan]
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17:57:38 [Chuck]
17:58:13 [Chuck]
17:58:36 [Azlan]
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18:00:31 [sajkaj]
scribe: sajkaj
18:01:09 [bruce_bailey]
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18:01:15 [Lauriat]
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18:01:16 [jeanne]
zakim, take up next
18:01:16 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- reminder: AGWG- Silver joint meeting 29 April -- taken up [from jeanne]
18:01:23 [bruce_bailey]
18:01:27 [Lauriat]
18:01:31 [jennifer_strickland]
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18:01:34 [jennifer_strickland]
18:01:35 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Reminder of joint meeting next Thursday 29 April
18:01:36 [jeanne]
18:01:45 [PeterKorn]
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18:01:56 [PeterKorn]
18:02:23 [Fazio]
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18:02:26 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Note the agenda with references to advance reading
18:02:28 [Fazio]
18:02:45 [johnkirkwood]
18:03:02 [Francis_Storr]
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18:03:15 [Francis_Storr]
18:03:19 [jeanne]
zakim, take up next
18:03:19 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- Timeline and deadlines for May heartbeat Working Draft (WD) -- taken up [from jeanne]
18:03:43 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Reminder also for May ?WCAG3 heartbeat publication
18:03:59 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Not many changes and not a wide review draft. Showing progress, mainly
18:04:37 [SuzanneTaylor]
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18:04:45 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Requesting everyone/group with content; PR by 30 April, else Google doc (or other) by 28 April
18:05:10 [sajkaj]
jeanne: WBS throughout first weeks of May; looking to pub mid-late May
18:05:31 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Whatever misses this draft should be targeted for August heartbeat
18:05:40 [PeterKorn]
18:05:49 [Lauriat]
ack PeterKorn
18:06:11 [sajkaj]
PeterKorn: Is there yet an outline of what to expect new in August?
18:06:19 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Shortly in today's call ...
18:06:26 [jeanne]
zakim, take up next
18:06:26 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- ACT -Silver Joint meeting - 14 & 21 May -- taken up [from jeanne]
18:06:49 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Announcing joint meetings with ACT mid-late May; two 3 hour meetings
18:07:06 [jeanne]
18:07:11 [sajkaj]
jeanne: 14 and 21 May
18:08:02 [sajkaj]
jeanne: No agenda yet; but wiki setup
18:08:26 [jeanne]
zakim, take up next
18:08:26 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- Subgroup checkin - what will be in the May WD? Reminder to update participant lists -- taken up [from jeanne]
18:09:31 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Looking for updates -- and please be sure to update participant list on the subgroup wikis! Needed to create acknowledgements page in heartbeat
18:09:56 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Ping me for help if needed
18:10:12 [Fazio]
I'll email you for maturity model
18:10:37 [Fazio]
Maturity Model is ready for May!
18:10:38 [jeanne]
18:10:49 [PeterKorn]
18:10:54 [sajkaj]
jeanne: In subgroup reports interested in what's in the May heartbeat and what planned for the August heartbeat
18:10:55 [PeterKorn]
18:11:38 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Notes there're milestone drafts for May, August, and December heartbeats--though too early to specify for December
18:11:57 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Example Clear Words has issues for May and August
18:12:28 [sajkaj]
18:12:31 [PeterKorn]
18:12:42 [Lauriat]
ack PeterKorn
18:13:51 [sajkaj]
PeterKorn: Noting expectation that Conformance Options will be raising topics that should get discussion in the TF, hpefully beginning the 29th and phps decide then on target heartbeats?
18:14:15 [sajkaj]
PeterKorn: Will involve fair amount of discussion at least in Silver if not also in AGWG
18:14:21 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Agree
18:14:35 [PeterKorn]
18:14:53 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Asks whether any specific for the group to know?
18:15:27 [sajkaj]
PeterKorn: Notes March report with challenges and use cases that could be handled with writing guidelines; so eager to work with relevant teams
18:16:18 [sajkaj]
PeterKorn: Second set are first report on use cases not yet encompassed in WCAG3; so a report on things to discuss
18:17:08 [Wilco]
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18:17:16 [Wilco]
18:18:17 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Asks whether people should read both March and April for joint calls on the 29th
18:18:38 [sajkaj]
PeterKorn: Suggest focus on April as it's the initial "what's missing" conversation
18:19:13 [sajkaj]
PeterKorn: Also requests people not dive into our Google doc
18:19:20 [SuzanneTaylor]
q+ to mention XR Subgroup's request for feedback on initial draft of a Method related to XR subtitles
18:19:35 [sajkaj]
topic: Captions
18:19:51 [sajkaj]
SuzanneTaylor: Notes XR meeting off line; look for email from Mike Crab
18:20:10 [sajkaj]
SuzanneTaylor: Have written an initial draft and a bit different in methods
18:20:30 [sajkaj]
SuzanneTaylor: assumes people author with a11y in mind from the start
18:20:43 [sajkaj]
SuzanneTaylor: e.g. buiding a game
18:21:06 [SuzanneTaylor]
18:21:16 [Lauriat]
ack SuzanneTaylor
18:21:16 [Zakim]
SuzanneTaylor, you wanted to mention XR Subgroup's request for feedback on initial draft of a Method related to XR subtitles
18:21:33 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Is this ready for feedback from wider W3C?
18:21:48 [sajkaj]
SuzanneTaylor: Yes, please, noting Judy is planning to invite Captions CG
18:22:06 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Will followup
18:22:25 [sajkaj]
topic: Maturity Modeling
18:22:42 [sajkaj]
Fazio: Will have something ready for May
18:23:14 [sajkaj]
Fazio: Including "proof points" designed to help indicate an organization is doing x, y, etc
18:23:44 [sajkaj]
Fazio: Believe we have good structure with alternative methods
18:24:08 [sajkaj]
topic: Conformance Architecture Testing
18:25:05 [sajkaj]
Francis_Storr: Not content for publication, but testing what we do publish
18:25:11 [JF]
Testing based on this:
18:25:13 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Excellent to have more testers!
18:25:43 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Would like to touch base on how to present on the 29th most usefully
18:26:30 [sajkaj]
topic: Structured Content
18:27:12 [sajkaj]
jennifer_strickland: Are taking Errors group doc and structuring and match, trying to match priorities
18:27:31 [sajkaj]
jennifer_strickland: Now have ability to add self to github issues
18:27:44 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Nothing for May, right?
18:27:54 [sajkaj]
jennifer_strickland: Yes, we're still trying to grok what we're doing
18:28:11 [sajkaj]
jennifer_strickland: Wonders if a buddy for new groups would help the process run more smoothly
18:28:33 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Would like to be more available to you--thanks for stepping into something pretty messy
18:28:44 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Expect your issues will be August
18:28:53 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Has the group looked at github assigned issues
18:28:58 [sajkaj]
jennifer_strickland: Yes
18:29:43 [sajkaj]
jennifer_strickland: Notes the auto inform from github when I assign myself to an issue--should help
18:30:04 [sajkaj]
jeanne: And, if you like, invite me to a mtg
18:30:27 [sajkaj]
jennifer_strickland: Should our regular mtg go on a calendar somewhere?
18:31:43 [PeterKorn]
18:31:59 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Notes the new jennifer_strickland Notes draft from Peter and comment from Janina on social vs medical
18:32:07 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Perhaps by Wednesday?
18:32:15 [sajkaj]
jennifer_strickland: Better for August
18:32:24 [sajkaj]
jennifer_strickland: Notes I just started at Mitre
18:32:46 [sajkaj]
[congratulations all around to JS!}
18:32:59 [jennifer_strickland]
Thanks to all!
18:33:01 [sajkaj]
topic: Errors
18:33:33 [sajkaj]
dh: Expect to be good for May;
18:33:50 [sajkaj]
jeanne: In order to put it in as a method, need to have guideline and outcome
18:33:54 [sajkaj]
dh: Yes, we do have
18:34:02 [sajkaj]
jeanne: By Wednesday?
18:34:04 [sajkaj]
18:34:41 [sajkaj]
topic: Clear Words
18:34:58 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Notes group has been working on all assigned github; have 4 PR ready
18:35:11 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Another already scheduled for August because more complex
18:36:22 [Fazio]
I missed our last meeting
18:36:22 [jeanne]
zakim, take up next
18:36:22 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- review Options 1,2,3,5 -- taken up [from jeanne]
18:36:30 [Fazio]
but Im in functional needs
18:37:25 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Circling back to older options review to check we're consistent in how we're doing it now
18:37:26 [jeanne]
18:38:12 [sajkaj]
jeanne: We never did pros and cons when we started reviewing these--as we did with the later ones
18:38:23 [laura]
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18:38:35 [laura]
present+ Laura_Carlson
18:38:44 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Notes these feed into Suzanne's doc and we will cover on the 29th
18:38:54 [sajkaj]
TOPIC: Option #1
18:39:12 [sajkaj]
jeanne: FPWD plus original notions for S/g
18:39:31 [sajkaj]
jeanne: giving higher points for current AAA folded in
18:39:54 [sajkaj]
jeanne: some may have critical errors; but mainly giving higher points
18:40:07 [SuzanneTaylor]
q+ to ask whether the higher points might allow you to skip a level A guideline
18:40:31 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Recalls current bar is 3.5 in each overall category; but might it be too high?
18:40:59 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Became apparent 3.5 will be too high if we incorporate more of AAA
18:41:13 [Lauriat]
ack SuzanneTaylor
18:41:13 [Zakim]
SuzanneTaylor, you wanted to ask whether the higher points might allow you to skip a level A guideline
18:41:23 [JF]
Q= to ask if 3.5 is too high, or whether 4 is too low...
18:41:48 [sajkaj]
jennifer_strickland: Worries someone might take advantage by spending time on one of these AAA and not enough on more basic requirements
18:41:57 [Chuck]
q+ to ask what is the practical impact of higher points
18:42:03 [JF]
Q+ to ask if 3.5 is too high, or whether 4 is too low...
18:42:05 [sajkaj]
18:42:22 [Fazio]
Dreaming here: would be great to have WCAG score plus a Maturity score
18:43:29 [Fazio]
could be like Bronze has to also level 1 maturity or the maturity level is completely separate and doesn't effect medalling
18:43:55 [sajkaj]
jeanne: We may choose to change how we handle? At guideline level?
18:44:02 [sajkaj]
jennifer_strickland: Not following
18:44:11 [sajkaj]
jennifer_strickland: Sounds like a risk
18:44:49 [jennifer_strickland]
Those comments above are attributed to Suzanne
18:44:53 [Fazio]
I heard back from my ITU about whether metals make sense too
18:44:57 [Lauriat]
ack JF
18:44:57 [Zakim]
JF, you wanted to ask if 3.5 is too high, or whether 4 is too low...
18:45:14 [sajkaj]
jf: Suggests 4 is too low, not 3.5 too high
18:45:32 [sajkaj]
jeanne: say more
18:45:37 [Jemma]
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18:45:43 [sajkaj]
jf: Don't understand why 4 is highest
18:45:46 [Jemma]
regret+ Jemma
18:46:00 [sajkaj]
jf: how do we chose 4? Maybe we need more room between 0 and max
18:46:50 [JF]
18:46:51 [Fazio]
18:47:02 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Original reasoning was standardlickert scale
18:47:03 [Fazio]
18:47:35 [Chuck]
18:47:59 [jeanne]
ack ch
18:47:59 [Zakim]
Chuck, you wanted to ask what is the practical impact of higher points
18:48:06 [Lauriat]
18:48:24 [sajkaj]
Chuck: Also believe 0-4 was aligned with an adjectival mapping
18:48:38 [sajkaj]
Chuck: Also, don't know what "more points" would mean
18:49:01 [PeterKorn]
There is an infinite amount of space between 3.5 and 4. 3.51, 3.511, etc.
18:49:37 [JF]
+1 Peter, but we don't appear to be taking advantage of that
18:49:51 [Chuck]
janina: going back to AAA going into the medals, higher medals, I'm worried. In one instance I'm aware of, wearing my APA hat, at least one is a requirement more than a solution.
18:50:07 [Chuck]
janina: We have a gap analysis. None of the solutions will work across all environments. TTS.
18:50:09 [JF]
and, to me, more troubling is that 0 - 3.49999999999999999999999999999 = FAIL
18:50:23 [Chuck]
janina: Not always the case that AAA is worked in and not required.
18:50:40 [Lauriat]
ack sajkaj
18:51:00 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Noting that next draft will define that we round to first decimal only
18:51:10 [JF]
revise: 0 - 3.499 = FAIL
18:51:18 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Addressing Janina's concern
18:51:34 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Silver is most amorphous, probably; bronze should be snapshot in time
18:52:28 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Could include user and usability testing, user design considerations
18:53:02 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Want to avoid unintended consequences where testing goes to the end of the process
18:53:31 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Would be ways for organizations that wanted to do more to indicate over time how they're doing that
18:53:58 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Notes Maturity Model currently slated for G
18:54:26 [Fazio]
to that end our MM focus is on driving ICT accessibility
18:54:56 [Fazio]
18:54:56 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Need to make sure that sites continue to remain accessible; that's Maturity Model
18:55:13 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Note also that B required for S or G
18:55:23 [sajkaj]
jeanne: It's progressive
18:55:44 [Lauriat]
ack Fazio
18:56:04 [sajkaj]
Fazio: Hoping to drive dashboards and snapshot views of how orgs are doing on building in a11y
18:56:28 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Also small business?
18:56:38 [Chuck]
q+ to say there's some passion and enthusiasm for reviewing these
18:56:43 [sajkaj]
Fazio: Yes, absolutely; haven't worked out the socring yet, but absolutely
18:57:00 [jeanne]
skipping back to JF comment 3.44 would fail. Greater than 3.45 would round up to 3.5
18:57:07 [Lauriat]
ack Chuck
18:57:07 [Zakim]
Chuck, you wanted to say there's some passion and enthusiasm for reviewing these
18:57:27 [sajkaj]
Chuck: We do seem inspired to discuss these in greater detail, and that's good
18:57:58 [Chuck]
18:57:59 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Option 2 has some AAA in B
18:58:28 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Option 3 a variation on 2
18:58:45 [sajkaj]
jeanne: AT and/or UX testing
18:58:59 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Notes Option 5 very different
18:59:25 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Will take this up in another call, phps Tuesday and definitely Thursday
18:59:45 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Point based at outcome, not adjectival
18:59:56 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:59:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jeanne
19:00:15 [KimD]
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19:00:21 [Azlan]
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19:37:33 [sajkaj]
zakim, bye
19:37:34 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been jeanne, sajkaj, JF, ChrisLoiselle, Chuck, Azlan, KimD, bruce_bailey, Lauriat, jennifer_strickland, PeterKorn, Fazio,
19:37:34 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #silver
19:37:36 [Zakim]
... johnkirkwood, Francis_Storr, Wilco, Laura_Carlson
19:37:39 [sajkaj]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:37:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate sajkaj
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