13:20:49 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
13:20:49 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/04/22-i18n-irc
13:20:53 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #i18n
13:20:59 <addison> trackbot, prepare teleconference
13:21:02 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:21:05 <trackbot> Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
13:21:05 <trackbot> Date: 22 April 2021
13:21:17 <agendabot> Sorry, I did not find an agenda.
13:21:24 <addison> Chair: Addison Phillips
13:21:48 <addison> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2021Apr/0009.html
13:21:48 <agendabot> addison, sorry, could not get https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2021Apr/0009.html (code 400).
13:22:32 <addison> @Bert: see above
13:22:38 <addison> agenda+ Agenda
13:22:43 <addison> agenda+ Action Items
13:22:46 <addison> agenda+ Info Share
13:22:58 <addison> agenda+ RADAR and Active Work Review
13:23:14 <addison> agenda+ Scribing
13:23:29 <addison> agenda+ Web Payments
13:23:36 <addison> agenda+ Shadow DOM
13:23:41 <addison> agenda+ Page Numbering
13:23:45 <addison> agenda+ AOB?
13:23:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/22-i18n-minutes.html addison
13:24:49 <addison> regrets+ JcK
13:48:00 <addison> agenda+ Specdev error message text
13:55:00 <xfq> xfq has joined #i18n
13:56:54 <fsasaki> fsasaki has joined #i18n
13:59:46 <fsasaki> scribe: fsasaki
13:59:50 <addison> present+ Felix, Fuqiao, Addison
13:59:59 <r12a-again> r12a-again has joined #i18n
14:00:05 <addison> present+ Atsushi, Richard
14:01:25 <addison> agenda?
14:01:32 <fsasaki> regrets+ john
14:01:39 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 1
14:01:39 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda -- taken up [from addison]
14:02:09 <fsasaki> addison: added page numbering and pull request about spec dev
14:02:21 <fsasaki> xfq: encoding in epub
14:02:21 <addison> agenda+ epub encoding
14:02:35 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 2
14:02:35 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from addison]
14:02:44 <addison> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
14:03:21 <fsasaki> r12a: bidi keywords not yet
14:03:23 <addison> action-989?
14:03:23 <trackbot> action-989 -- Addison Phillips to Check tus and if necessary ping unicode folks about d145 normalization case fold ordering questions -- due 2021-01-21 -- OPEN
14:03:23 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/989
14:04:06 <fsasaki> addison: next utc meeting is coming up, hope to discuss the topic via that channel
14:04:18 <addison> action-996?
14:04:18 <trackbot> action-996 -- Addison Phillips to Follow up with mark davis on liaison status and google participation -- due 2021-02-25 -- OPEN
14:04:18 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/996
14:04:22 <addison> close action-996
14:04:22 <trackbot> Closed action-996.
14:04:33 <fsasaki> addison: 996 is stale
14:04:39 <addison> action-1015?
14:04:39 <trackbot> action-1015 -- Addison Phillips to Harvest useful text from geolocation 50 for specdev -- due 2021-04-15 -- OPEN
14:04:39 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1015
14:04:49 <fsasaki> addison: done
14:04:52 <addison> close action-1015
14:04:52 <trackbot> Closed action-1015.
14:05:08 <addison> action-1016?
14:05:08 <trackbot> action-1016 -- Richard Ishida to Fix stylesheets using logical properties etc. -- due 2021-04-22 -- OPEN
14:05:08 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1016
14:05:10 <fsasaki> r12a: done
14:05:10 <addison> close action-1016
14:05:11 <trackbot> Closed action-1016.
14:05:31 <fsasaki> r12a: one thing I did not change: "margin" and "for" values
14:06:16 <fsasaki> r12a: detailed logical properties work
14:06:25 <fsasaki> ... what does not work: margin with two or four values
14:06:46 <fsasaki> ... changing that in the stylesheet would mean: create four lines instead of one
14:07:16 <fsasaki> ... it would not break anything, but in our stylesheets we would have four lines
14:07:28 <fsasaki> addison: changing the shorthand from physical to logical
14:07:41 <fsasaki> r12a: that is the problem, still being discussed in CSS
14:07:53 <fsasaki> ... that is the outstanding item about logical properties
14:08:05 <xfq> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1282
14:08:34 <fsasaki> r12a: apart from shorthands and float and clear, all has been changed
14:08:47 <fsasaki> ... looked also at the way we handle language and fonts
14:09:05 <fsasaki> ... you will see a big difference of how we handle fonts now in our articles
14:10:02 <fsasaki> ... I went through all fonts we are using in our articles
14:10:11 <fsasaki> ... made  a checklist what languages they support
14:10:20 <fsasaki> ... then developed fallback strategies
14:10:45 <fsasaki> ... stylesheets now say: use railway for ..., then for language ... another font
14:11:04 <fsasaki> ... if you have some ideas how to improve this, let me know
14:11:16 <fsasaki> action-1017?
14:11:16 <trackbot> action-1017 -- Addison Phillips to Send wpwg list of specs that implement lang/dir -- due 2021-04-22 -- OPEN
14:11:16 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1017
14:11:22 <fsasaki> addison: pending
14:11:29 <addison> action-1018?
14:11:29 <trackbot> action-1018 -- Addison Phillips to Establish rotating scribe list and add it to the agenda -- due 2021-04-22 -- OPEN
14:11:29 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1018
14:11:36 <fsasaki> addison: done
14:11:43 <addison> close action-1018
14:11:44 <trackbot> Closed action-1018.
14:11:51 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 3
14:11:51 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from addison]
14:12:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/22-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:12:24 <r12a-again> https://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/questions/qa-html-dir.en
14:12:52 <fsasaki> r12a: rewrite of article on structural markup and rtl text
14:13:12 <fsasaki> ... previous version had a lot of stuff saying "there is this new stuff ..."
14:13:22 <fsasaki> ... now many of these things just work
14:13:41 <fsasaki> ... new article does not mention things like "problem with IE" etc. anymore
14:13:59 <fsasaki> ... added section on how to work with forms
14:14:41 <fsasaki> ... still work in progress, if you have feeback, let me know
14:14:54 <fsasaki> ... article also implements the new look and feel
14:15:15 <fsasaki> ... article has a related article about inline markp and bidi text
14:15:16 <addison> https://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/questions/qa-html-dir.en
14:15:26 <r12a-again> https://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/articles/inline-bidi-markup/index.en.html
14:16:06 <fsasaki> r12a: this is a quite long article, have shortened it a lot
14:16:35 <fsasaki> ... many parts are worked examples, put the stuff into a separate document
14:17:03 <fsasaki> ... no uploaded version yet, will show that  in due course
14:17:25 <fsasaki> ... hopening that we have a much more concise explanation how to work with bidi
14:18:47 <fsasaki> felix: great timing for me to use this in my i18n lecture
14:18:59 <fsasaki> r12a: will upload the inline doc soon and let you know
14:19:10 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 4
14:19:10 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- RADAR and Active Work Review -- taken up [from addison]
14:19:23 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1
14:19:51 <fsasaki> addison: no new requests, it seems
14:20:38 <fsasaki> r12a to work on logical properties
14:21:31 <addison> agenda?
14:21:45 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 5
14:21:45 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Scribing -- taken up [from addison]
14:21:58 <fsasaki> addison: established rotation in agenda
14:22:36 <fsasaki> ... any objection in being included in rotation? John already did
14:22:55 <fsasaki> r12a: objecting too, for various reasons
14:23:35 <fsasaki> ... but I understand that this makes the scribe list much smaller
14:25:12 <fsasaki> ... doing recording and then editing minutes would be too time consuming
14:26:45 <fsasaki> addison: so we do a rotation, or is there anybody who would do this more regular?
14:27:17 <fsasaki> ... so I will reduce rotation to people who are willing to scribe
14:27:59 <addison> agenda?
14:28:54 <fsasaki> addison: anything people want to discuss on webpayments this week?
14:29:04 <fsasaki> nothing it seems
14:29:12 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 10
14:29:12 <Zakim> agendum 10 -- Specdev error message text -- taken up [from addison]
14:29:30 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/55
14:30:15 <fsasaki> addison: included stuff I got from geolocation
14:30:26 <fsasaki> ... moved existing text round a bit, comments welcome
14:30:45 <addison> https://aphillips.github.io/bp-i18n-specdev/#localization
14:31:02 <xfq_> xfq_ has joined #i18n
14:31:15 <addison> agenda?
14:31:25 <fsasaki> addison: please provide comments now or to the PR
14:31:49 <fsasaki> r12a: still not sure about our term "natural language"
14:31:59 <fsasaki> ... should change it to "human readable text" or "user directed text"
14:32:09 <fsasaki> ... or "@@@ oriented"
14:32:31 <fsasaki> addison: you are talking about use of "natural language" in sec. 9.6 and 9.6.1?
14:32:34 <fsasaki> r12a: yes
14:32:43 <fsasaki> addison: didn't we have a defintion in charmod?
14:33:16 <fsasaki> r12a: yes, but now we have a clearer understanding about the topic
14:33:24 <addison> http://aphillips.github.io/charmod-norm/#terminology
14:34:10 <fsasaki> r12a: the label "natural language" does not quite describe the aspect we mean
14:34:35 <fsasaki> addison: do we need to revise terminology in charmod?
14:34:38 <fsasaki> r12a: I think so
14:34:47 <fsasaki> addison: do we pull that into spec dev?
14:35:36 <fsasaki> r12a: could do
14:35:45 <fsasaki> felix: ltli also has a definition of "natural language"
14:35:55 <addison> https://w3c.github.io/ltli/#language-terminology
14:35:59 <fsasaki> addison: that definition is much closer to what richard is talking about
14:36:12 <fsasaki> .. that is the BCP 47 definition
14:36:51 <fsasaki> r12a: another reason for changing charmod, because it conflicts with the definition in LTLI
14:37:27 <fsasaki> addison: todos: fix terminology in spec dev, examine charmod & do edits, ensure that specdev itself is consistent, and look at string meta
14:37:52 <fsasaki> action: addison to fix terminology on natural language in spec dev
14:37:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1019 - Fix terminology on natural language in spec dev [on Addison Phillips - due 2021-04-29].
14:38:09 <fsasaki> action: addison to examine charmod related to natural language & do edits
14:38:10 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1020 - Examine charmod related to natural language & do edits [on Addison Phillips - due 2021-04-29].
14:38:29 <fsasaki> action: addison to ensupre that specdev itself is consistent with regards to natural language
14:38:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1021 - Ensupre that specdev itself is consistent with regards to natural language [on Addison Phillips - due 2021-04-29].
14:38:37 <fsasaki> action: richard to look at string meta
14:38:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1022 - Look at string meta [on Richard Ishida - due 2021-04-29].
14:39:39 <addison> agenda?
14:39:56 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 11
14:39:56 <Zakim> agendum 11 -- epub encoding -- taken up [from addison]
14:40:09 <xfq_> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1628
14:40:36 <fsasaki> xfq: they mention css files and also xml files  and media type that must be utf-8 or utf-16
14:40:46 <fsasaki> ... I asked "why do you mention utf-16?"
14:41:04 <fsasaki> .. they did not find the reason, has been in the spec for a long time
14:41:18 <fsasaki> ... they are concerned now about compatibility
14:41:40 <fsasaki> .. I proposed to add that utf-16 is deprecated, but still allowed for CSS and XML
14:41:56 <fsasaki> ... for the media type, it is still utf-8 / utf-16
14:42:17 <fsasaki> addison: that can be resolved with MUST and SHOULD
14:42:40 <fsasaki> xfq: eBook publishers are very concerned if their book is valid
14:43:10 <fsasaki> addison: sure. we could say: it MUST be in one of the two, and it SHOULD be utf-8
14:43:48 <fsasaki> discussion of what is stronger: "deprecated" or "SHOULD"
14:44:08 <fsasaki> addison: OK with "deprecated"
14:44:17 <fsasaki> xfq: fine by me too
14:44:18 <fsasaki> +1
14:44:22 <atsushi> +1
14:44:25 <fsasaki> r12a: ok
14:44:36 <addison> agenda?
14:44:45 <fsasaki> ... xfq, will you let them know that we are ok with their resolution?
14:44:47 <fsasaki> xfq: sure
14:45:15 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 8
14:45:15 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- Page Numbering -- taken up [from addison]
14:45:30 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1505
14:46:29 <fsasaki> addison: made comments, r12a was involved in discussion too
14:47:01 <fsasaki> r12a: do they need an ID for each page, so that they can point to it?
14:47:03 <fsasaki> addison: yes
14:47:44 <fsasaki> r12a: problem is how to point to a page if there are e.g. "two page 3"? Which digit you used?
14:48:20 <fsasaki> addison: real page number in physical manifestation opposed to pages changing based on screen size etc.
14:48:52 <fsasaki> r12a: look at page xyz means = you need to use the same type of digits
14:49:08 <fsasaki> addison: yes, and there are various schemes to number pages
14:49:20 <fsasaki> ... you cannot use them together in the same book
14:49:34 <fsasaki> ... question is: does that include native digits? yes
14:50:10 <stpeter> stpeter has joined #i18n
14:53:14 <fsasaki> addison: can the numbers be non ascii digits? sure
14:53:29 <fsasaki> ... there are many other schemes you can use for numbering
14:54:01 <fsasaki> r12a: need to read this in more detail
14:54:19 <fsasaki> ... I worry that they do not take into account section based numbering
14:54:30 <fsasaki> ... and that the same number is used several times in the document
14:54:40 <fsasaki> ... because the fragment IDs need to be unique
14:54:59 <fsasaki> addison: they need to figure out a scheme to make the strings unique
14:55:57 <fsasaki> r12a: they have a fragment id and the content of the element, which they would show the user
14:56:16 <fsasaki> ... question is how to generate a fragment id from what they show to the user, if that is what they are doing?
14:56:54 <fsasaki> addison: on some level the tokens do not matter, they are just IDs
14:57:14 <fsasaki> ... they will be case sensitve, because upper and lower case page numbering schemes exist
14:57:35 <fsasaki> ... charmod norm provides guidance on how to make the tokens unique
14:58:59 <fsasaki> suggestion to carry on the discussion in the issue
14:59:02 <addison> agenda?
14:59:31 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 7
14:59:31 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- Shadow DOM -- taken up [from addison]
15:00:35 <addison> action: addison: ping fantasai about shadow dom
15:00:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1023 - Ping fantasai about shadow dom [on Addison Phillips - due 2021-04-29].
15:00:53 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 9
15:00:53 <Zakim> agendum 9 -- AOB? -- taken up [from addison]
15:01:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/22-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:01:34 <addison> rrsagent, bye
15:01:34 <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2021/04/22-i18n-actions.rdf :
15:01:34 <RRSAgent> ACTION: addison to fix terminology on natural language in spec dev [1]
15:01:34 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2021/04/22-i18n-irc#T14-37-52
15:01:34 <RRSAgent> ACTION: addison to examine charmod related to natural language & do edits [2]
15:01:34 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2021/04/22-i18n-irc#T14-38-09
15:01:34 <RRSAgent> ACTION: addison to ensupre that specdev itself is consistent with regards to natural language [3]
15:01:34 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2021/04/22-i18n-irc#T14-38-29
15:01:34 <RRSAgent> ACTION: richard to look at string meta [4]
15:01:34 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2021/04/22-i18n-irc#T14-38-37
15:01:34 <RRSAgent> ACTION: addison: ping fantasai about shadow dom [5]
15:01:34 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2021/04/22-i18n-irc#T15-00-35