IRC log of wot-td on 2021-04-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:04:40 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wot-td
14:04:40 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/04/21-wot-td-irc
14:04:48 [kaz]
Meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF
14:06:47 [sebastian]
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14:08:56 [kaz]
present+ Kaz_Ashimura(IRC), Sebastian_Kaebisch, Cristiano_Aguzzi, Daniel_Peintner, Ege_Korkan, Jan_Romann, Michael_Koster, Michael_McCool
14:09:47 [jkrhb]
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14:10:24 [sebastian]
topic: minutes check from last week
14:12:31 [kaz]
i/minutes/scribenick: sebastian/
14:12:58 [kaz]
-> https://www.w3.org/2021/04/14-wot-td-minutes.html April-14
14:13:36 [mjk]
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14:15:51 [kaz]
present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima
14:17:27 [sebastian]
any objections befor publication the minutes?
14:17:32 [sebastian]
no
14:19:03 [sebastian]
Sebastian explains about the W3C patent policy
14:19:22 [kaz]
i/Seba/topic: Guests/
14:19:27 [sebastian]
Jan introduces himself
14:19:37 [sebastian]
Jan is from University of Bremen
14:19:44 [kaz]
i|Jan|-> https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy-20200915/ W3C Patent Policy|
14:19:57 [sebastian]
working in the chair of Carsten Bormann
14:20:43 [sebastian]
topic: publication plans
14:22:00 [sebastian]
plan is to have everything ready until May 5
14:22:18 [kaz]
present+ Jack_Dickinson
14:22:21 [sebastian]
get resolution for publication on May 19
14:23:32 [sebastian]
topic: WoT Binding
14:24:24 [sebastian]
ege: shows an issue from the binding
14:24:25 [sebastian]
https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/issues/86
14:26:04 [Ege]
https://www.hivemq.com/blog/mqtt5-essentials-part9-request-response-pattern/
14:26:09 [Ege]
https://github.com/eclipse/paho.mqtt.python/blob/master/examples/client_rpc_math.py
14:26:17 [Ege]
http://www.steves-internet-guide.com/mqttv5-request-response/
14:26:27 [Ege]
https://www.npmjs.com/package/mqtt
14:29:03 [sebastian]
ege: explains some example about request -response with MQTTv5
14:30:09 [sebastian]
Jan reports some experiences with zigbee2mqtt
14:32:20 [sebastian]
Ege: proposal is to introduce subprotocl: mqv:requestResponse
14:33:23 [sebastian]
this would work with MQTTv5
14:33:38 [McCool]
(heavy echo, if not speaking pls mute)
14:34:09 [sebastian]
for MQTTv3.1.1 "mqv:responseTopic": "<topicPath>"
14:36:17 [sebastian]
Cristiano: shall we use a different field such as version?
14:38:40 [mjk]
q?
14:38:46 [mjk]
q+
14:39:41 [sebastian]
there was the discussion to use properties for the retain feature of MQTT
14:40:58 [cris]
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14:41:32 [sebastian]
MJK: in SDF we have decided native subscription model
14:44:13 [jkrhb]
q?
14:44:44 [cris]
q+
14:45:03 [jkrhb]
q+
14:45:28 [sebastian]
ack m
14:46:48 [sebastian]
sebastian: there was a presentation from the MQTTv5 authors and mentioned that you should not really use MQTT for req / res.
14:48:19 [sebastian]
MJK: we should not force people implement req / res with events
14:48:30 [mjk]
ack mjk
14:49:06 [sebastian]
cris agrees
14:49:35 [sebastian]
ack c
14:49:40 [jkrhb]
q-
14:52:32 [sebastian]
sebastian: retain flag in the TD is just a hint
14:53:52 [kaz]
q?
14:56:52 [kaz]
rrsagent, make log public
14:56:56 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:56:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/21-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:57:29 [cris]
q+
14:59:00 [sebastian]
cris: the versioning problem is also related to other protocols
14:59:39 [sebastian]
ege: we can use mqv:version
15:00:01 [sebastian]
cris: we can do it more in a generic way
15:00:42 [mjk]
I need to drop for the ASDF interim meeting
15:00:56 [Ege]
https://www.w3.org/TR/HTTP-in-RDF10/#httpVersionProperty
15:03:44 [Ege]
http://www.eclipse.org/paho/index.php?page=downloads.php
15:03:58 [sebastian]
ege: shall we support the v5 feature?
15:04:31 [sebastian]
sebastian: depends how v5 is adopted
15:05:01 [sebastian]
ege: no many broker have implemented it
15:06:35 [kaz]
present- Kaz_Ashimura(IRC)
15:06:43 [kaz]
present+ Kaz_Ashimura
15:06:50 [kaz]
q?
15:06:57 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:06:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/21-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:07:04 [kaz]
Chair: Sebastian
15:07:06 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:07:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/21-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:11:48 [dape]
ack cris
15:12:29 [sebastian]
proposal would be to stay with the MQTTv3.1.1 approache which does not come with req./res.
15:16:21 [cris]
+1 for this direction
15:18:35 [kaz]
scribenick: kaz
15:19:08 [kaz]
topic: Defer issue to TD 2.0
15:19:30 [kaz]
sk: please look at the issues labeled with "2.0"
15:19:38 [kaz]
-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Defer+to+TD+2.0%22 2.0 issues
15:19:41 [kaz]
topic: PRs
15:20:17 [kaz]
subtopic: PR 1086
15:20:28 [kaz]
-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1086 PR 1086 - Add section to define Canonical serialization
15:20:35 [kaz]
mm: (describes the PR)
15:20:59 [kaz]
... would propose we merge this as the basis of further discussion
15:21:29 [kaz]
... removed duplicated rules, and it's much simpler now
15:22:03 [kaz]
-> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/mmccool/wot-thing-description/pull/1086.html preview
15:22:56 [kaz]
sk: (goes through the preview for section "6.5 Canonicalization")
15:23:15 [kaz]
mm: maybe there are some mistakes there
15:23:19 [kaz]
... but can fix them
15:23:54 [kaz]
... currently the entries are put based on the alphabetic order
15:24:23 [kaz]
... I added an assertion on prefix to be maintained
15:24:36 [kaz]
... any processor needs to handle that
15:25:09 [kaz]
sk: theoretically, we can use any kind of prefixes
15:25:12 [kaz]
mm: right
15:25:30 [kaz]
q+
15:25:32 [dape]
q+
15:25:57 [kaz]
ack d
15:26:15 [kaz]
dp: replacing geo, etc. to full notation?
15:26:29 [kaz]
mm: JSON doesn't handle prefixes
15:26:37 [kaz]
... so we need to use some library
15:27:11 [kaz]
... canonicalizer handles prefixes as string rather than object
15:27:50 [kaz]
kaz: why don't we add an Editor's note about those possible questions and then merge this PR itself?
15:28:24 [kaz]
mm: either is fine, adding an Editor's note or adding small edits
15:28:24 [kaz]
... before merging
15:28:47 [kaz]
... URLs must not be modified
15:29:11 [kaz]
sk: (adds several comments to PR 1086)
15:29:15 [kaz]
ack k
15:29:41 [kaz]
... fix typos, add assertion that a TD processor must not modify the URLs
15:30:02 [kaz]
... McCool adds those changes and then merge the PR
15:31:22 [cris]
q+
15:31:34 [kaz]
... can you remove the commented out part as well?
15:31:36 [kaz]
mm: can do
15:31:49 [kaz]
ca: thinking about prefixes
15:32:18 [kaz]
... we can say the most common practices is removing the prefix
15:32:41 [kaz]
mm: right now the geolocation proposal to be fixed
15:32:56 [kaz]
... with certain prefixes to make the processing easier
15:33:16 [kaz]
... in theory, JSON processor need to see some table for the processing
15:33:27 [kaz]
... can depend on prefixes from protocols
15:33:56 [kaz]
ca: how/which document to fix it?
15:34:13 [kaz]
mm: canonicalization needs to be fixed
15:34:35 [kaz]
... certain fix for prefixes needed
15:34:56 [kaz]
sk: so please apply the fixes and then let's merge the PR
15:34:57 [kaz]
mm: ok
15:35:23 [kaz]
subtopic: PR 1085
15:35:40 [kaz]
-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1085 PR 1085 - WIP: Add Validation Section
15:35:48 [kaz]
mm: this is related to validation
15:36:14 [kaz]
... would focus on the normative spec first
15:36:27 [kaz]
... not ready right now
15:36:33 [kaz]
... but would like to get feedback
15:36:54 [kaz]
subtopic: PR 1090
15:37:05 [kaz]
-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1090 PR 1090 - init tmRef
15:37:15 [kaz]
sk: comments by Jan there
15:37:38 [kaz]
... we should not be more relaxing
15:37:52 [kaz]
... so can be more restricted
15:38:10 [kaz]
-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1090 changes
15:38:19 [kaz]
sk: (goes through the changes)
15:39:06 [kaz]
... we can copy definitions to new ones
15:39:29 [kaz]
... and get new id:value pare
15:39:32 [kaz]
s/pare/pair/
15:39:53 [kaz]
... the semantic meanings should be the same
15:40:19 [kaz]
... introduced new examples to provide better understanding
15:40:53 [kaz]
... overrides the maximum
15:41:26 [kaz]
-> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1090.html preview
15:41:33 [kaz]
sk: (goes through the preview)
15:42:05 [kaz]
-> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1090.html#td-model-example-smart-lamp-control specifically the example 47
15:42:41 [kaz]
jr: is having maximum as 100 too restrictive?
15:43:03 [kaz]
sk: (shows the ASDF draft)
15:43:57 [cris]
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15:44:14 [kaz]
-> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-asdf-sdf-05 SDF draft
15:45:09 [kaz]
jr: what about TM extending another TM?
15:45:13 [kaz]
... is that possible?
15:46:25 [kaz]
sk: some example there (around lin 5196 from the HTML code)
15:46:49 [kaz]
... would like to suggest we merge this PR 1090 as the basis for the further discussion
15:46:53 [kaz]
... any objections?
15:46:55 [kaz]
(none)
15:47:13 [kaz]
(and merged)
15:47:33 [kaz]
subtopic: PR 1092
15:47:49 [kaz]
-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1092 PR 1092 - rename required to tmRequired + top level definition
15:48:05 [kaz]
sk: renaming needed
15:48:24 [kaz]
... also need assertions for validation
15:48:37 [kaz]
mm: playground should be also updated
15:48:50 [kaz]
ek: I should include this change
15:49:13 [kaz]
mm: will apply the changes
15:49:48 [kaz]
subtopic: PR 1085
15:50:03 [kaz]
-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1085 PR 1085 - WIP: Add Validation Section
15:50:48 [kaz]
s/subtopic: PR 1085//
15:50:59 [kaz]
sk: quickly skim PR 1085
15:51:06 [kaz]
... may I merge PR 1092 now?
15:52:18 [kaz]
mm: just wondering which the current spec use "ref" or "reference"
15:52:25 [kaz]
sk: "ref"
15:52:36 [kaz]
... any objections to merge PR 1092?
15:52:37 [kaz]
(none)
15:52:40 [kaz]
(and merged)
15:53:02 [kaz]
subtopic: PR 1095
15:53:04 [dape]
q+
15:53:12 [kaz]
-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1095 PR 1095 - Two step generation of the TD from a TM
15:53:31 [kaz]
ca: not sure if all the processors need to follow these two steps, though
15:53:36 [kaz]
ack c
15:53:55 [kaz]
sk: note that you just provide the template.html
15:54:03 [kaz]
... but should provide index.html as well
15:54:15 [kaz]
ca: ok
15:55:25 [kaz]
-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1047 related issue 1047 - Two step generation of the TD from a TM should be clear
15:55:57 [kaz]
sk: a bit concerned since this PR 1095 is very big
15:56:09 [kaz]
... should be split into several smaller PRs?
15:56:27 [kaz]
mm: multiple smaller PRs would be better to handle
15:56:57 [kaz]
... note that every assertion must use the RFC2119 keywords
15:57:01 [kaz]
q?
15:57:04 [kaz]
ack d
15:57:14 [kaz]
dp: some typo there
15:57:47 [kaz]
... "tmRequired" should be "tm:Required"
15:57:51 [kaz]
ca: right
15:58:31 [kaz]
jr: is partial TD introduced yet?
15:58:35 [kaz]
sk: good question
15:59:10 [kaz]
... there Terminology section should have the definition
15:59:32 [kaz]
dp: the next publication version should include it (though the current published version doesn't)
16:00:09 [cris]
https://w3c.github.io/wot-architecture/#dfn-partial-td
16:00:36 [kaz]
s/https/-> https/
16:00:50 [kaz]
s/partial-td/partial-td "Partial TD" definition
16:01:06 [kaz]
sk: need to have a look
16:02:18 [kaz]
... the definition is valid within the TD draft (at the moment)
16:02:37 [kaz]
s/within/for/
16:03:12 [kaz]
... maybe it would be better where the definition is done (=within the WoT Architecture spec)
16:03:34 [kaz]
kaz: note we're out of time
16:03:44 [kaz]
sk: let's continue the discussion next week then
16:03:54 [kaz]
... thanks a lot for your contributions
16:04:02 [kaz]
... and thanks for your participation, Jan!
16:04:08 [kaz]
jr: no problem
16:04:10 [kaz]
[adjourned]
16:04:14 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:04:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/21-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
18:25:40 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #wot-td