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12:59:25 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:59:26 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), wendyreid
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13:00:13 <wendyreid> meeting: Fixed Layout Accessibility TF April 20, 2021
13:00:17 <wendyreid> Date: 2021-04-20
13:00:23 <wendyreid> chair: wendyreid
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13:00:27 <wendyreid> present+
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13:00:43 <MattChan_> present+
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13:02:03 <dkaplan3> present+
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13:02:51 <duga> present+
13:03:29 <MattChan_> scribe+
13:04:02 <MattChan_> wendyreid: we had homework from last week, just going through the list
13:04:07 <MattChan_> ... review of Daisy KB
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13:04:44 <CharlesL> present+
13:04:45 <MattChan_> ken: I spent a few hours looking through Daisy KB FXL documentation
13:05:01 <MattChan_> ... spotted a few things that I thought were out of date/that I thought were wrong
13:05:15 <MattChan_> ... I've done a write up on DropBox paper
13:05:17 <CircularKen> https://paper.dropbox.com/doc/Links-to-DAISY-KB-commented-docs--BJOThpgrG5rvKrRjYQhjwFVOAg-b1DlgnppIzzBlph0z2b21
13:05:40 <gpellegrino> present+
13:05:43 <MattChan_> ... this is like an index page, with comments
13:05:55 <MattChan_> ... I'll just go through them now
13:06:16 <MattChan_> ... each entry is a link to the KB itself
13:06:25 <MattChan_> ... (feel free to add to my comments)
13:06:50 <MattChan_> ... KB0 is a naming consistency issue
13:07:40 <MattChan_> ... KB1 seems to be written from particular point of view ("are commonly" vs "may be")
13:07:53 <MattChan_> ... I would add paragraph about benefits of fxl format
13:08:25 <duga> q+
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13:08:58 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:09:18 <MattChan_> ... reference to "where epub consists of primarily FXL..." is that referring to something deprecated?
13:09:41 <MattChan_> duga: even without multiple renditions you can put pre-paginated/fixed layout pages in a reflow epub
13:09:57 <MattChan_> ... no real support for this in the wild
13:10:17 <MattChan_> ... by the way, are we taking over the Daisy KB? Or is this just recommendations?
13:10:30 <MattChan_> wendyreid: we're making recommendations, and mgarrish was here last week and in agreement
13:10:57 <MattChan_> CircularKen: feel free to add to my comments clarifying these sorts of points
13:11:43 <MattChan_> ... re. WCAG AA conformance, add resize text
13:12:14 <MattChan_> ... KB2 more references to fxl within reflow epub
13:12:37 <MattChan_> ... and found a broken link in the KB2 document
13:13:02 <MattChan_> ... recommend moving a summary paragraph up to the top of the document
13:13:24 <gpellegrino> q+
13:13:34 <MattChan_> ... KB3 re. images in spine, this is not really something i've seen
13:13:34 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:13:44 <MattChan_> gpellegrino: i've seen it in manga created from PDFs
13:13:56 <MattChan_> ... this was in early days of FXL
13:14:16 <MattChan_> CircularKen: so we might talk about this in best practices
13:14:32 <MattChan_> ... it seems that whoever wrote this thought of manga as the main use of FXL
13:15:11 <MattChan_> gpellegrino: You can do it, but you have to have a fallback (an XHTML)
13:15:35 <MattChan_> wendyreid: I feel like we should just steer people away from this
13:16:02 <MattChan_> CircularKen: maybe make it more clear at top of document that it is not a good way to do it, and is largely unsupported
13:16:28 <MattChan_> ... KB4 found a typo
13:16:47 <MattChan_> ... clarification that since you can embed raster img in SVG, there are some limits to scalability
13:17:04 <MattChan_> ... KB5 is WCAG conformance table
13:17:34 <MattChan_> ... I would add note that nature of FXL makes it impossible to achieve WCAG AA or higher
13:18:21 <MattChan_> ... and recommend, again, loosening language re. image-based FXL to cover uses other than manga-type publications
13:19:48 <MattChan_> ... clarifications re. the fact that in FXLs contrast and font choice can be issues
13:20:46 <MattChan_> ... document suggests that in some FXLs allow users to change appearance of text. This seems uncommon.
13:21:05 <MattChan_> duga: Some RS may allow users to customize line spacing
13:21:28 <MattChan_> ... there's no rule against it, but nobody does it
13:21:31 <gpellegrino> q+
13:21:48 <gpellegrino> q-
13:22:10 <MattChan_> CircularKen: that might surprise some authors of FXL, who might not expect that in their publications
13:22:47 <gpellegrino> q+
13:23:01 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:23:08 <MattChan_> ... KB6 seems to suggest that the problem is finding a place to put the image descriptions, but often image descriptions are not visual?
13:23:25 <MattChan_> gpellegrino: I think that is in reference to long descriptions, not specifically alt-text
13:24:27 <MattChan_> CircularKen: well then it could simply be a link out to a different page? I still think the language in the KB could be updated
13:25:06 <MattChan_> ... continuing, animations have long been supported in FXL
13:25:27 <MattChan_> ... has anyone seen FXLs with extended image descriptions? How was it done?
13:25:35 <MattChan_> wendyreid: i've seen it as an interactive element
13:25:44 <MattChan_> ... tapping an arrow under the image would open an overlay
13:25:52 <MattChan_> ... but only in highly interactive content
13:26:20 <MattChan_> ... same way definitions and videos were implemented (tap to reveal pop-up)
13:27:22 <MattChan_> CircularKen: Q re. Daisy KB generally. How to describe images that are spreads, or montages (i.e. combinations of smaller images)
13:27:31 <MattChan_> ... i've opened a github issue about this
13:27:54 <CircularKen> https://github.com/daisy/kb/issues/35
13:28:22 <MattChan_> ... i think summarizing that issue in the KB would be useful
13:28:41 <MattChan_> ... KB7, no suggested changes
13:29:05 <CircularKen> https://paper.dropbox.com/doc/Suggestions-for-additional-DAISY-KB-articles--BJOEvLh5aCOg9bXd3Rhz3YGzAg-MhUnnl1PcYVEMBVmeaC6A
13:29:12 <MattChan_> ... i've got suggestions for where there are currently gaps
13:29:17 <MattChan_> ... for additional articles
13:29:40 <Rachel_O> q+
13:29:44 <MattChan_> ... one for structure (e.g. TOC)
13:30:03 <MattChan_> ... one for Tables
13:30:08 <MattChan_> ... one for interaction
13:30:14 <wendyreid> ack Rachel_O
13:30:26 <MattChan_> ... maybe one for comparison between FXL and PDFs?
13:30:42 <MattChan_> Rachel_O: re. descriptions for spreads
13:30:53 <CharlesL> q+
13:31:31 <MattChan_> ... some resources recommend that the entire image description appear all on the first half, with the second half simply containing text referring back to the first half
13:32:01 <MattChan_> ... a different way is to split the description over the composite parts of the spread (works well for children's books)
13:32:40 <MattChan_> ... for montages and complex images, recommendation is to provide a general layout of the image, and then drill down and describe each part
13:32:45 <duga> q+
13:33:02 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:33:10 <MattChan_> ... and keep in mind that not all parts of such an image need to be describe in the same level of detail
13:33:29 <MattChan_> CharlesL: alt-text is great, but that is only available via AT
13:33:44 <MattChan_> ... how do we describe these images to people with, for example, cognitive disabilities?
13:33:59 <MattChan_> ... we have to think about not just screen-readers
13:34:16 <MattChan_> ... also, when alt-text gets very long, that's a problem for editing
13:34:28 <MattChan_> ... no support for semantic markup within alt-text
13:34:35 <MattChan_> ... that's why extended desc are good
13:35:06 <MattChan_> ... the other best practice should probably be to make the image itself clickable (e.g. if you have no space to add a click here link)
13:35:20 <CircularKen> q+
13:35:30 <MattChan_> ... that would then bring up HTML rendered text equivalent of the image
13:35:37 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:35:52 <MattChan_> duga: re. splitting images into pieces for describing complex images
13:36:02 <MattChan_> ... is this discussed in the KB?
13:36:22 <MattChan_> CircularKen: its not in the KB, but its in the daisy github issue (above)
13:36:52 <MattChan_> duga: about alt-text, its not necessarily true that only screen readers access info n alt-text or ARIA label
13:37:13 <MattChan_> ... we've extracted ARIA labels to do other things, e.g. getting definitions, highlighting words
13:37:33 <MattChan_> ... we could recommend that RS do other things with this sort of data that is already available
13:37:54 <MattChan_> wendyreid: we don't need to get too deep into alt-text, this is fairly well understood already
13:37:55 <wendyreid> ack CircularKen
13:38:12 <MattChan_> ... but extended desc has an UI component which may be more of an issue for FXL
13:38:25 <CharlesL> q+
13:38:36 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:38:47 <MattChan_> CircularKen: so, would that sort of desc be something authored?
13:39:06 <MattChan_> CharlesL: i thought so, yes. And then it would be up to the RS how to access that information
13:39:28 <MattChan_> ... but the idea of the RS adding something on top of the book is like what we are doing with Image Share
13:39:37 <MattChan_> ... but that requires plug-ins
13:40:05 <MattChan_> wendyreid: this is great
13:40:18 <MattChan_> ... and because this is hosted in github we can probably directly help with the edits as well
13:40:19 <CharlesL> +1 great job Ken!
13:41:05 <MattChan_> wendyreid: what kind of content uses FXL? Common use-cases for FXL.
13:41:11 <MattChan_> ... talked to Rachel_O about this
13:42:02 <MattChan_> Rachel_O: started working on this. I'm waiting on BNC. Wanted to reach out to eBOUND.
13:42:15 <MattChan_> ... I have a list of types of books which commonly use FXL
13:42:16 <duga> q+
13:42:27 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:42:31 <MattChan_> ... hoping to get actual numbers
13:43:06 <MattChan_> duga: its a hard question. Are we asking who sorts of books are MADE using FXL? Or what FXL books are actually read?
13:43:17 <MattChan_> ... if read, then its going to be mostly manga
13:43:23 <CharlesL> q+
13:43:28 <MattChan_> ... might not be worth asking 2nd question
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13:44:13 <MattChan_> Rachel_O: in terms of what is being made, then in Canada its probably going to be comics, children's books, maybe textbooks, and anything else image heavy
13:44:22 <MattChan_> ... would be nice to get data from distributors
13:44:29 <MattChan_> duga: yes, sales would be very useful
13:44:44 <CircularKen> q+
13:44:50 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:45:15 <MattChan_> CharlesL: we're working on a set of guidelines for libraries and bookstores to show the a11y metadata in books
13:45:38 <duga> q+
13:45:40 <MattChan_> ... i'm wondering if we should also recommend that they give an additional warning where the book is FXL
13:45:49 <dkaplan31> q+
13:45:50 <wendyreid> ack CircularKen
13:46:08 <MattChan_> CircularKen: i wonder whether its worth mentioning the interactive aspect of FXL?
13:46:32 <duga> q-
13:46:36 <MattChan_> ... its under used, not many publishers use it
13:46:59 <MattChan_> ... some educational publishers want this sort of interactivity
13:47:12 <wendyreid> ack dkaplan31
13:47:16 <wendyreid> ack dkaplan
13:47:56 <CharlesL> q+
13:48:10 <MattChan_> dkaplan31: i don't see anything in Schema metadata specifically about FXL
13:48:36 <MattChan_> ... should we recommend putting something about FXL in a free-text section of the Schema?
13:48:40 <duga> q+
13:48:50 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:48:59 <MattChan_> ... if the Schema vocabs are not set in stone, maybe recommend that something be added to identify FXL?
13:49:20 <MattChan_> CharlesL: yes, we can add values to vocab
13:49:41 <MattChan_> ... but what I was referring to was using what is already in the metadata to identify FXL
13:50:15 <MattChan_> ... re. interactive. Has anyone seen comics where the reader zooms into the publication, and allows you to browse panel by panel?
13:50:36 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:50:45 <MattChan_> wendyreid: yes, comicsology (Amazon), kobo allows you to zoom, Google Play has bubble detection
13:50:58 <wendyreid> s/comicsology/comixology/
13:51:16 <MattChan_> duga: so we present the entire page, and then increase the size of the text while making it appear still part of the publication
13:51:26 <CircularKen> q+
13:51:30 <MattChan_> ... useful for low vision, but there is a limit to how big you can make the text
13:51:56 <wendyreid> ack CircularKen
13:52:01 <MattChan_> ... also allows you to read the text in order separate from the images, uses region navigation internally to do this
13:52:04 <duga> q+
13:52:25 <MattChan_> CircularKen: I read the EUAA article by laurab
13:52:51 <MattChan_> ... so should not have a single sensory way of reading the book
13:53:37 <MattChan_> ... rather than forcing aspects of a11y in FXL, which is difficult, can we consider a way of reading an FXL that depends on just the text in the document?
13:53:43 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:54:03 <MattChan_> wendyreid: we talked about this last week, i think, with multiple renditions
13:54:19 <MattChan_> ... there's this idea that we shouldn't have separate documents
13:54:29 <MattChan_> CircularKen: i would want it to be a single publication
13:54:47 <MattChan_> wendyreid: i think we should focus on making sure that whatever is going on behind the FXL IS that textual equivalent
13:55:11 <MattChan_> ... in terms of what we say in our best practices, etc. I think that's what we should be aiming for
13:56:20 <MattChan_> duga: about detecting when a book is FXL based on metadata, we kind of do that with our alert to people that certain content is better on large screens
13:56:50 <MattChan_> ... but also, just knowing that something is FXL doesn't necessarily tell you how accessible the book itself is
13:57:02 <MattChan_> ... don't want to encourage throwing out the good with the bad
13:57:22 <MattChan_> wendyreid: yes, reflowable books can be really poor from a11y point of view too
13:57:46 <CircularKen> q+
13:57:50 <wendyreid> ack CircularKen
13:57:58 <MattChan_> duga: even from RS side, knowing whether a book is FXL or not doesn't say anything about accessibility
13:58:44 <MattChan_> CircularKen: i think we can use Schema accessModes to describe things
13:59:07 <MattChan_> wendyreid: I'll have an outline of our progress for next week
13:59:22 <MattChan_> ... will get in touch with business group re. getting FXL sample content that we can share
13:59:34 <MattChan_> ... hopefully BNC can help us with data about FXLs
13:59:40 <MattChan_> ... thank you everyone, and thank you Ken!
13:59:46 <MattChan_> ... bye everyone!
13:59:58 <wendyreid> zakim, end meeting
13:59:58 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been wendyreid, MattChan_, laurab, dkaplan, duga, CharlesL, gpellegrino
14:00:00 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:00:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/20-epub-fxl-minutes.html Zakim
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14:00:03 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, wendyreid; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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14:00:10 <wendyreid> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:00:57 <wendyreid> rrsagent, bye
14:00:57 <RRSAgent> I see no action items