17:55:10 RRSAgent has joined #silver 17:55:10 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/04/16-silver-irc 17:55:12 RRSAgent, make logs Public 17:55:13 Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group 17:55:33 Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group 17:55:33 present: 17:55:33 chair: Shawn, jeanne 17:55:33 present+ 17:55:34 zakim, clear agenda 17:55:34 rrsagent, make minutes 17:55:34 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/16-silver-minutes.html jeanne 17:55:34 q? 17:55:34 agenda cleared 17:55:50 q- Wilco 17:56:02 present+ 17:56:53 agenda+ reminder of upcoming meetings 17:56:53 agenda+ drafting responses to WCAG3 Issues 17:56:53 agenda+ agenda and details on 29 April Joint AGWG - Silver meeting 17:56:53 agenda+ Bronze Silver Gold options 17:57:02 agenda+ reminder of survey 17:57:40 agenda order is 1,5,2,3,4 17:58:56 laura has joined #silver 17:59:01 jennifer_strickland has joined #silver 17:59:05 present+ 17:59:23 Chuck has joined #silver 17:59:46 present+ 18:00:11 PeterKorn has joined #silver 18:00:37 JF has joined #silver 18:00:43 agenda? 18:00:46 Present + 18:00:49 agenda? 18:00:51 present+ 18:00:57 SuzanneTaylor has joined #silver 18:02:01 Lauriat has joined #silver 18:02:04 Present+ 18:03:19 Francis_Storr has joined #silver 18:03:24 present+ 18:03:43 Jemma has joined #silver 18:04:02 present+ 18:04:07 present+ 18:04:11 scribe: sajkaj 18:05:05 It's my first week at MITRE and my brain is kaput. 18:05:26 present+ 18:05:28 present+ Laura_Carlson 18:05:36 js: Put the 29th in your calendars! oAM, 1PM, and 5PM Boston! 18:05:40 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Meetings/vFtF_2021 18:06:13 AngelaAccessForAll has joined #silver 18:06:21 janina: The new calendar tool from W3C may be useful now. 18:06:21 present+ 18:06:26 janina: Live now. 18:06:34 w3c calendar can also have a link to the minutes 18:06:48 agenda? 18:06:52 RickBoardman has joined #silver 18:06:57 zakim, next item 18:06:57 agendum 1 -- reminder of upcoming meetings -- taken up [from jeanne] 18:07:24 zakim, close this item 18:07:24 agendum 1 closed 18:07:25 zakim, next item 18:07:26 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:07:26 5. reminder of survey [from jeanne] 18:07:26 agendum 5 -- reminder of survey -- taken up [from jeanne] 18:07:29 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-silver/2021Apr/0060.html 18:07:42 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcag3-weekly-responses-survey/ 18:07:46 js: A survey for us all 18:07:58 js: This is issue processing 18:08:24 ca: I created, and is next Tuesday's agenda, 20 April 18:08:46 ca: Link in first question that will pull up items with a draft response to consider in the telecon 18:09:14 ca: Request is to agree with all, or choose other and make a comment regarding your concerns or proposed changes 18:09:31 ca: Notes he's crafted the 4 in the current survey 18:10:18 I cannot access the survey 18:10:20 js: Asks whether everyone can access the survey, especially people in via CG? 18:10:59 Where is the survey, please? 18:11:29 I'm getting "Not Allowed" 18:11:32 ca: Also asks any CG people to check if can access ... 18:11:52 rick: Can access everything! 18:11:58 Thank you 18:12:17 jennifer_strickland: Seeing the survey but no response options ... 18:12:29 ca: Do you see instructions in a link? 18:12:31 js: Yes 18:12:32 q+ 18:12:47 ca: So, one must use the link to go forward 18:13:06 ca: Either accept all, or make comment with specifics 18:13:25 KimD has joined #silver 18:13:33 present+ 18:13:34 ack Peter 18:13:47 pk: Looking at survey and IBM comments ... 18:14:01 pk: Is there plan to break up their doc like was done with ITI? 18:14:23 ca: Yes, this is just one item where we were able to get to a response already 18:14:30 ack pe 18:14:35 zakim, next item 18:14:35 agendum 2 -- drafting responses to WCAG3 Issues -- taken up [from jeanne] 18:15:29 zakim, take up item 3 18:15:29 agendum 3 -- agenda and details on 29 April Joint AGWG - Silver meeting -- taken up [from jeanne] 18:15:42 JF_ has joined #silver 18:15:54 js: Invites people to look at ... 18:16:07 https://github.com/w3c/silver/labels/status%3A%20needs%20proposal 18:16:24 js: Current list of issues ready for a proposal response draft 18:16:35 s/proposal/proposed/ 18:16:59 js: Recalls Alastair reviewed the process in some detail at our Tuesday AM call 18:17:20 js: Important that declining should include reasons 18:17:21 Francis_Storr has joined #silver 18:17:32 s/declining/declining to agree/ 18:18:09 js: And always remember to be respectful and professional in our responses. 18:18:24 ca: Especially with persons outside W3C, but really always 18:18:46 js: Notes that Chuck has labeled his responses as "draft," 18:18:56 ca: That's important and we should be sure to do that 18:19:30 js: Also, when begin working on a comment, remove label that says "needs proposal" and assign it to yourself. 18:19:45 js: If you run into a permissions issue, send your github nick to cooper@w3.org 18:19:52 send requests for Github access to cooper@w3.org 18:20:30 js: Reason for removing "needs proposal" is to avoid more people taking up the same issue response draft with no coordination 18:21:07 js: Please keep looking at the "needs proposal" sort, and help us with proposal drafts. This will help immensly 18:21:30 js: This should also help support more asyncronous participation 18:21:47 zakim, take up item 4 18:21:47 agendum 4 -- Bronze Silver Gold options -- taken up [from jeanne] 18:21:58 agenda? 18:22:15 zakim, take up item 3 18:22:15 agendum 3 -- agenda and details on 29 April Joint AGWG - Silver meeting -- taken up [from jeanne] 18:22:35 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Meetings/vFtF_2021 18:22:38 js: We have agenda for bronze/silver/gold meeting ... 18:23:23 js: We are taking comments assigned to editors relating to conformance and breaking it down for b/s/g discussion 18:23:41 js: we'll start with testing discussion 18:24:06 js: we will break this into topics athey'll be available in advance and will be posted in advance 18:25:40 Session 1 18:25:40 Context of meeting and short summary of AGWG and Silver Merge plans 18:25:40 Testing comments and building blocks of testing 18:25:40 Session 2 18:25:40 Building blocks of scoring 18:25:40 Session 3 18:25:40 Requirements of what we want in Conformance and how to assess the proposals for Conformance 18:25:41 Options of Bronze Silver Gold document 18:25:54 q? 18:26:00 Q+ 18:26:06 js: Notes it's all on the agenda page which will continue to get updates 18:26:09 q+ 18:26:38 ack peter 18:26:55 pk: Double checking that BSG options is the Google doc with some low teens number of options? 18:26:58 ack p 18:26:58 js: Yes! 18:27:07 js: We're up to 13! 18:27:10 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BjH_9iEr_JL8d7sE7BoQckmkpaDksKZiH7Q-RdDide4/edit# 18:27:29 Jemma: Sounds very good, but will be missing the sessions, trying to understand link between 1st and 2nd sessions ... 18:27:49 ack Jemma 18:28:03 JustineP has joined #silver 18:28:23 js: Notes one may have different tests for html vs a mobile app 18:28:43 js: But once test is in hand one evaluates how one does passing the tests 18:29:02 js: At the outcome level you get a score number that is averaged from individual tests 18:29:15 Dropping for my conflict... 18:29:27 q+ 18:29:40 js: Reason for extra scoring level is for the ability to make all scores averagable in a fair manner 18:30:24 js: Idea of outcome level is more related to outcome 18:30:58 ack RickBoardman 18:31:07 janina: Please re-explain! 18:31:20 Testing happens at the technology level 18:31:26 Scoring is at the Outcome level 18:31:32 rick: Yes, also not understanding yet, can we get one sentence summaries of the pieces? I could volunteer to work on that 18:31:52 js: We should re-examine the explanations that Rachael did 18:32:10 https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/#tests 18:32:52 Tests provide ways to check that methods and techniques have been followed. Tests include step-by-step instructions on evaluating the method based on the technology being used. Tests may vary by technology as needed. Tests specify the unit being tested and the approach to scoring for that test. 18:32:55 js: reads from link ... 18:32:56 https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/#test-scoring 18:33:06 Each method includes information on how to score individual instances of the test. The testing results for methods inform the rating of the related outcome. 18:33:27 https://w3c.github.io/silver/guidelines/#outcome-rating 18:33:39 https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/#conformance-levels and https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/#outcomes-structure 18:33:42 js: Recalls good example re XR 18:34:15 https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/#captions 18:35:06 js: Looking at speech and nonspeech audio ... 18:35:40 js: Run test at the tech level it's for, then a translation process level that brings into a rating that would be comparable to an unrelated guideline like plain lang 18:35:50 Q+ 18:36:02 janina: Rating/score might be a useful distinction to make 18:36:26 rick: Volunteers again to try and help make it a bit more newbie friendly 18:36:46 js: Accepts and will forward anything useful that comes up 18:36:46 +1, thank you, Rick! 18:36:47 ack JF 18:37:24 jf: Is this good time to dive into scoring details? 18:37:30 js: No, not just now 18:37:48 zakim, next item 18:37:48 agendum 2 -- drafting responses to WCAG3 Issues -- taken up [from jeanne] 18:38:02 agenda? 18:38:11 zakim, close this item 18:38:11 agendum 2 closed 18:38:12 I see 1 item remaining on the agenda: 18:38:12 4. Bronze Silver Gold options [from jeanne] 18:38:14 zakim, next item 18:38:14 agendum 4 -- Bronze Silver Gold options -- taken up [from jeanne] 18:38:14 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BjH_9iEr_JL8d7sE7BoQckmkpaDksKZiH7Q-RdDide4/ 18:39:02 js: Asks SL to lead discussion ... Are there ones we haven't yet reveiwed 18:39:05 sl: I believe 3 to go 18:39:18 sl: Believe we stopped at 11 18:39:27 sl: So maybe 2 18:39:40 topic: Option #12 18:39:48 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BjH_9iEr_JL8d7sE7BoQckmkpaDksKZiH7Q-RdDide4/edit#heading=h.juk4rs86lt47 18:40:05 I can do it 18:40:22 js: Believe it came from PK 18:40:37 sl: Ah, yes and we wanted to review with him present ... 18:40:43 js: Postpone? 18:40:48 sl: Let's start with 13 18:40:54 TOPIC: Option #13 18:41:16 sl: Makato did walk us through the results so we've had a start 18:41:19 Option 13 it is. Option 13 from Results of the Attendees Survey - Japanese Webinar on FPWD 18:41:32 sl: This was outcome from a Japanese conversation Makato translated into English for us 18:41:36 WCAG 2.x Level AA too difficult, prefer something more like - A → Bronze AA → Silver [something higher] → Gold 18:41:54 sl: Suggesting Level A approx = to Bronze 18:42:13 sl: Then items in AA would be Silver; and a higher standard Gold 18:42:18 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kX6DnXftI9VSrK9wgTTOqlkFp9KE4OCGxQqgDiAUcTc/edit#heading=h.fc4xg3cwwi2o 18:43:12 sl: One pro is that AA is too hard to meet in Japan 18:43:24 sl: Hoping for a more feasible standard 18:43:37 sl: But why would be a question we woult to have an answer for 18:43:45 q+ to say that this could be addressed by changing minimum score for bronze 18:43:46 sl: Some cons ... 18:43:54 sl: Fairness with categories unaddressed 18:44:06 sl: Could be addressed by reducing minimum scoring for Bronze 18:44:12 ack jeanne 18:44:12 jeanne, you wanted to say that this could be addressed by changing minimum score for bronze 18:44:44 js: There has been conversation whether 3.5 is the correct number for achieving Bronze 18:45:00 js: It was arbitrary at first, and intended to get the conversation going 18:45:13 js: Subgroups weren't necessarily consistent 18:45:31 js: Some groups included AAA at 4; others addressed AA at 4 18:45:49 js: Mainly because we ran out of time for publication 18:46:02 s/publication/publication deadline/ 18:46:33 js: We have discussed in discussing how to handle AAA; one outcome was to reduce the score--phps 2.5 18:46:55 js: That would support AAA at 4 at outcome 18:47:16 js: Theoretically we could also address some of the Japanese concerns that way 18:47:33 js: Thought it doesn't address Bronze = A 18:48:11 sl: Moved could be addressed to 'issue to work through' 18:48:27 sl: and we need to know why AA is to hard in Japan, so we can solve the right problem 18:49:10 for Option 13 : Issues to Work Through - Could be addressed with the FPWD by reducing the minimum point score for Bronze. - Identify the barriers that some geographies have in implementing WCAG - AA - Needs looking more into what makes WCAG 2.x AA too difficult to meet 18:49:32 janina: Was it because they were not able to get a translation of the spec? Couldn't get ARIA into japanese? that might find a sponsor to resolve. 18:49:35 Janina: Screen readers not translating to Japanese and not knowing what to do? Was that topic part of this? 18:49:41 jeanne: That's on the "accessibility supported" conversation. 18:49:52 jeanne: A good question we need to get to, but not today. 18:50:28 sl: Looks more an overall complexity of getting to AA -- can't tell exactly why? Alkl or nothing? In which case not a problem as long as scoring takes that into account 18:50:38 sl: We'll work with Makato to understand this better 18:51:06 Jemma: Recall because hard to understand as written 18:51:39 sl: So we may already be making good progress on this, but we'll double check the details 18:52:05 q+ 18:52:10 azlan: The difficulty is from the engineering point of view, correct? 18:52:27 azlan: Are the outcomes difficult? Isn't that what matters? 18:52:36 +1 18:52:42 sl: +1 18:52:42 ack Chuck 18:52:54 ca: Not so sure the survey was engineering based 18:53:02 yes, they are accessibility evaluators 18:53:03 Q+ to note its not always about AT 18:53:16 in Japan 18:53:23 sl: A reason to dig deeper--to avoid making assumptions on the why 18:53:31 ack JF_ 18:53:31 JF_, you wanted to note its not always about AT 18:53:51 jf: Notes not always about AT; some things don't require AT e.g. captions 18:54:46 +5 18:55:16 KimD has left #silver 18:55:31 zakim, bye 18:55:31 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been jeanne, Azlan, jennifer_strickland, ChrisLoiselle, PeterKorn, Lauriat, Francis_Storr, Jemma, sajkaj, SuzanneTaylor, 18:55:31 Zakim has left #silver 18:55:34 ... Laura_Carlson, AngelaAccessForAll, KimD 18:55:35 rrsagent, make minutes 18:55:35 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/16-silver-minutes.html sajkaj 18:55:40 Azlan has left #silver 19:14:42 sajkaj has left #silver 19:16:29 laura has joined #silver 20:52:31 johnkirkwood has joined #Silver