IRC log of silver-functional on 2021-04-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:02:27 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/04/16-silver-functional-irc
12:02:41 [joconnor]
trackbot, start meeting
12:02:41 [trackbot]
Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
12:03:10 [JakeAbma]
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12:03:31 [joconnor]
trackbot, start meeting
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Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
12:03:46 [JakeAbma]
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bsze5rAu-6tkWBTGyrcm4tdsGvZAaEBBUCDsQZngl2k/edit#gid=39173941
12:03:48 [trackbot]
Sorry, MichaelC, I don't understand 'trackbot is still not set up'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
12:04:21 [MichaelC]
meeting: A11Y Functional Needs work session
12:04:28 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, make log world
12:04:38 [MichaelC]
present+
12:04:43 [joconnor]
present+
12:04:45 [JakeAbma]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit#
12:04:50 [JakeAbma]
present+
12:04:53 [CharlesHall]
present+
12:05:30 [joconnor]
scribe: joconnor
12:05:53 [joconnor]
JA: Discusses user needs, a la usefulness of master list
12:06:10 [joconnor]
Other groups are looking forward to seeing this work happen
12:06:41 [joconnor]
Jake thinking about previous work, and also what boundaries should be...
12:06:49 [joconnor]
should they cover criteria etc
12:07:09 [joconnor]
MC: The criteria or the needs had to be written a certain way?
12:07:16 [joconnor]
JA: <shares screen>
12:08:51 [joconnor]
Discusses the creation of user needs
12:09:21 [CharlesHall]
visible and hidden content must be in parity
12:09:21 [joconnor]
MC: Content should be equivalent
12:09:44 [joconnor]
JA: A thing may be accessible but not match, due to a11y name diffs
12:10:04 [joconnor]
MC: MIssion statements vs user needs
12:10:17 [CharlesHall]
**Jake, I am so happy you are here
12:10:28 [joconnor]
MC: These kinds of exploration are useful
12:10:51 [joconnor]
MC: Josh and I were doing a top down approach
12:11:17 [joconnor]
you are looking bottom up
12:11:21 [joconnor]
we need to do both
12:11:50 [joconnor]
MC: Maybe we need to look at bottom up and see what we get
12:12:01 [joconnor]
q+ to support looking at that
12:12:13 [joconnor]
MC: Could be helpful with gaps
12:12:37 [joconnor]
Top down is helpful for generating diffs, and seeing things we may not have figured
12:13:01 [joconnor]
If we can't map a clear user need to this guidance then we may not have needed it
12:13:04 [joconnor]
ack me
12:13:04 [Zakim]
joconnor, you wanted to support looking at that
12:13:39 [CharlesHall]
q+
12:13:46 [CharlesHall]
https://www.nngroup.com/articles/user-need-statements/
12:13:52 [joconnor]
JOC: Looking at this a different way could be helpful
12:14:28 [joconnor]
MC: Defining terms is whats needed?
12:14:34 [joconnor]
JOC: Yes.
12:14:51 [joconnor]
JA: I'm wondering what the user needs are, under the SCs
12:15:26 [joconnor]
JA: THere may be two needs that have to work together.
12:16:29 [joconnor]
JA: Describes plus and minus of various approaches to definitions
12:17:22 [joconnor]
q+ to restate the initial scope of the work
12:19:09 [MichaelC]
q+
12:19:16 [joconnor]
ack charles
12:19:28 [joconnor]
CH: I put a link in IRC..
12:20:24 [joconnor]
We are speaking around the need for a definition in a dual broad and granular way, or a narrow contextual user need
12:21:20 [joconnor]
We could approach user need in the context of use
12:21:45 [joconnor]
JA: Did you think of how to mould that into a master list?
12:21:56 [joconnor]
we have a lot of situations to cover
12:22:41 [joconnor]
CH: I think we are saying the same things, I'm ok with some ambiguity, as to where they are being applied.
12:23:26 [MichaelC]
q+ to mention avoiding problems
12:23:26 [joconnor]
ack me
12:23:27 [Zakim]
joconnor, you wanted to restate the initial scope of the work
12:23:32 [MichaelC]
q+ to ask about non-a11y user needs
12:23:38 [joconnor]
JOC: +1 to Charles
12:24:22 [joconnor]
https://www.gov.uk/service-manual/user-research
12:24:36 [joconnor]
https://www.gov.uk/service-manual/user-research/start-by-learning-user-needs
12:24:38 [MichaelC]
q+ to ask how much to focus on Silver / W3C defs vs attempting to find global ones
12:25:03 [MichaelC]
q+ to consider a descriptive rather than prescriptive approach
12:25:48 [joconnor]
http://raw.githack.com/w3c/apa/user-needs-restructure/fast/index.html#collected-user-needs
12:26:30 [MichaelC]
q+ to mention in-development vs final
12:26:37 [MichaelC]
ack me
12:26:37 [Zakim]
MichaelC, you wanted to mention avoiding problems and to ask about non-a11y user needs and to ask how much to focus on Silver / W3C defs vs attempting to find global ones and to
12:26:40 [Zakim]
... consider a descriptive rather than prescriptive approach and to mention in-development vs final
12:27:10 [joconnor]
JOC: We do need get on the same page, with user needs - whether its from Gov.uk or NN as a template
12:27:39 [joconnor]
MC: I wonder how much we need to look at a11y needs on one layer, and usability needs on another
12:28:31 [joconnor]
Operating a control is a usability need...
12:28:52 [joconnor]
but if there is an issue on a deeper level for a user with diff AT that may be different
12:29:04 [CharlesHall]
q+ to usability v accessibility
12:29:43 [joconnor]
MC: I've been thinking of user needs as a proscriptive list, or is it a descptive list.
12:29:53 [joconnor]
q+ to talk about descriptive list
12:30:06 [joconnor]
MC: It could be added to...
12:30:27 [joconnor]
Should that be in Silver etc, ours may not be the exclusive authorative list
12:30:41 [joconnor]
We may need to couple with other work
12:30:45 [joconnor]
ack charle
12:30:45 [Zakim]
CharlesHall, you wanted to usability v accessibility
12:30:46 [JakeAbma]
q+
12:31:21 [joconnor]
CH: That is the line between the user need and the access need etc
12:31:36 [joconnor]
<discusses - a given need and functional need layer>
12:31:55 [joconnor]
The later describes the result and what the outcome of not being able to do something may be.
12:31:59 [joconnor]
MC: LIke it
12:32:03 [joconnor]
ack me
12:32:03 [Zakim]
joconnor, you wanted to talk about descriptive list
12:35:09 [joconnor]
JOC: FAST isn't normative and should provide overall guideance to provide information for those who dont know much about a11y and are developing specs
12:35:29 [joconnor]
JA: If we look at our list..
12:35:38 [joconnor]
<presents spreadsheet>
12:36:55 [MichaelC]
q+
12:37:09 [CharlesHall]
q+
12:37:13 [MichaelC]
q+ to advise not taking current list too literally
12:37:35 [MichaelC]
q+ to say it might be best just to define and work with different levels
12:37:39 [joconnor]
q+ to speak to the potential redundancy of some of the FAST items
12:37:45 [joconnor]
ack jak
12:38:06 [joconnor]
JA: Some of these items may be on the same level.
12:38:18 [joconnor]
There may also be a way bigger list
12:38:26 [joconnor]
JA: So what do y'all think?
12:38:43 [MichaelC]
ack me
12:38:43 [Zakim]
MichaelC, you wanted to advise not taking current list too literally and to say it might be best just to define and work with different levels
12:39:03 [joconnor]
MC: I say don't assume that this list is totally authorative..
12:39:16 [joconnor]
your analysis is helpful
12:39:33 [joconnor]
We may need to work in various levels of detail - we may be better doing that..
12:39:47 [joconnor]
maybe not worry about too formal defs of what goes where..
12:41:03 [joconnor]
JA: Can we use this layered approach as a way to create user needs?
12:41:22 [joconnor]
Levels can be, 1 - you can use content, 2 - navigation etc
12:41:31 [joconnor]
So the user need may have several parts
12:41:58 [joconnor]
MC: I've an editorial role - I don't have lists with only one sub item
12:42:06 [joconnor]
we may have multiple items..
12:42:13 [joconnor]
This could be a useful proposal
12:42:17 [joconnor]
ack char
12:42:38 [joconnor]
CH: I appreciate the question of granularity...
12:42:53 [joconnor]
but I think these examples are more broad
12:43:03 [joconnor]
I'd change the wording as I think they are diff things...
12:43:29 [joconnor]
What they need is the user need, how they do that is different - functional
12:43:40 [joconnor]
navigation and interaction are two distinct things
12:43:45 [joconnor]
so they should be higher level
12:44:07 [joconnor]
challenging to define and measure and vary
12:44:20 [joconnor]
CH: Higher level example is a good.
12:44:30 [joconnor]
JOC: +1 to charles
12:47:31 [joconnor]
q?
12:47:33 [joconnor]
ack me
12:47:33 [Zakim]
joconnor, you wanted to speak to the potential redundancy of some of the FAST items
12:47:41 [joconnor]
JOC: <made some points>
12:48:41 [joconnor]
MC: Am not sure of how to proceed.
12:49:00 [joconnor]
JOC: Lets pick some of these user needs and see if agree on the common sets of terms etc
12:49:23 [CharlesHall]
the primary or high-level scope of a user need should probably be singular purpose, like operate a control
12:50:18 [MichaelC]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eJkgXqbh7dx3uD6XAy8XAANmwfbbVZ5GKb_gbsUdkVs/edit#heading=h.n89ecixaq6rg
12:51:10 [joconnor]
MC: Lets use the Functional needs doc
12:52:30 [joconnor]
MC: Lets walk through the list, we can edit as we go etc
12:52:55 [joconnor]
CH: What is the concensus on users plural vs user
12:55:12 [joconnor]
JOC: We are addressing potential groups of related needs. Suggested the plural
12:55:27 [joconnor]
JA: I think of them as singular.
12:56:55 [joconnor]
JOC: We need to use the correct term - worthwhile spending time on figuring it out
12:57:09 [joconnor]
JA: There are single vs group dynamic
12:57:25 [joconnor]
CH: I don't see it as a group - but hear what Josh is saying
12:57:44 [joconnor]
The plural of user implies that the perception relates to more that one
12:58:02 [joconnor]
Plural implies multimodality
12:58:48 [joconnor]
JA: Should the need not be upfront?
12:58:54 [joconnor]
CH: Depends on context
12:59:15 [CharlesHall]
+ to plural for now
12:59:51 [joconnor]
+1 to plural for now
13:06:11 [joconnor]
<brainstorming>
13:58:34 [joconnor]
MC: V productive session
13:58:46 [joconnor]
Do we want to continue in this format time?
13:58:50 [joconnor]
What works?
13:59:00 [joconnor]
CH: This time works well for me.
13:59:13 [joconnor]
JA: Me too, we need two hours, wfm
13:59:22 [joconnor]
JOC: Works for me
13:59:37 [joconnor]
MC: We will skip the Thurs slot
13:59:43 [joconnor]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:59:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/16-silver-functional-minutes.html joconnor
15:04:00 [Zakim]
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