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12:03:46 <JakeAbma> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bsze5rAu-6tkWBTGyrcm4tdsGvZAaEBBUCDsQZngl2k/edit#gid=39173941
12:03:48 <trackbot> Sorry, MichaelC, I don't understand 'trackbot is still not set up'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
12:04:21 <MichaelC> meeting: A11Y Functional Needs work session
12:04:28 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make log world
12:04:38 <MichaelC> present+
12:04:43 <joconnor> present+
12:04:45 <JakeAbma> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit#
12:04:50 <JakeAbma> present+
12:04:53 <CharlesHall> present+
12:05:30 <joconnor> scribe: joconnor
12:05:53 <joconnor> JA: Discusses user needs, a la usefulness of master list
12:06:10 <joconnor> Other groups are looking forward to seeing this work happen
12:06:41 <joconnor> Jake thinking about previous work, and also what boundaries should be...
12:06:49 <joconnor> should they cover criteria etc
12:07:09 <joconnor> MC: The criteria or the needs had to be written a certain way?
12:07:16 <joconnor> JA: <shares screen>
12:08:51 <joconnor> Discusses the creation of user needs
12:09:21 <CharlesHall> visible and hidden content must be in parity
12:09:21 <joconnor> MC: Content should be equivalent
12:09:44 <joconnor> JA: A thing may be accessible but not match, due to a11y name diffs
12:10:04 <joconnor> MC: MIssion statements vs user needs
12:10:17 <CharlesHall> **Jake, I am so happy you are here
12:10:28 <joconnor> MC: These kinds of exploration are useful
12:10:51 <joconnor> MC: Josh and I were doing a top down approach
12:11:17 <joconnor> you are looking bottom up
12:11:21 <joconnor> we need to do both
12:11:50 <joconnor> MC: Maybe we need to look at bottom up and see what we get
12:12:01 <joconnor> q+ to support looking at that
12:12:13 <joconnor> MC: Could be helpful with gaps
12:12:37 <joconnor> Top down is helpful for generating diffs, and seeing things we may not have figured
12:13:01 <joconnor> If we can't map a clear user need to this guidance then we may not have needed it
12:13:04 <joconnor> ack me
12:13:04 <Zakim> joconnor, you wanted to support looking at that
12:13:39 <CharlesHall> q+
12:13:46 <CharlesHall> https://www.nngroup.com/articles/user-need-statements/
12:13:52 <joconnor> JOC: Looking at this a different way could be helpful
12:14:28 <joconnor> MC: Defining terms is whats needed?
12:14:34 <joconnor> JOC: Yes.
12:14:51 <joconnor> JA: I'm wondering what the user needs are, under the SCs
12:15:26 <joconnor> JA: THere may be two needs that have to work together.
12:16:29 <joconnor> JA: Describes plus and minus of various approaches to definitions
12:17:22 <joconnor> q+ to restate the initial scope of the work
12:19:09 <MichaelC> q+
12:19:16 <joconnor> ack charles
12:19:28 <joconnor> CH: I put a link in IRC..
12:20:24 <joconnor> We are speaking around the need for a definition in a dual broad and granular way, or a narrow contextual user need
12:21:20 <joconnor> We could approach user need in the context of use
12:21:45 <joconnor> JA: Did you think of how to mould that into a master list?
12:21:56 <joconnor> we have a lot of situations to cover
12:22:41 <joconnor> CH: I think we are saying the same things, I'm ok with some ambiguity, as to where they are being applied.
12:23:26 <MichaelC> q+ to mention avoiding problems
12:23:26 <joconnor> ack me
12:23:27 <Zakim> joconnor, you wanted to restate the initial scope of the work
12:23:32 <MichaelC> q+ to ask about non-a11y user needs
12:23:38 <joconnor> JOC: +1 to Charles
12:24:22 <joconnor> https://www.gov.uk/service-manual/user-research
12:24:36 <joconnor> https://www.gov.uk/service-manual/user-research/start-by-learning-user-needs
12:24:38 <MichaelC> q+ to ask how much to focus on Silver / W3C defs vs attempting to find global ones
12:25:03 <MichaelC> q+ to consider a descriptive rather than prescriptive approach
12:25:48 <joconnor> http://raw.githack.com/w3c/apa/user-needs-restructure/fast/index.html#collected-user-needs
12:26:30 <MichaelC> q+ to mention in-development vs final
12:26:37 <MichaelC> ack me
12:26:37 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to mention avoiding problems and to ask about non-a11y user needs and to ask how much to focus on Silver / W3C defs vs attempting to find global ones and to
12:26:40 <Zakim> ... consider a descriptive rather than prescriptive approach and to mention in-development vs final
12:27:10 <joconnor> JOC: We do need get on the same page, with user needs - whether its from Gov.uk or NN as a template
12:27:39 <joconnor> MC: I wonder how much we need to look at a11y needs on one layer, and usability needs on another
12:28:31 <joconnor> Operating a control is a usability need...
12:28:52 <joconnor> but if there is an issue on a deeper level for a user with diff AT that may be different
12:29:04 <CharlesHall> q+ to usability v accessibility
12:29:43 <joconnor> MC: I've been thinking of user needs as a proscriptive list, or is it a descptive list.
12:29:53 <joconnor> q+ to talk about descriptive list
12:30:06 <joconnor> MC: It could be added to...
12:30:27 <joconnor> Should that be in Silver etc, ours may not be the exclusive authorative list
12:30:41 <joconnor> We may need to couple with other work
12:30:45 <joconnor> ack charle
12:30:45 <Zakim> CharlesHall, you wanted to usability v accessibility
12:30:46 <JakeAbma> q+
12:31:21 <joconnor> CH: That is the line between the user need and the access need etc
12:31:36 <joconnor> <discusses - a given need and functional need layer>
12:31:55 <joconnor> The later describes the result and what the outcome of not being able to do something may be.
12:31:59 <joconnor> MC: LIke it
12:32:03 <joconnor> ack me
12:32:03 <Zakim> joconnor, you wanted to talk about descriptive list
12:35:09 <joconnor> JOC: FAST isn't normative and should provide overall guideance to provide information for those who dont know much about a11y and are developing specs
12:35:29 <joconnor> JA: If we look at our list..
12:35:38 <joconnor> <presents spreadsheet>
12:36:55 <MichaelC> q+
12:37:09 <CharlesHall> q+
12:37:13 <MichaelC> q+ to advise not taking current list too literally
12:37:35 <MichaelC> q+ to say it might be best just to define and work with different levels
12:37:39 <joconnor> q+ to speak to the potential redundancy of some of the FAST items
12:37:45 <joconnor> ack jak
12:38:06 <joconnor> JA: Some of these items may be on the same level.
12:38:18 <joconnor> There may also be a way bigger list
12:38:26 <joconnor> JA: So what do y'all think?
12:38:43 <MichaelC> ack me
12:38:43 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to advise not taking current list too literally and to say it might be best just to define and work with different levels
12:39:03 <joconnor> MC: I say don't assume that this list is totally authorative..
12:39:16 <joconnor> your analysis is helpful
12:39:33 <joconnor> We may need to work in various levels of detail - we may be better doing that..
12:39:47 <joconnor> maybe not worry about too formal defs of what goes where..
12:41:03 <joconnor> JA: Can we use this layered approach as a way to create user needs?
12:41:22 <joconnor> Levels can be, 1 - you can use content, 2 - navigation etc
12:41:31 <joconnor> So the user need may have several parts
12:41:58 <joconnor> MC: I've an editorial role - I don't have lists with only one sub item
12:42:06 <joconnor> we may have multiple items..
12:42:13 <joconnor> This could be a useful proposal
12:42:17 <joconnor> ack char
12:42:38 <joconnor> CH: I appreciate the question of granularity...
12:42:53 <joconnor> but I think these examples are more broad
12:43:03 <joconnor> I'd change the wording as I think they are diff things...
12:43:29 <joconnor> What they need is the user need, how they do that is different - functional
12:43:40 <joconnor> navigation and interaction are two distinct things
12:43:45 <joconnor> so they should be higher level
12:44:07 <joconnor> challenging to define and measure and vary
12:44:20 <joconnor> CH: Higher level example is a good.
12:44:30 <joconnor> JOC: +1 to charles
12:47:31 <joconnor> q?
12:47:33 <joconnor> ack me
12:47:33 <Zakim> joconnor, you wanted to speak to the potential redundancy of some of the FAST items
12:47:41 <joconnor> JOC: <made some points>
12:48:41 <joconnor> MC: Am not sure of how to proceed.
12:49:00 <joconnor> JOC: Lets pick some of these user needs and see if agree on the common sets of terms etc
12:49:23 <CharlesHall> the primary or high-level scope of a user need should probably be singular purpose, like operate a control
12:50:18 <MichaelC> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eJkgXqbh7dx3uD6XAy8XAANmwfbbVZ5GKb_gbsUdkVs/edit#heading=h.n89ecixaq6rg
12:51:10 <joconnor> MC: Lets use the Functional needs doc
12:52:30 <joconnor> MC: Lets walk through the list, we can edit as we go etc
12:52:55 <joconnor> CH: What is the concensus on users plural vs user
12:55:12 <joconnor> JOC: We are addressing potential groups of related needs. Suggested the plural
12:55:27 <joconnor> JA: I think of them as singular.
12:56:55 <joconnor> JOC: We need to use the correct term - worthwhile spending time on figuring it out
12:57:09 <joconnor> JA: There are single vs group dynamic
12:57:25 <joconnor> CH: I don't see it as a group - but hear what Josh is saying
12:57:44 <joconnor> The plural of user implies that the perception relates to more that one
12:58:02 <joconnor> Plural implies multimodality
12:58:48 <joconnor> JA: Should the need not be upfront?
12:58:54 <joconnor> CH: Depends on context
12:59:15 <CharlesHall> + to plural for now
12:59:51 <joconnor> +1 to plural for now
13:06:11 <joconnor> <brainstorming>
13:58:34 <joconnor> MC: V productive session
13:58:46 <joconnor> Do we want to continue in this format time?
13:58:50 <joconnor> What works?
13:59:00 <joconnor> CH: This time works well for me.
13:59:13 <joconnor> JA: Me too, we need two hours, wfm
13:59:22 <joconnor> JOC: Works for me
13:59:37 <joconnor> MC: We will skip the Thurs slot
13:59:43 <joconnor> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:59:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/16-silver-functional-minutes.html joconnor
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